Gay and ChristianIs there a such thing as a gay Christian?

[Sarcastic_Angel]

I don't think homosexuals can't be christian. of course they can, anybody can. And personally, I don't judge gay people. I think being gay is wrong, because of Sodom and Gamorah (did I spell that right?) but I have no problem with the people who are gay. it's there choice, their life. But Sodom and Gamorah was destroyed by God because of their sinful acts, including sexual practices with others of the same gender. doesn't that make it a sin?  

[Berezi]

scotch0069

THIS IS MY OPINION, im in training i guess you can call it, and if you wish it to be pursued pm me and i will do the research to get the biblical texts. BUT, when you get baptized it is a symbol to the world that you have chosen to follow Jesus Christ and to pick up your cross and follow him in to eternity. This means that though what you say is only words, your actions show what your heart is feeling. Now this is not to say that actions or works will save you NO. The works are a reaction to what has happened inside you. The works and actions are the proof to others of who you are following. And the works speak louder than any words, becouse from the over flow of the heart the mouth speaks. and i believe with that, that the body follows. (in short, if you take the word to the roots, and you follow Jesus whole heartly the intention to even think to do anything against the laws or rules or guidelines will seem "unright")

God left a thorn in Paul's side for whatever reason. The texts make it obvious that he had a sin he constantly struggled with. His heart was in the right place, and that was to rely on God's redemption and grace. God's grace is sufficient enough for Paul and for us as well.

Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. Debates like this, while helpful, are not necessarily so useful. Is not God's grace sufficient enough for us? Will not the God of heaven and earth redeem us from our sins? Is not God gracious enough to forgive us when we misunderstand Him when He knows He has our hearts?

There are things I'm unsure how to understand anymore. At the same point, God will correct me when I am with Him and I am satisfied in that. =)  

[Elenielle]

If God condemns acts of homosexuality, why would He create His children in such a way? God doesn't put temptation in our paths that would be too much, and to temp someone who has been 'made' (as is born) homosexual, the temptations to act on it would be too great. God doesn't condemn something, then go create the person to go on doing it. We are not born murderes, thieves, liars, cheaters, etc; those are all a choice. Some people say they can't help but kill. Some people say they can't help but be homosexual. I truly believe that if a person asked God to take away the desires, He would. God's not one to let His children walk in sin. This is why I do not think that God created homosexuality.

Just a side note on a comment made by scotch0069 (bolded only to catch attention xd ). Where in the Bible does it say that there will be no prophets after Jesus (who was not a prophet)? It says the contrary, in fact. "Now to each manifestation if the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is [...] prophecy" 1 Corinthians 12:8-10; "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy" 1 Corinthians 14:1; "God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets [...]" 1 Corinthians 12:28; "It was he would gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets [...]" Ephesians 4:11.

So yeah. Paul says the complete opposite to that, on numerous occasions.
 

[SinfulGuillotine]

x_Hikari_x

If God condemns acts of homosexuality, why would He create His children in such a way? God doesn't put temptation in our paths that would be too much, and to temp someone who has been 'made' (as is born) homosexual, the temptations to act on it would be too great. God doesn't condemn something, then go create the person to go on doing it. We are not born murderes, thieves, liars, cheaters, etc; those are all a choice. Some people say they can't help but kill. Some people say they can't help but be homosexual. I truly believe that if a person asked God to take away the desires, He would. God's not one to let His children walk in sin. This is why I do not think that God created homosexuality.

I really love how some heterosexuals seem to think that they have a real understanding of someone else's sexuality. confused

If someone wants to believe that homosexual sex is a sin, then fine. Whatever. Have at it. At this point, I'm prepared to let people believe whatever makes them happy, so long as it doesn't interfere with me living my life.

Whether or not God created homosexuality, I can't say.

But don't tell me that I chose my sexuality, or that I could change it if I just "tried harder." Because I have tried. I've tried like you wouldn't believe. And I've hated myself for years because of it. But I'm still queer. It's not something that I wanted, chose, or asked for, and I couldn't tell you why I'm attracted to other men, but I am, and that's something that I'm going to have to live with.

Don't presume to know what I, as well as countless other homosexuals of the Christian faith, go through because people keep telling us that we can change. And then we wonder what kid of sick joke God is playing on us when no matter how hard we pray, or how many "de-gayifying" camps we attend, we still find ourselves hopelessly in love with someone of the same sex.

Believing that you can change your sexuality is a comfortable thing to think when you don't have to live it.  

[Elenielle]

I realize that I may have offended a few people, which is why I was hesitant to post here in the first place. But these are my views. I have many homosexual friends, and I love them to death. I don't preach fire and brimstone to them, I don't try to change them. It is just my understanding about who God is that makes me think like that. I may be wrong in my perception of Him, but I don't think anyone will really know until we get to Heaven.

But I don't really like being responded to in a hostile manner...if that was not the intent, then that's okay. Words and meanings become skewed over the internet. I was just posting my opinion, as it was asked for (not directly, of course) in the first post, and in the title of the thread. I am also prepared to let people believe whatever makes them happy.  

[SinfulGuillotine]

x_Hikari_x

I realize that I may have offended a few people, which is why I was hesitant to post here in the first place. But these are my views. I have many homosexual friends, and I love them to death. I don't preach fire and brimstone to them, I don't try to change them. It is just my understanding about who God is that makes me think like that. I may be wrong in my perception of Him, but I don't think anyone will really know until we get to Heaven.

But I don't really like being responded to in a hostile manner...if that was not the intent, then that's okay. Words and meanings become skewed over the internet. I was just posting my opinion, as it was asked for (not directly, of course) in the first post, and in the title of the thread. I am also prepared to let people believe whatever makes them happy.

I didn't mean to be an a**. If I came across that way (which I probably did), then I apologise.

And yeah, it's your opinion. And you're entitled to think that God lives in your iPod for all I care. The problem is that such an opinion isn't just offensive, but it's also extremely hurtful to people who have struggled a great deal with their faith and their sexuality. And to be told "Oh, you obviously brought this upon yourself and you could change if you just prayed and loved God more" hurts. A lot. And I'm not really sure that people who say those sorts of things realise how deeply hurtful it is.  

[Berezi]

x_Hikari_x

Some people say they can't help but be homosexual. I truly believe that if a person asked God to take away the desires, He would. God's not one to let His children walk in sin.

Tell that one to Paul.

The Apostle Paul - 2 Corinthians 12:7-10

To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I'm sure God helped Paul through it. But obviously, God didn't take it from Paul. God was simply Paul's strength to combat it.

Even if someone's sexuality is a sin, God may not necessarily change them. God may have other plans for that.

And honestly, I trust that my God is gracious. I am His child. There are some sins in my life I am too afraid to give to Him. But I trust that if I died right now, I would die with my salvation in tact because of God's grace. It is only by God's grace that I have it in the first place. Why would God bestow His grace on a sinner and then remove it because the sinner has sinned again? We are at war with ourselves until we reach heaven.  

[Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori]

I'm leaving the debate. It's pointless to argue over whether homosexuality is a sin or not, as arguing only causes more strife.

If anyone actually cares about whether or not homosexuality is a sin, feel free to PM me. By that I mean if you think you or a friend might be gay, not if you want your heathen-bashing bible-bat studded. Comprende?  

[Elenielle]

That's okay...we all sound horrible over the internet, it seems.

I realize that my opinion can be hurtful, but like I said, this is what I think and it's going to take a lot for me to change it. I think a part of Christianity is that it offends people; there are many things that can be hurtful to others about it. I think the key is not to let ourselves be offended by it, and in turn not be afraid to offend. When it comes down to it, Christianity is probably the most offensive thing there is.

And I'm not saying that homosexuals are going to hell. No, I believe that once covered by the Grace of God, if you keep it up and profess that Christ is Lord and all that fun stuff, that you're going to heaven. Regardless of who you are or what you've done; God isn't going to throw you out if you've lived your life for Him.

The 'thorn' in Paul's side wasn't sin. It was a messenger to torment him. Demonic oppression and sin are two different things. This was a lesson to Paul so that he knew that because Paul was weak, he didn't have the strength to fight of this foe. It was through God's strength that he was able to endure it. That is the point here; when we feel like we can't go on any further because life has got us down, we must rely on God, because it is then that we truly become strong.  

[Berezi]

x_Hikari_x

The 'thorn' in Paul's side wasn't sin. It was a messenger to torment him. Demonic oppression and sin are two different things. This was a lesson to Paul so that he knew that because Paul was weak, he didn't have the strength to fight of this foe. It was through God's strength that he was able to endure it. That is the point here; when we feel like we can't go on any further because life has got us down, we must rely on God, because it is then that we truly become strong.

Demonic oppression can manifest itself in lots of different ways, including constant struggles with certain sins. In fact, that happens quite frequently. Sometimes that's how the devil chooses to attack. But you're right in that it could be something other than sin, too.

But either way, the point still stands. The final part of what you said is what I'm trying to get at. We always have to rely on God to get us through things. Then we become strong. We trust that any person, whether a homosexual, a heterosexual, a liar, a thief, a gossip, a murderer, whatever can be saved by God's grace. Some things will be a battle. Some things God will choose to deal with at a later point in life. Either way God in His sovreignity will help us with sin.

But sometimes He does let sin linger for a bit, at least in my experience. That's usually been when I have so many scars to heal from that I can't handle all the scars being at once (because often times they must be re-opened to heal). Then when God has finished He begins a focused attack on the sin, though He usually knocks down the footholds the sin had in me while I healed from the other things.  

[[~mihael~]]

SinfulGuillotine

x_Hikari_x

If God condemns acts of homosexuality, why would He create His children in such a way? God doesn't put temptation in our paths that would be too much, and to temp someone who has been 'made' (as is born) homosexual, the temptations to act on it would be too great. God doesn't condemn something, then go create the person to go on doing it. We are not born murderes, thieves, liars, cheaters, etc; those are all a choice. Some people say they can't help but kill. Some people say they can't help but be homosexual. I truly believe that if a person asked God to take away the desires, He would. God's not one to let His children walk in sin. This is why I do not think that God created homosexuality.

I really love how some heterosexuals seem to think that they have a real understanding of someone else's sexuality. confused

If someone wants to believe that homosexual sex is a sin, then fine. Whatever. Have at it. At this point, I'm prepared to let people believe whatever makes them happy, so long as it doesn't interfere with me living my life.

Whether or not God created homosexuality, I can't say.

But don't tell me that I chose my sexuality, or that I could change it if I just "tried harder." Because I have tried. I've tried like you wouldn't believe. And I've hated myself for years because of it. But I'm still queer. It's not something that I wanted, chose, or asked for, and I couldn't tell you why I'm attracted to other men, but I am, and that's something that I'm going to have to live with.

Don't presume to know what I, as well as countless other homosexuals of the Christian faith, go through because people keep telling us that we can change. And then we wonder what kid of sick joke God is playing on us when no matter how hard we pray, or how many "de-gayifying" camps we attend, we still find ourselves hopelessly in love with someone of the same sex.

Believing that you can change your sexuality is a comfortable thing to think when you don't have to live it.

thank you! all those hetero's think that just because they read the bible they now everything about, am i wrong? the truth is that every one has a different perspective on things. I have prayed and prayed, and i am still gay. and to that hikari person, i want to no wich branch of christianity you are, because obviously we grew up in two ttly different branches. i tlked to my minister about this, i explained what i was going through, you know what he said. "You are what God made you, and don't you try to change that." that was when he told me of the once saved always saved thing. so any more arguments????  

[Elenielle]

It is quite fine if you refer to me as 'Hikari'. 'That hikari person' might be a mouthful xp

I am a pentecostal, and my dad's a pastor. Now that's only to point out that I know a little about the Bible and what it says. Differences in perspectives might be a bad thing. For instance, Phillipians 4:13 says "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength". Now, my perspective on that is that Jesus gives us strength to do things for His glory, and to further our relationship with Him. Someone else's perspective might be that it's physical strength, or that it gives us an excuse to do 'all things'.

The whole 'you are what God made you' might be a little off as well. I'm a murderer; God made me that way. Should I try to change it?

-

Yes, that is also what I believe, that demonic opression can include struggling with sin. However, my understanding of that might be a little different, which is probably where the misunderstandings are coming in...but I am afraid to express that opinion, because I know that I will get attacked by numerous people over it, and there's no use expressing it if it's going to make things worse.

I know I'm 'wussing out' but I'm sure you all know what it's like to have people 'bash' you for what you think.  

[scotch0069]

Berezi

scotch0069

THIS IS MY OPINION, im in training i guess you can call it, and if you wish it to be pursued pm me and i will do the research to get the biblical texts. BUT, when you get baptized it is a symbol to the world that you have chosen to follow Jesus Christ and to pick up your cross and follow him in to eternity. This means that though what you say is only words, your actions show what your heart is feeling. Now this is not to say that actions or works will save you NO. The works are a reaction to what has happened inside you. The works and actions are the proof to others of who you are following. And the works speak louder than any words, becouse from the over flow of the heart the mouth speaks. and i believe with that, that the body follows. (in short, if you take the word to the roots, and you follow Jesus whole heartly the intention to even think to do anything against the laws or rules or guidelines will seem "unright")

God left a thorn in Paul's side for whatever reason. The texts make it obvious that he had a sin he constantly struggled with. His heart was in the right place, and that was to rely on God's redemption and grace. God's grace is sufficient enough for Paul and for us as well.

Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. Debates like this, while helpful, are not necessarily so useful. Is not God's grace sufficient enough for us? Will not the God of heaven and earth redeem us from our sins? Is not God gracious enough to forgive us when we misunderstand Him when He knows He has our hearts?

There are things I'm unsure how to understand anymore. At the same point, God will correct me when I am with Him and I am satisfied in that. =)

Well, i see these conversations more of understanding the other perspective. I will agree that the internet misinterpets the words, because there is no body language to show how we feel when we are saying these words. So it is hard to convey thoughts without offending someone online, and back to the main idea of this post.. whee Sin is sin yes, and paul did have a thorn in his side BUT his actions shown that he would always pray to God to save him. Thats teh devotion. the world is a very decitful place. and its hard to tell fact from fiction. And not to stereotype, so please dont misunderstand, it seems that most people that try to argue that Homosexuality can frustrated because they dotn have a lot of people backing them, and their arch rival as one person put it, "heathen-bashing bible-bat studded christians" why i dunno, but it does get frustrating.  

[Berezi]

x_Hikari_x

Yes, that is also what I believe, that demonic opression can include struggling with sin. However, my understanding of that might be a little different, which is probably where the misunderstandings are coming in...but I am afraid to express that opinion, because I know that I will get attacked by numerous people over it, and there's no use expressing it if it's going to make things worse.

I know I'm 'wussing out' but I'm sure you all know what it's like to have people 'bash' you for what you think.

Not at all. =) You "wuss out" when you no longer take the time to think things through. You're not doing that at all, and you're doing the best you can to treat people respectfully. You're trying to understand.

I guess that is where we differ, though probably not as much as you think. The truth is, I'm not sure. What I believe first and foremost is that God won't let His children walk in sin. I am also sure that should His children not be able to completely free themselves from sin (whatever it may be), God will have mercy on them.

I know God has mercy on me though I have struggled with some sin for a very long time. If homosexuality or acting on homosexuality is a sin, I don't see why God should treat it differently. People say "oh, it's a lifestyle so if someone's doing it they are just embracing sin" but so's gossip. It's culturally accepted, and as a whole we do not fight it. We may think it's wrong, but we do nothing to change it. At the same point, we are trying to live for God (though admitedly not as hard as we should be). Somehow I don't think God would throw us in hell because we failed to stop gossiping because it's about the heart, not the letter of the law. It's intimate, but so is any sin.

I know the actions are a reflection of the heart. But let me ask you, are you perfect? Do your actions reflect a fallen person being redeemed by God? Is there chronic sin in your life? Does that mar the reflection somehow? And if it does, does it destroy it completely or simply lessen it a bit?  

[Berezi]

scotch0069

Well, i see these conversations more of understanding the other perspective. I will agree that the internet misinterpets the words, because there is no body language to show how we feel when we are saying these words. So it is hard to convey thoughts without offending someone online, and back to the main idea of this post.. whee Sin is sin yes, and paul did have a thorn in his side BUT his actions shown that he would always pray to God to save him. Thats teh devotion. the world is a very decitful place. and its hard to tell fact from fiction. And not to stereotype, so please dont misunderstand, it seems that most people that try to argue that Homosexuality can frustrated because they dotn have a lot of people backing them, and their arch rival as one person put it, "heathen-bashing bible-bat studded christians" why i dunno, but it does get frustrating.

Yeah. But realize that any true Christian, whether gay or straight, will pray to God on account of their sins and be devoted to Him.
And that is really true. How would you feel if the loudest voice of Christianity turned against you and all those who listen to it turned against you, too?