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 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:26 pm
who would specialize in that though? then again, seal clubbing is an industry, vivisection exists... damn this place is ******** up
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:06 pm
McPhee Getting back to the hippocratic oath, I think it was necessary to change it, if only to get rid of some timely inconsistencies with the trends of "now", just like I would expect everything to be changed and updated to fit into the times.
Peer: As for bodily domain, all People have it, and whether you think the fetus is a person or not is unprovable, because it's our seperate opinions on the issue, of course.
I think doctors have a difficult profession. Maybe sometimes what they have to do medically goes against what they believe, and that's unfortunate. But doctors have to do messy work-- I just think that if there were more just... specialists in abortion (though I'd prefer no need for abortion of course), it would make it easier for doctors to not have to do work that they find morally objectionable, or... not in the span of the field they were hoping to specialise in, if that makes sense.
Who said I didn't think the fetus is a person? confused Do you even KNOW what my opinion is or have you and others just been operating under a false assumption?
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:24 pm
if it is a person, then it is murder... or is all the "it's not a person so abortion isn't murder" stuff bullshit?
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:32 pm
divineseraph if it is a person, then it is murder... or is all the "it's not a person so abortion isn't murder" stuff bullshit? Abortion isn't murder, in the legal sense. It is killing, but it isn't murder. Even if abortion were illegal, it most likely wouldn't be classified as murder. Doesn't the PLG Info thread even point out that abortion would be considered manslaughter and not murder? I thought it did...
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:45 pm
why manslaughter? that doesn't make no sense, since abortion is an intentional killing, not an accident like a car crash or a hunting accident.
and i'm alluding to hearing so many times that abortion isn't murder because feti aren't people...
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:21 pm
divineseraph if it is a person, then it is murder... or is all the "it's not a person so abortion isn't murder" stuff bullshit? It's not "bullshit". I just don't believe that a fetus is not a person. Other choicer's do; that's really a personal call since personhood cannot at this time be perfectly determined.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:36 pm
  We used to have a big sticky on it that Beware made, but it got consolidated into one thread, which is why I can't find anything anymore. I'm too old for my own good xd .
Murder is a legal term. Or a flock of crows, whichever one suits you best.
Murder is: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Manslaughter: The unlawful killing of one human by another without express or implied intent to do injury.
The difference is the lack of malice, however, malice is defined as such:
Malice: The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another.
If abortion is illegal, and doing this illegal act will result in harm to the fetus, then there is malice involved. If a cause or reason was legally just when it came to aborting, it wouldn't be illegal in the first place and wouldn't count as either manslaughter or murder.
Of course I'm not a lawyer, or even pre-law. Heck, I'm a highschool dropout so it might not work that way. As I understand it though, and as it was explained to me by my mother's friend (who is a lawyer) when I was getting help on a school paper awhile back, it's very, very possible it would be considered murder. 
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:22 pm
ThePeerOrlando2 divineseraph if it is a person, then it is murder... or is all the "it's not a person so abortion isn't murder" stuff bullshit? It's not "bullshit". I just don't believe that a fetus is not a person. Other choicer's do; that's really a personal call since personhood cannot at this time be perfectly determined.
But if personhood is there, how can death be justifiable?
You can't just kill another person under your convenience just because it's your 'choice'.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:45 pm
McPhee ThePeerOrlando2 divineseraph if it is a person, then it is murder... or is all the "it's not a person so abortion isn't murder" stuff bullshit? It's not "bullshit". I just don't believe that a fetus is not a person. Other choicer's do; that's really a personal call since personhood cannot at this time be perfectly determined.
But if personhood is there, how can death be justifiable?
You can't just kill another person under your convenience just because it's your 'choice'. You assume once again that Life is somehow more precious than basic rights and freedoms, and that any sort of right to life trumps the right to bodily domain. I do not view that as the case.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:07 pm
ThePeerOrlando2 McPhee ThePeerOrlando2 divineseraph if it is a person, then it is murder... or is all the "it's not a person so abortion isn't murder" stuff bullshit? It's not "bullshit". I just don't believe that a fetus is not a person. Other choicer's do; that's really a personal call since personhood cannot at this time be perfectly determined.
But if personhood is there, how can death be justifiable?
You can't just kill another person under your convenience just because it's your 'choice'. You assume once again that Life is somehow more precious than basic rights and freedoms, and that any sort of right to life trumps the right to bodily domain. I do not view that as the case.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:16 am
Lorysa ThePeerOrlando2 McPhee ThePeerOrlando2 divineseraph if it is a person, then it is murder... or is all the "it's not a person so abortion isn't murder" stuff bullshit? It's not "bullshit". I just don't believe that a fetus is not a person. Other choicer's do; that's really a personal call since personhood cannot at this time be perfectly determined.
But if personhood is there, how can death be justifiable?
You can't just kill another person under your convenience just because it's your 'choice'. You assume once again that Life is somehow more precious than basic rights and freedoms, and that any sort of right to life trumps the right to bodily domain. I do not view that as the case. Yes. I'm personally Pro-Life Lorysa, but I'm also a soldier. And the first (and foremost in my mind) duty of a soldier is to obey the spirit of the Law of the Land, and protect the rights of his people. That is to say; I am (err, was) supposed to follow the President's orders, however, if his orders violate the Constitution or violate the rights of the people, I have every reason to disobey those orders. I was not, and no soldier is, a puppet for the President and his will; I was a soldier of the people. My duty was to them; not to any office or particular person who held it at the time.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:43 pm
a soldier for the people who works to let people die?
huh.
but why IS bodily integrity worth more than a life? a life, remember, is for several deccades. pregnancy lasts 9 months, many of which will not be noticeable and the last few of which the child could be removed and live.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:52 pm
divineseraph a soldier for the people who works to let people die? huh. but why IS bodily integrity worth more than a life? a life, remember, is for several deccades. pregnancy lasts 9 months, many of which will not be noticeable and the last few of which the child could be removed and live. Indeed. Similar to Christian's who bomb clinics and claim it's in the name of God, or who set me on fire for being an atheist, or who shoot doctors, or etc etc. wink Huh indeed. surprised And what good is life if not lived freely? I'd rather die a freeman then live as a slave.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:52 pm
am i claiming to be a christian clinic bomber? no. are you claiming to fight for the people, yet for the deaths of the very same you believe to be people?
i'm not asking you to give up freedom. i'm not asking to chain yourself down, nor anyone down. that is paranoia.
i ask for the protection of these people who cannot protect themselves. they are created (in most cases) through known, consensual means. they are not invaders or slave-drivers, they are, or so you claim, people who are disadvantaged and have no choice. their position is forced upon them by either irresponsibility or an accident.
more realistically, THEY are they slaves, and abortion is their lynching.
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:16 pm
There are violent people on both sides, so where the clinic bomber comment is coming from, I don't know.
But you assume that one basic right trumps another basic right too, only with you, it's in reverse. So why is your opinion the one that should be made law?
I still don't understand why if it's just about removing the fetus, they do abortion at all. Why not just do a c-section at all stages of the pregnancy where the fetus is big enough to be seen and removed, take it out, and let it die naturally? Sure, it'd die anyway, but in one instance, active killing goes on, and in the other, it's just plain removing something. If a woman doesn't have the right to have something killed and then removed, then why should it be legal earlier on? Because it's less invasive? But abortion is still less invasive in the third trimester, and I'm told it's also safer, than a C-section or birth.
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