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Nikolita
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:59 am


Yi Min
CeraD
But people are missing the good things about getting circumcised.
-Circumcision lowers risk of cervical cancer in females
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/2754/cervical042002.htm
-It reduces the risk of HIV Transmission From Women to Men
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/2754/hivjan20-2005.htm
These are just the things Ive found that are pretty damn important to me, now mind you, Im not going to drop my man because he isnt circumcised but these medical points are good things to think about before you jump on the "OMG ITS CRULE!!oneone11" bandwagon.
The more Ive thought about it, the more I dont really know what Im going to do with my own boys when the time comes.
In the end its something we're going to disscuss at great length.


If you look into any real medical sites: those are disproven as MYTHS.


Agreed. I also never came across any of those things when I was writing my paper about female circumcision. Actually, because in many countries the wound is so unclean and infected, a woman almost always gets bacterial infections from the urine or blood, which can leave her sterile or with other medical/health problems.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:05 am


http://www.bygirlsforgirls.org/2002/fgm.html

This is a good article with viable sources. Scroll down to see her sources.
She also drew nice pictures to help explain.

Yi Min


Ceanne

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:46 am


[ Message temporarily off-line ]
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:48 pm


[ Message temporarily off-line ]

Yi Min


Ceanne

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:00 pm


Yi Min

If you couldn't trust anything on the internet College professors wouldn't tell you it was ok to use sites as sources. As long as they are viable. You can't place the blame of cervical cancer on an uncircumsized p***s. ANYONE can get cervical cancer, even if you don't have a family history of it. Go ahead, ask your doctor.

Just because the site I gave was by teens, the article I showed had viable sources, other sites that are considered trust worthy. The girl didn't make any of it up.

We aren't getting any one "riled" up. And it's perfectly normal to worry about these things years before having children (even in teen years). It something interesting to talk about. I never said it was a simple choice.

Female circ. came from me misreading your post and for that I apologize.


You may not have meant for it all to become a witch hunt, but thats quite a bit what it has become. Now theres a bunch of teens screaming about how its cruel and shouldnt be done under any circumstance, its kinda become the next abortion issue where if you choose to have it done it all of a sudden makes you this horrible person.
0o
At least thats what Im getting from this thread.
So what if I choose to have this done to my sons? Its an in the home issue that others shouldnt have a say over.
Now I have people Iming me and pestering me about it for no good reason.
Just because you dont believe its true doesnt meant that it isnt, I actually talked to my doctor a bit about it and he still supports it.
<<
Besides, you cant have a proper topic if you just play one side of it. ********, Im probably not going to be getting the boys done when I have them since my fiance isnt either, but I hate it when a topic is so one sided like this. It irks me and misrepresent subjects.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:57 pm


Cera, sorry for misinterpreting your post. I saw something about female circumcision too, but that was my bad.

I never said circumcision was bad, I just am against female circumcision. I don't like the idea of male circumcision either, but it's not my business if you decide to do that to your future sons or not. I don't really care if you do, it's your choice. Do what you want. smile

Give me a list of the people who are PM'ing you on Gaia, and I will give them a warning. You can PM me with the list if you'd like. I will also go edit the rules announcement now.

Nikolita
Captain


Nopenname

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:13 am


Cera, the main thing is this, while it is POSSIBLE for an unclean/sexually active/HPV carrying man to increase his woman's RISK for cervical cancer it does not mean that millions of other men who are simply uncircumsized will cause it in other women. (HPV being the NUMBER ONE LEADING cause of cervical cancer.)

And having sex without a condom will give you a higher chance of HIV or ANY STD regardless of the cut of your man's p***s.

It really depends on the language and scope of the study. For instance Being uncircumsized does put a male at greater risk of UTIs HOWEVER, one in four adults of ANY gender has a UTI and doesn't know it, and half of all children regardless of gender will have a UTI before the age of one. AND pregnant women get UTIs like they're going out of style. SO in my opinion the data that an uncirced male is at a POSSIBLE larger risk of a UTI doesn't mean squat.

People who smoke are at a greater risk for lung cancer, not all of them get it. Women who are obese have a higher risk of gestational diabetes, not all of them get it. Further, being Uncirced has FAR FAR less risks as smoking and being obese.

I go back to my original statement that in looking at all the data presented by both sides I'm convinced neither side has a compelling enough arguement. In that case I choose not to circ any future sons I have.



_____________________
Now, Female Genital Mutilation, as done in underdeveloped tribal parts of the world, where the entirety of the clitoris, and parts of the labia are removed and then the woman is stitched up leaving a small hole for urination, essentially removing all future sexual pleasure she may recieve....ENTIRELY NOT comparable to Male Circumcision and sould be called what it is: Genital Mutilation.

There IS female Circumcision, a Body Modification specialist can perform it on you if you like. The removal of the clitoral hood. Many women opt for this body mod because it increases sexual stimulation.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:29 am


Nopenname
I go back to my original statement that in looking at all the data presented by both sides I'm convinced neither side has a compelling enough arguement. In that case I choose not to circ any future sons I have
.

Actually in my heart of hearts this is what I believe as well, we might do what my fiance's parents did and do one but not the other. I just realllyyyyyy dont like seeing and overwhelming shouting out for one side and not the other when theyre both perfectly decent ways to handle things.

Ceanne


Nikolita
Captain

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:45 pm


Sorry Nopenname, didn't mean to get them mixed up. You're right, it's Female Genital Mutilation, just in my college class the two were used almost interchangably. My apologies. sweatdrop
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:13 pm


As a mom who did the resurch. Its cleaner, I sat in the room while they did it. it doesn't hurt them and I had a bigger problem with it then they did one of my sons almost slept through it. the only reasdon that they cry is because they arn't aloud to eat 3 hours before leaving them hungry and mad. there is nothing wrong with it and if I have more boys I will do it with them too. Their father isnt circumsiced and he was fine with it done also. I think its all about prefrence.

Angel Fangs


requietum ac adamo amor

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:01 am


I'm uncut, and I must say I loath the process.

My cousins are cut, and every time I see them it urks my stomach.

The cleaner thing is complete ******** bull.

I'm uncut, and I'm quite freaking sure I'm cleaner than most cut males.

The lasting longer thing is bull aswell.
I havent been in a v****a before, but my father has and he is uncut. I took the time to asl him, and even though my mother and him split up a long time ago it wasn't because of their sex life. Him and my mother both testify that he lasted as long as she needed if not longer on some occasions than her.

The it looks better situation is what I hate the most. I ******** hate it when people back away rom me like I have the plague whenever I mention I'm uncut.

The condom thing is a bit true, my father says even though he is uncut he can get a condom on, but he also says it takes practice.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:02 am


Sites like that should never be completely trusted. They are one-sided propaganda that causes misunderstandings and keeps people ignorant. I can make a "Mothers For Tobacco" and write all the benefits of cigarettes and if someone came to my site and had little education, like you did for obviously not researching more on this, they would completely believe me and my fellow mothers. You posting this propaganda is even worse people you don't know how to decipher the truths from the blantantly obivous lies.

I'm going to post scientific information and link the sites or books that this information was taken from. Please take special care to the sources and see how none of them are PRO anything or CON anything.

First of all, to clarify: Circumcision is the removal of the foreskin ? the retractable tube of skin that covers and protects the head (glans) of the p***s
Niarah Z`Ress
"Routine circumcision of babies in the United States did not begin until the Cold War era. Circumcision is almost unheard of in Europe, Southern America, and non-Muslim Asia. In fact, only 10 to 15 percent of men throughout the world are circumcised."


First of all, This is true if and ONLY IF, you're talking about the majority of natives who live there. Today, with our constant imigration, hundreds or religions and cultures are coming to live in places like Europe, Asia, etc and there are a lot of religions that date back thousands of years, like Judaism (Jewish), Coptic Christians and Muslims, and there are other regilions and/or cultures that do this. In the United States today, about 60 percent of baby boys are circumcised, which means about 40 percent are not. However, in some European, Asian, and South American countries, it is much more common to be uncircumcised. Teenwire Although the second fact about how many males are circumcised in the world, it should also be noted that there are a lot of people in this world without access to medical help or education. How to you expect someone to get their child circumcised or not if they are living in poverty someone in Asia, South America, Africa, Europe, etc? They may not even know the option exists in life. That's like finding the percentage of vegetarians in the world. Some people only have access to grians and fruit and so, since the definition of a vegetarian fits under them, the stastic is obscured. Statistics are rarely acturate to begin with.

Niarah Z`Ress
"Circumcision started in America during the masturbation hysteria of the Victorian Era, when a few American doctors circumcised boys to punish them for masturbating. Victorian doctors knew very well that circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the p***s. Nevertheless, they were soon claiming that circumcision cured epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, elephantiasis, tuberculosis, eczema, bed-wetting, hip-joint disease, fecal incontinence, rectal prolapse, wet dreams, hernia, headaches, nervousness, hysteria, poor eyesight, idiocy, mental retardation, and insanity. "


When America was born, it was a nortoriously religious country, and it still is. In the bible, there are many references to circumcision. In Genesis 17 of the Old Testament God is said to have directed Abraham to circumcise himself, his son and all other males in his house. Cirp Genesis 14, And the uncircumcised man whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Since most of the educated people were Christians and read the bible, and therefore, doctors, it's not wonder they thought that circumcision would do all of that. They religion mention it with negative conotations. This is the same with other religions as well. This point makes no diference in the debate as to whether circumcision is right or not. A lot of practices started the wrong way because of lack of knowledge, and we still accept them or, they have become known to help with different things. Leeches, for example, were thought to cure a thousand things, but now they are used for other things in the medical comunity.

Niarah Z`Ress
"In fact, no procedure in the history of medicine has been claimed to cure and prevent more diseases than circumcision. As late as the 1970s, leading American medical textbooks still advocated routine circumcision as a way to prevent masturbation.5 The antisexual motivations behind an operation that entails cutting off part of the p***s are obvious. "


Who cares? That's not a valid reason for establishing that circumcision is wrong. So people thought it would stop masturbation. There are people today who still believe it is wrong and/or imoral to touch yourself. It's not to make them anti-sexual. It was to make sure that they weren't horny all the time. This is why there are female circumcisions done in uneducated parts of the world. They circumcise the female by cutting of the clitoris so she can't be aroused and therefore she will stay a virgin until marriage. Masturbation was looked as the step before sex before marriage and since America was a country of bible followers, and still is to some extent, Masturbation in their minds was wrong. circumcision was NEVER forced upon the child and parents by authorities such as doctors or police. It was also the family's decision. You make it sound like doctors are forcing people to circumcise their child and that's untrue. Educated or not, it is still the parents decision. And the crap about letting them decide - you make decision for your child all throughout life: He won't eat junk food. No television until he's 10, etc etc. Why not let them choose those things? Why? Because they don't have the mental capacity at that point to make a decision. Why not let your child decide about all the vacinations shots instead of you deciding for him to get it? And, by the way, you are wrong about the 1970s. Influenced by Preston, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), in 1971, issued a statement that "[t]here are no valid medical indications for circumcision in the neonatal period. This marked the beginning of the end of America's infatuation with male circumcision. Cirp

Niarah Z`Ress
"The natural p***s requires no special care. A child's foreskin, like his eyelids, is self-cleansing. Forcibly retracting a baby's foreskin can lead to irritation and infection. The best way to care for a child's intact p***s is to leave it alone."


Okay, First of all. This quote is manipulated to sound all-encompassing, but it isn't. It says retracting a BABY's Foreskin is bad. Yes it is because it's not made to retract until 3 or 4 when it starts to balloon and then fully retract at puberty. This has NOTHING to do with the reason about cleanlines, but I will go through the quote anyways...

One of the things that an uncircumcised baby has an advantage of is that they won't have a circumcision wound that needs to heal and therefore, there's less of a chance of infection. Breastfed babies excrete oligosaccharides in their urine. The oligosaccharides prevent bacterial adhesion to the foreskin and other uroepithelial tissue,so if bacterial adhesion is prevented the risk of urinary infection is greatly reduced Cirp: Procedures First of all, it should be noted that a lot of woman CAN'T breastfeed and some choose not to. Although this may be true to babies who are breastfed, those who are don't get oligosaccharides and thus, no protection from bacterial adhesion. What that means is that bacteria can catch within the foreskin (as it retracts to allow the baby to pee) and then it will get stuck in the foreskin. Now, This won't necessarily harm the baby. I doubt a forest of bacteria will grow there, but it will get smelly and sweaty. But enough about the babies, what about teenagers?

Non-religious circumcision is usually done in thoughts of the teenage boy. Once they reach puberty, the foreskin is now retractable and there are now reasons to worry.After puberty, however, the sexually active male should wash his p***s before and after sexual intercourse. This applies to both circumcised and intact males. Sexually active males may contract HPV through sexual intercourse. Cirp: Hygeine (HPV is human papilloma virus, btw, and it can lead to penile cancer). You can't control your teenage boy. If he's lazy in the shower and doesn't clean his p***s properly, infections are bound to happen. Urinary Tract infections, just like in girls who don't clean, can happen. Also, their sex life may hurt since who wants to have a dirty, smelly p***s in them? Trust me, I know what that smells like, and it is NOT pretty.

Niarah Z`Ress
"Circumcision denudes: Depending on the amount of skin cut off, circumcision robs a male of as much as 80 percent or more of his penile skin. Depending on the foreskin's length, cutting it off makes the p***s as much as 25 percent or more shorter. Careful anatomical investigations have shown that circumcision cuts off more than 3 feet of veins, arteries, and capillaries, 240 feet of nerves, and more than 20,000 nerve endings.31 The foreskin's muscles, glands, mucous membrane, and epithelial tissue are destroyed, as well."


First of all, where did they get this info? I did extensive research on whether or not circumcision affects p***s size and so far they say it's not signifcant. Certainly not 25%.They must have taken this statistc from Australia. In Australia, they circumcisions are harsher and often take more than necessary off of the p***s. Also, They said that circumcision CAN cut up to as much as 80%, but Circumcision removes (on average) one third of the penile skin system (sensitive inner and outer preputial layers), including the peripenic dartos muscle, the frenar band, and part of the frenulum.

For everyone's information, there are three types of circumcision procedures: Plastibell Method, Gomco Method, and Tara-KLamp Method. More information on these three procedures can be found here. But you must recognize that a lot of surgeries are the same. Things swell, things bleed, but things get better. Pain is not really a reason to not circumcise a baby since they'll get over it as they would any other surgery. And there are always risks. Like any surgical procedure, circumcision has some risks. However, the rate of problems after circumcision is low. Bleeding and infection in the circumcised area are the most common problems. Sometimes the skin of the newly exposed glans becomes irritated by the pressure of diapers and ammonia in the urine. The irritation is usually treated with petroleum ointment (Vaseline) put directly on the area. This problem will usually lessen after a few days. Family Doctor Some people also claim that circumcision either lessens or heightens the sensitivity of the tip of the p***s, decreasing or increasing sexual pleasure later in life. But neither of these subjective findings has been proven to be true. Complications of newborn circumcision are uncommon, occurring in between 0.2% to 3% of cases. Of these, the most frequent are minor bleeding and local infection, both of which can be easily treated by your child's doctor. Kids Health And, by the way, some of those things mentioned that they lose are wrong. Foreskin does have muscles...Besides, so he loses some viens and stuff, the same goes if you have to get your appendix taken out, and so forth. They don't make the child unable to function properly.

I was a little harsh on you, but it's because you chose a propaganda website. There are better resources out there than a site that was made by mothers who could care less about the other side of the argument. The best websites are ones that discuss both sides of the issue and it really bugs me when someone decides to show people those sites. Sure, you wanted to bring up the topic, but now you have exposed people, some of whom are uneducated in this respect, to a one-sided website.

Oni-Angel
I don't know...I prefer cut guys because they last longer and they can wear condoms.
I had a boyfriend who said that he physically could not wear a condom because of his foreskin. After trying to get the condom thing to work, I realised he was either right or able to make himself soft at the thought of wearing a condom. My cut boyfriend, however (he's only partially circumsized) can wear condoms fine.
I've also talked to other "uncut" people who have told me that they cannot physically wear condoms because the foreskin rubs against the p***s in a natural way that the condom inhibits....I'm not sure if this is completely true, but I thought it interesting to point out.


You're incorrect and your old boyfriend probably wasn't taught how to put on a condom. With a un-circumcised p***s, you pull down the foreskin and then apply the condom to it. So basically, for the duration of sex with a condom, the p***s is technical circumcised. (that comment is for visual purposes)

But Look At It This Way

Most men I know are happy with their p***s the way it is, uncut or not. They grew up with it which ever way their parents choose and I have yet met a male who wants it to be the other way, unless it's for their girlfriend or some stupid reason like that. If you are raised with your p***s a certain way, it's what you're used to. It doesn't make you anything less or more to have it one way or the other. You know nothing else about the other side. You have no idea what it's like to be uncut if you aren't yourself.  

Yukito Yu


I Need You More Than Ever

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:45 pm


Personally I dont think people should cut them at such a young age becuse it should be the choice of the child i am cut and im angry i didnt have the choice but i would have probably chosen to been cut why because i myself and most people like them cut! (Yes I'm a bisexual! Thank you for noticing!)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:18 am


Oni-Angel
I don't know...I prefer cut guys because they last longer and they can wear condoms.

I had a boyfriend who said that he physically could not wear a condom because of his foreskin. After trying to get the condom thing to work, I realised he was either right or able to make himself soft at the thought of wearing a condom. My cut boyfriend, however (he's only partially circumsized) can wear condoms fine.

I've also talked to other "uncut" people who have told me that they cannot physically wear condoms because the foreskin rubs against the p***s in a natural way that the condom inhibits....I'm not sure if this is completely true, but I thought it interesting to point out.



well my boyfriend is "uncut" and he has never complained... about wearing a condom

The reason it was done becuase of religious reasons...
now adays its done becuase it is easier to keep a ci8rcumcised p***s clean

Lilah-Clover


Kitten West

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:51 pm


Yukito Yu
And the crap about letting them decide - you make decision for your child all throughout life: He won't eat junk food. No television until he's 10, etc etc. Why not let them choose those things? Why? Because they don't have the mental capacity at that point to make a decision. Why not let your child decide about all the vacinations shots instead of you deciding for him to get it?


This is a little different to me. A p***s is a very personal thing, obviously, that circumcision (which cannot be undone) changes dramatically for life. And I know that I would like to have the decision of whether or not my v****a is modified for cleanliess or religion. I believe it should be the adult male's decision. When he will have the mental capacity.
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