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 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:06 pm
OMG its Luisito Well, based on Romans 1:16, none of us are ever going to be right, because like you said, it all depends on how you read it and interpret it. In response to your question about the Jews: I believe that Jews aren't damned for being Jews. I believe that Jews that don't believe and accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior are damned, just like any other regular person. Because you can be a Jew, and still believe in Jesus Christ. I never said that my translation was the "go-to" but since you were talking about the NIV like if it was the Pure word of God, I just had to say it. Either way, I believe that the word Christ was omitted from the NIV in Romans 1:16 because it wasn't needed since it's obvious that the gospel being spoken of was the gospel of Christ. This is what I assumed, just a veiled attempt at placation. We weren't arguing whether or not Jews are damned, we were arguing whether or not Jews that practice true Judaism are damned. Don't play semantics.
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:09 pm
Stxitxchxes You sort through the chaff quickly with brow-beating, your average fluff bunny gets too self-conscious then and usually questions themselves. It's really just become a reflex of mine. It's a nice strategy, but christians have Xtians, a totally different breed than fluff bunnies. Xtians are more likely to become self-rightiouss and indignant and attack you back. Quote: As for the triune G-d, you're going to have to convince me of that first. Because until the council of Nicaea, there was only one G-d or aspect of him. This is the reason Judaism regards Christianity as idolatrous, because for thousands of years prior, G-d was believed as indivisible, even in terms of aspects. This is of course not to be confused with aspects such as the Shekinah, which is an aspect of character, as opposed to an aspect of being. The Triune YHWH has roots back to Matthew 24:26, where Jesus proclaims that not even He knows when the Second Coming will be. The only real way to explain this would be a Triune God. As well, talk about the Holy Spirit (or Ghost) brings up questions of aspects of YHWH. NOt to say that YHWH is divided, only that He speaks out of different mouthpieces. conscious mouthpieces albeit. Quote: And you can quote all the NT verses you want to trying to convince me that I'm damned. Bottom line is that I don't regard the NT as truth, I'm not like a Pagan in this regard. If you're going to try and make a Jew see the light, you're going to have to argue Old Testament with him. Well, the entire reason you're damned is because you don't regard the NT as truth. If you want an evangelist, then talk to someone else. I'm afraid to say that it's not exactly my field of expertise.
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:13 pm
Stxitxchxes Contested. Only the NT lends credence to Jesus' claim as being part of the tribe and a descendant of David. Well duh. Jesus wasn't born until about 300 (or some such number) years after the last book of the Old Testament was written. Quote: And no, G-d's name is not a lot closer to Yahweh, there is no W sound in Hebrew, besides that, YHWH or YHVH isn't his name, until you write it in the Hebrew. It's just that when we say G-d, we're addressing Adonoy. Yeah, but YWHW is one bloody lot closer to God's name (which, even if I did know it, I would never say nor write down) than 'god' Quote: Really, the dash is just cultural tradition, don't read so much into it. Yeah, I know. THat was just a little bit of information that popped into my head when I was writing my post. Figured it would be nice to share it for those who don't get that whole - in place of an o when you write 'God'.
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:00 am
Cometh The Inquisitor Stxitxchxes As for the triune G-d, you're going to have to convince me of that first. Because until the council of Nicaea, there was only one G-d or aspect of him. This is the reason Judaism regards Christianity as idolatrous, because for thousands of years prior, G-d was believed as indivisible, even in terms of aspects. This is of course not to be confused with aspects such as the Shekinah, which is an aspect of character, as opposed to an aspect of being. The Triune YHWH has roots back to Matthew 24:26, where Jesus proclaims that not even He knows when the Second Coming will be. The only real way to explain this would be a Triune God. As well, talk about the Holy Spirit (or Ghost) brings up questions of aspects of YHWH. NOt to say that YHWH is divided, only that He speaks out of different mouthpieces. conscious mouthpieces albeit. Even the Holy Spirit is a division of G-d, by Christian definitions, there is no such precedent for it whatsoever in scriptural and even Talmudic theology. And that's saying something, the Talmud talks about all sorts of completely off-the-wall stuff. But, according to the Christian definition of the Triune G-d, it is idolatrous and unprecedented. Moreover, that is not the only way of explaining it. Recall that there have been Christians before you that didn't accept Jesus' divinity. The Arians are the first to come to mind, but I haven't done a lot of research on heretical Christian groups.
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:16 am
I believe that the Holy Spirit is talked about in the old testament. Right at the beginning too: Genesis 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” Genesis 41:38 And Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?” Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them. Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. I only posted the one from Matthew to show how it's all the same spirit being talked about. The Spirit of God.
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:18 am
Stxitxchxes OMG its Luisito Well, based on Romans 1:16, none of us are ever going to be right, because like you said, it all depends on how you read it and interpret it. In response to your question about the Jews: I believe that Jews aren't damned for being Jews. I believe that Jews that don't believe and accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior are damned, just like any other regular person. Because you can be a Jew, and still believe in Jesus Christ. I never said that my translation was the "go-to" but since you were talking about the NIV like if it was the Pure word of God, I just had to say it. Either way, I believe that the word Christ was omitted from the NIV in Romans 1:16 because it wasn't needed since it's obvious that the gospel being spoken of was the gospel of Christ. This is what I assumed, just a veiled attempt at placation. We weren't arguing whether or not Jews are damned, we were arguing whether or not Jews that practice true Judaism are damned. Don't play semantics. This is not what I meant to do. I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter. I believe Jews that practice true Judaism are damned because they reject Jesus as the messiah.
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:43 am
OMG its Luisito I believe that the Holy Spirit is talked about in the old testament. Right at the beginning too: Genesis 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” Genesis 41:38 And Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?” Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them. Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. I only posted the one from Matthew to show how it's all the same spirit being talked about. The Spirit of God. Your Christian bibles may say these things. While your quotes from Genesis are correct, they are highly debateable as to whether it is the presence of G-d being talked about, or the 'Holy Spirit'. However, in reading the quote from Psalms, you have a bad translation. I looked up the NIV and it agrees with what you say. However, when I dug out my own Tanakh and read the Hebrew, the Psalm says nothing about the Holy Spirit. Psalm 51:11 more closely translates to: 'Hide your face from my sins, and erase all my iniquities.' As for Isaiah, the verse does not say just Holy Spirit. It says His holy spirit, defining his spirit of presence as a characteristic of G-d, and not a separate entity.
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:22 pm
I know this is kinda off topic, but I've been reading this, and I have a question for Stxitxchxes...
I regret to say that I don't actually know a lot about Judaism (and if that's spelled wrong...I'm sorry...) but I would like to know something.
What does Judaism say about the Messiah? Clearly most don't beleive that Jesus was Him (save for the messianic ones) and I was just wondering what it teache...like, is there one coming? What's he going to be like? How will everyone know it's him? Will he be the Son of God, or another prophet or something?
Again, I apologize for my ignorance...these aren't meant to be mean, just genuine curiosity.
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:00 pm
x_Hikari_x I know this is kinda off topic, but I've been reading this, and I have a question for Stxitxchxes...
I regret to say that I don't actually know a lot about Judaism (and if that's spelled wrong...I'm sorry...) but I would like to know something.
What does Judaism say about the Messiah? Clearly most don't beleive that Jesus was Him (save for the messianic ones) and I was just wondering what it teache...like, is there one coming? What's he going to be like? How will everyone know it's him? Will he be the Son of God, or another prophet or something?
Again, I apologize for my ignorance...these aren't meant to be mean, just genuine curiosity. There's a -lot- said about him in Talmud and Mishnah and Midrash, etc. The basic rundown is that, while we don't have much insight into his character, we do know that he will be a simple man. Not divine, but nontheless 'sent by G-d'. The Messianic age is meant to be one of complete peace (hence that verse about lambs lying with wovles and whatnot), and the entire world will be united in a solitary faith in G-d. Mashiach is said not to come until the Jewish people do one of two things, the verse being that every Jew observes the Sabbath as it was meant to be observed, or that the Jewish people serve out their sentance and atone as a people. Some of the bigger messianic prophesies are that all Jews will be returned to Israel, the Temple will be rebuilt and the Kohanim restored. Really, check the link in my profile. It's a counter-missionary site, and they contain a great deal of discussion about Messianic prophesy and suchforth, even if it is a bit biased towards countering the J4J movement, which, I don't care if you're Christian or a Jew, but those people brow beat, manipulate, and often just plain lie if they think they might convert you.
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:27 pm
Hmm, okay, I get it. Thanks a lot...I just think it's all interesting. I have a bunch of questions, lol, but maybe I'll look at that site instead of pestering you.
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:41 am
x_Hikari_x Hmm, okay, I get it. Thanks a lot...I just think it's all interesting. I have a bunch of questions, lol, but maybe I'll look at that site instead of pestering you. I am also Jewish and would be more than happy to answer any of your questions.
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:56 am
Okay that was a useles argument. For one Jesus is as much the Messiah to Jews as Bar Cochba, Menachem Mendel Schneirson, and Muhammed are to Christians. All of these well-meaning Messiahs missed one very important thing on their check list of things to do, and that is the reuniting of the Jewish community to it's original state. Peace, mitzvot, Israel, Kohanim, and Temple. In fact the only one that came remotley close to even one of these is Menachem Mendel Scheirson. Muhammed as everyone knows is causing chaos, Jesus has done nothing for the world except spin it into a great debate over who he really was, and Bar Chochba is just a joke.
Why would G-d, Whom the Jewish people have loved,worshiped, and revered for thousands of years now, take back His covenant with us?
How would the Jewish people who have studied the Tenakh for generations before Jesus and have many writtings of years of wisdom on the Tanakh, not be in a position to say who is not the Messiah?
And since Christians believe that if G-d loves you He will persecute you, why is it that Jews are the most persecuted religion, most persecuted minority, and most persecuted country, on earth right now?
Do you honestly think that G-d doesn't hear our cries every Yom Kippur when we confess our short-comings, fast, and pray?
Do you honestly believe that the G-d who has preserved Eretz Yisrael for milleniums would just turn a blind eye to the people He created and create a new promise?
And are you ready to say that millions of Jews, killed in the Holocaust, went to hell and those still living after their horrible ordeal, are going to suffer further, and nonetheless by G-d Himself's hand, for still believing in Him?
Where is the justice in that?
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:45 am
Stxitxchxes Cometh The Inquisitor Stxitxchxes But Jesus didn't fulfill the entirety of the messianic prophesies, buck-o. Last time I checked not all the Jews are in Israel, and there's no Temple, not to mention that whole thing about the lack of peace on earth, etc. Edit: For reference, however, I don't believe that Jesus wasn't -A- messiah, just not -THE- messiah. Much like King David and Co. are referred to as messiahs. I'm a big fan of the triplicate covenent college of theologians. Eh, He's got 324 of them, and a second coming to do more. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the duubt on this one. I do hope he plans on changing his genealogy when he returns. It throws a major wrench in things, considering he's neither part of the tribe of Judah, or a male descendant of David. Edit: Also, I can already tell that the integrity of the site you just linked to is nil. The Pentateuch contains no Messianic prophesies, every one of those is taken completely out of context. Not to mention the word in Gen 3:15 isn't virgin. It's just young woman, in the Hebrew. After catching that even in a passing glance, I can't be arsed to bother with yet another thinly veiled regurgitation by Mark Rosen (Moshe Rosenberg). Whoa there boy! if you look in the new testament you'll find that mary was a descendant of David and about the temple and such it say that those are signs of the rapture and 2nd coming and such. why dont you go pick up a new testament bible and read the whole thing before you say something isnt true or isnt going to happen.
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:43 pm
mysticphoenix Stxitxchxes Cometh The Inquisitor Stxitxchxes But Jesus didn't fulfill the entirety of the messianic prophesies, buck-o. Last time I checked not all the Jews are in Israel, and there's no Temple, not to mention that whole thing about the lack of peace on earth, etc. Edit: For reference, however, I don't believe that Jesus wasn't -A- messiah, just not -THE- messiah. Much like King David and Co. are referred to as messiahs. I'm a big fan of the triplicate covenent college of theologians. Eh, He's got 324 of them, and a second coming to do more. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the duubt on this one. I do hope he plans on changing his genealogy when he returns. It throws a major wrench in things, considering he's neither part of the tribe of Judah, or a male descendant of David. Edit: Also, I can already tell that the integrity of the site you just linked to is nil. The Pentateuch contains no Messianic prophesies, every one of those is taken completely out of context. Not to mention the word in Gen 3:15 isn't virgin. It's just young woman, in the Hebrew. After catching that even in a passing glance, I can't be arsed to bother with yet another thinly veiled regurgitation by Mark Rosen (Moshe Rosenberg). Whoa there boy! if you look in the new testament you'll find that mary was a descendant of David and about the temple and such it say that those are signs of the rapture and 2nd coming and such. why dont you go pick up a new testament bible and read the whole thing before you say something isnt true or isnt going to happen. Yeah.. I read the hole 2nd testament,the 1st one I didnt believe to much..
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:21 am
mysticphoenix Stxitxchxes Cometh The Inquisitor Stxitxchxes But Jesus didn't fulfill the entirety of the messianic prophesies, buck-o. Last time I checked not all the Jews are in Israel, and there's no Temple, not to mention that whole thing about the lack of peace on earth, etc. Edit: For reference, however, I don't believe that Jesus wasn't -A- messiah, just not -THE- messiah. Much like King David and Co. are referred to as messiahs. I'm a big fan of the triplicate covenent college of theologians. Eh, He's got 324 of them, and a second coming to do more. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the duubt on this one. I do hope he plans on changing his genealogy when he returns. It throws a major wrench in things, considering he's neither part of the tribe of Judah, or a male descendant of David. Edit: Also, I can already tell that the integrity of the site you just linked to is nil. The Pentateuch contains no Messianic prophesies, every one of those is taken completely out of context. Not to mention the word in Gen 3:15 isn't virgin. It's just young woman, in the Hebrew. After catching that even in a passing glance, I can't be arsed to bother with yet another thinly veiled regurgitation by Mark Rosen (Moshe Rosenberg). Whoa there boy! if you look in the new testament you'll find that mary was a descendant of David and about the temple and such it say that those are signs of the rapture and 2nd coming and such. why dont you go pick up a new testament bible and read the whole thing before you say something isnt true or isnt going to happen. I already addressed this, tackling the genealogy bit. Firstly, the prophecy states that he must be a male descendant, meaning it doesn't matter who Mary was descended from. And, aside from the fact that Joseph's genealogy is inconsistent, you're going to have to admit that Joseph was his father if you want to claim tribal affiliation and descendency. Oh, and believe me, I've read the New Testament. Unlike a great deal of Theologians I actually tend to bother myself to read all available source material.
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