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It seems as if we're straying a bit here, and getting into arguments that are not beneficial to our cause. Bickering (if that's not what's going on, I apologize) or heated disagreements between members of this guild can give lifers more bullshit ammo against us. Please, can we resolve this and work our way toward something more constructive?

Joselle, thanks for reminding me and the rest of us to cool down. I took a day off to cool down a bit, when I get too pissed off I just fail to have any words at hand.

With that said...

Tahpenes, you can "have fun" with comparing me to a religious convert, and to a "Stereotypical vegan"."Have fun with that". wink There's few things more upsetting to me than a close-minded "omnivore" and especially vegetarian when it comes to veganism...

You and anyone else can use the most "intellectual philosophies", "arguments", etc, to justify and excuse your current habits which perpetuate ignorance and suffering... or you could use your same intellectual capabilities to ask yourself how you can contribute LESS to animal suffering, the environment, and human suffering.

I don't think most non-vegans aren't as mean/uncompassionate as they are, generally ignorant. I can forgive ignorance, but I do not get down with arrogance. I find it very arrogant to excuse and justify the continuation of consuming animal and animal products rather than learning how it is so destructive on so many levels. (Destructive on animals, the environment, HUMANS too)

Oh, and the "movements" towards "happy meat" being a conscientious effort on omnivore's part is a real myth. The bottom line for omnivores who want "happy meat" has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with caring for animals personal well-beings... Rather, it's something close to a "better quality piece of meat" at the end, which means that the animal is still a commodity, a piece of property, a "something" rather than a "someone". But hey, at least there's less hormones, antibiotics and stuff in it, right? And the mark-ups for "happy meat" is ridiculously high, and TRULY classist. IF you want to say veganism is classist? Only the yuppies can afford to buy "happy meat" (organic, natural fed, hand-massaged, etc etc)... and there is not enough room or resources on the Earth to provide most of humanity "happy meat". This is why the conventional farming is so prevalent in the first place. However, if the whole world was vegan, we would be able to literally feed the whole world and much more, since it takes at least 10 times more land to raise plants in order to feed or milk an animal so it can get killed on someone's plate.


Oh, and here's an article I just got to read today: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/18902.html

Well well well, wouldn't you know it... the rising costs of food.. part of the reason that the article did not do a good job mentioning is because raising animals for food or by-products is taxing on the natural resources we have. You don't need me to point it out. You can see the evidence yourself. But if people were actually more guilty about being "omnivores", then people could no longer feel good, right? Actually, Meat/eggs and dairy is subsidized by the government on the whole so people are actually not paying the entire "real" price of eating dead animals and pus juice.

"happy meat" is such bunk... like, what do people expect, the cow to happily commit suicide for the privilege of jumping on your plate? NO!! All beings have their self interests to LIVE, and be FREE.

Oh, and for the record, while I have never been on "ground zero" at a conventional animal farm... I have smelled one where I used to live. I would pass it by on the school bus each day to and from school. It was a couple acres away from the road. A chicken farm. It smelled HORRIBLE. I always covered my nose under my shirt and held my breath. The locals in the area would comment that you would eventually get used to the smell, right? I NEVER DID. You can only imagine how much more terrible the smell is and the concentration of filth right at the site. You *know* a place cannot be clean if it smells THAT stinkin' bad!! It's no wonder the property values close to an animal farm hit rock bottom!

RoseRose, you are probably oblivious to your own omnivore habits and how gratuitous it is. I was. I thought I was "Eating less meat than my family" because I had meat once a day or less, whereas they had meat with practically every meal. Or, thinking that just because it doesn't have meat in it totally makes it "vegan". Well I hate to break it to everyone, but even consuming meat once a day or less is TOO much. Omnivores don't realize it, reducing animal product consumption is a step but it is NOT good enough.

Another thing about omnis... it's not that they just have the meat/dairy... the meat/dairy is typically the main focus of the meal, whereas everything else is a "side" item. (Being that even a "lean" chicken breast is comprised with 50% of more of fat, usually ALL saturated fat, is it any wonder we have an obesity epidemic?)

- the bean and cheese burritos have cheese in them, so that's animal cruelty and NOT vegan. We're assuming there is no lard in the beans. Vegetarian, maybe, but then again, vegetarianism is ...*sigh*... pretty half-assed.

- hummus is known to be vegan. Many ethnic foods have long traditions of vegan cuisines, and exotic flavors, unlike the rather bland "American" style foods. Just comes to show you that tasty vegan meals can be enjoyed by everyone and can be fun!

- tofu pad thai? It sounds vegan, but thai foods use fish stock/fish paste in a lot of their dishes, so watch out. Sometimes, a dish appears to be vegan but actually has animal cruelty in it, nonetheless it is easy to request to have it removed.

RoseRose, I can see how you are defensive to my attitude, as an "omnivore" majority. But if you tried for one second to set aside your entitled arrogant attitude towards eating meat= natural and omnivre=natural, then maybe you could learn a few things.

*as a note: I quote "omnivore" a lot in my post because I do not legitimize it as a valid human dietary "lifestyle" (it's a deathstyle, really. 1 out of 2 Americans will die of a heart attack... gee... wonder why.. :s ). Humans are only culturally "omni" and opportunistically omni (but we still have to cook dead corpses to eat it, we can't eat it raw unlike real omnivores and carnivores...). Humans are physiologically herbivores. >.<

I really don't feel like prattling away here >.<

Grip of Death, I have a two quick questions for you. Sorry if you already answered them, but your posts are so long. I skimmed through a couple of them but any answer you might have made to my questions didn't jump out at me.

The first question requires a little setup. Let's pretend for a moment that I raise chickens (just to be very clear, I don't actually raise chickens). In this little imagination exercise, I take good care of my chickens. I make sure they get good food, I make sure they have good living conditions, and all in all I make sure that they live good lives. Now, chickens, being what they are, lay eggs. What do you think should be done with these eggs? Keep in mind I can't raise an infinite amount of chickens. If I let all these eggs be fertilized and grow into chicks, some of them are going to die. Either they are going to overpopulate my farm and start starving/crowding each other out, or I'm going to have to kick some of them off my farm, where they will die one way or another. Maybe wild animals will eat them, maybe they won't be able to find food, maybe the climate is such that they can't survive on their own. Doesn't matter. So I keep the eggs from being fertilized. Would it be wrong for me to eat the eggs? To sell the eggs so that others might eat them? My chickens are not being harmed by my selling or eating eggs. Yes, I am benefiting from my chickens, but I don't think that benefiting from another being in inherently bad. If it was, all manner of human activity, from parenting to buying furniture, would be bad. I provide my chickens with food, shelter, and so on, and they provide me with eggs. What would be wrong with such a situation?

I guess what I'm asking is why someone should be vegan if they can be vegetarian while not harming animals so as to get animal products. Certainly I understand why you think killing animals for food is wrong (although I do eat meat), but I don't understand why vegetarianism would be bad if the animals involved were not being treated poorly.

And for my second question, assuming we all stopped eating meat and animal products, what do you think should be done with the animals? Keep in mind that if we just turned them lose, they would likely die of starvation, exposure, or be killed by predators. Animals that we use to provide us with food have been highly domesticated. They are ill adapted to survive in the wild. Just look at domesticated turkeys compared to wild turkeys. The color of domesticated turkeys alone marks them with a giant "come and eat me!" sign for predators.

The only question I have is how can we be physiologically herbivores? Predators eat meat. Herbivores eat plants. Herbivores have eyes in the sides of their heads, and predators have theirs in the front. Humans are builts as predators. We have sharp teeth. I know the dairy thing is unusual. Why can't I object to animal cruelty and still eat meat?

xd That phrase always makes me chortle!