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 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:35 pm
marysservant Yes, I believe that to get to heaven you must have "true belief" in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, but, I believe that we must have our ability to sin "destroyed" in Purgatory, how else can we enter Heaven, what would stop us from sinning? We would have to be cleansed by God's Holy Fire. I do believe that, if I were Christian, I would believe in purgatory, however, I do not find it logically needed. If we can do anything through Christ (forgive, I don't know the exact wording or verse of this) then we can most certainly become perfect enough to enter heaven without purgatory. Purgatory simply offers a, seemingly more logical alternative. However, this alternative is logical, but it is not a logical must, see above.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:40 pm
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:42 pm
windswept_fury marysservant Matthew 12: 31-32 " Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or the age to come. " He'll go to Hell, basically. In this age, meaning life, and the age to come, meaning death.." No, that isn't what it means. It says that the man that speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or THE AGE TO COME. That must mean that some can be forginven in THE AGE TO COME otherwise that would not have been added to that verse. How can one in Hell be forgiven, as Hell is "the second death?"
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:44 pm
marysservant I found more scriptural evidence. "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27) How then, are we, filthy sinners, to enter the kingdom of Heaven? Through Jesus Christ of couse! Jesus does eliminate our sin, but, purgarory makes us so that we CANNOT sin. Revelations 21:27 " But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes abomination or a lie, but onyl those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." Only the believers shall enter Heaven. If you're gonna quote Scripture, quote it all - and correctly. You haven't posted a single correct verse yet. I've gotta go, don't take avantage of my lack of arguement. I'll be back first chance I can get.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:46 pm
windswept_fury Learn to look at more than one verse. 'Luke 12:57-59 " Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not depart from there till you have paid back every last mite (copper)." How does this help your argument? It makes it worse actually for you. The 'prison' is Purgatory and 'paying back every last copper' refers to us being cleansed for our sins. Because our sins are our debts to God, we must be removed of our debts.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:46 pm
It says "In the age to come" to emphasize the fact that he can't be forgiven. Not now, not ever.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:48 pm
windswept_fury marysservant I found more scriptural evidence. "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27) How then, are we, filthy sinners, to enter the kingdom of Heaven? Through Jesus Christ of couse! Jesus does eliminate our sin, but, purgarory makes us so that we CANNOT sin. Revelations 21:27 " But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes abomination or a lie, but onyl those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." Only the believers shall enter Heaven. If you're gonna quote Scripture, quote it all - and correctly. You haven't posted a single correct verse yet. I've gotta go, don't take avantage of my lack of arguement. I'll be back first chance I can get. I don't think you understand me, Purgatory is not a place where you spend eternity, it is a "pit stop" on the way to heaven where we can be cleansed and purified of our wickedness, we surely cannot bring any evil into Heaven! I also believe that the believers will go to Heaven, therefore, your statements don't do anything to help your argument.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:50 pm
i think everyone is entitled to thier own opinion
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:52 pm
DrummerGirl999 i think everyone is entitled to thier own opinion We are not discussing "opinions" we are trying to find out whose position is most consistant with scripture. There is no room for opinion.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:55 pm
chill out god loves you both heart
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:57 pm
chaoticpuppet marysservant Yes, I believe that to get to heaven you must have "true belief" in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, but, I believe that we must have our ability to sin "destroyed" in Purgatory, how else can we enter Heaven, what would stop us from sinning? We would have to be cleansed by God's Holy Fire. I do believe that, if I were Christian, I would believe in purgatory, however, I do not find it logically needed. If we can do anything through Christ (forgive, I don't know the exact wording or verse of this) then we can most certainly become perfect enough to enter heaven without purgatory. Purgatory simply offers a, seemingly more logical alternative. However, this alternative is logical, but it is not a logical must, see above. Yes, but if you aren't even Christian, why are you posting in this thread? I am trying to explain to Protestants how the Catholic Church is true, not to non-christians. And of course, we get to Heaven "through Christ" but our ability to sin must be destroyed. Basically, you are saying that some Christians have never sinned, ever since they became a Christian.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:59 pm
DrummerGirl999 chill out god loves you both heart Yes, as well as you. Peace be with you.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:02 pm
marysservant windswept_fury marysservant I found more scriptural evidence. "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27) How then, are we, filthy sinners, to enter the kingdom of Heaven? Through Jesus Christ of couse! Jesus does eliminate our sin, but, purgarory makes us so that we CANNOT sin. Revelations 21:27 " But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes abomination or a lie, but onyl those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." Only the believers shall enter Heaven. If you're gonna quote Scripture, quote it all - and correctly. You haven't posted a single correct verse yet. I've gotta go, don't take avantage of my lack of arguement. I'll be back first chance I can get. I don't think you understand me, Purgatory is not a place where you spend eternity, it is a "pit stop" on the way to heaven where we can be cleansed and purified of our wickedness, we surely cannot bring any evil into Heaven! I also believe that the believers will go to Heaven, therefore, your statements don't do anything to help your argument. Yes they do, you're just dense. Here's another good argument, maybe you'll actually see this one: Luke 23:39-43 "Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, " If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!" But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we recieve the due award of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, " Lord, remember me when You come into your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, " I tell the truth, today will be with Me in paradise." So, the thief, being killed for his sins, was with Jesus THAT DAY.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:05 pm
marysservant chaoticpuppet marysservant Yes, I believe that to get to heaven you must have "true belief" in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, but, I believe that we must have our ability to sin "destroyed" in Purgatory, how else can we enter Heaven, what would stop us from sinning? We would have to be cleansed by God's Holy Fire. I do believe that, if I were Christian, I would believe in purgatory, however, I do not find it logically needed. If we can do anything through Christ (forgive, I don't know the exact wording or verse of this) then we can most certainly become perfect enough to enter heaven without purgatory. Purgatory simply offers a, seemingly more logical alternative. However, this alternative is logical, but it is not a logical must, see above. Yes, but if you aren't even Christian, why are you posting in this thread? I am trying to explain to Protestants how the Catholic Church is true, not to non-christians. And of course, we get to Heaven "through Christ" but our ability to sin must be destroyed. Basically, you are saying that some Christians have never sinned, ever since they became a Christian. HGe's posting because he's searching for what's right. You can at least show him God's love, and accept his posts.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:14 pm
An exerpt from " Roman Catholcism" by Loraine Boettner
" The Doctrine of Purgatory rests on the assumption that while God forgives sin, His justice nevertheless demands that the sinner must suffer the full punishment due to him for his sin, before he will be allowed to enter Heaven. But such a distinction is illogical, even according to human reasoning. For it manifestly would be unjust to forgivce a criminal the guilt of his crime and still send him to prison to suffer for it."
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