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 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:24 pm
Well the mother's life is a definite must. I mean if she's worried about getting stretch-marks that's her problem, but if she's going to die I don't think it's my call to say that her life is worth less than the baby's.
Rape is more difficult. If they made abortion illegal except in cases of the mother's or mother's/child's health or in cases of rape, I wouldn't fight that I'd be fine with it. If we made it illegal even in cases of rape I wouldn't fight that either.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:28 pm
Theallpowerfull toxic_lollipop lymelady Theallpowerfull I don't think I can break it down to good or bad. Everything is relative and the situation plays the largest role of all. Seeing as how I have no situation to judge withy I don't think I'll judge at all. 3nodding On a daily basis I don't think the morning after pill should be necessary if that's enough for you. razz Hate to get into shades of gray. Abortion is one of those all or nothing issues, isn't it? If you start getting into abortion situations, any situation can be twisted into a situational need for something. The probelm is still that we are simply debating it and not living it. I personally have no recommendation as to what would be best for everyone because there may be valid reasons but there are also lazy, stupid people who would take advantage of those opportunities. I think abortion should only be legel if the mother or both her and the child would certainly die anyway. At least then the mother can fight with her own morals and decide who's life is more important... sweatdrop Yep. but a lot of prolifers think rape is plausible grounds for abortion...so I'm told. never met anyone who said that, but I don't know the entire world. This stuff made me think. What if there was a sticky or something give debate tips? There's a lot of debating going on and yeah, the point is to attract people who can debate, but there are people who feel strongly on the abortion and don't know where to begin when they want to make a point. Erm...maybe I"m just crazy and I'm the only one I know who feels extremely inadequate when trying to debate something.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:31 pm
It don't think abortion in cases of rape is right per se. I think it's justified though, it's not the baby's fault, no. But it's not the mother's either. It's a tough call, that one, it's one of those one's where you have to pick a side and no matter which side you pick it's the wrong one.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:37 pm
toxic_lollipop Well the mother's life is a definite must. I mean if she's worried about getting stretch-marks that's her problem, but if she's going to die I don't think it's my call to say that her life is worth less than the baby's.
Rape is more difficult. If they made abortion illegal except in cases of the mother's or mother's/child's health or in cases of rape, I wouldn't fight that I'd be fine with it. If we made it illegal even in cases of rape I wouldn't fight that either. I stand corrected. I really am torn on the rape thing. You don't know what the other half of that dna is in many rape cases...so there's the concern of what genetic problems might pop up, should the mother be made to carry a child she was forced with for 9 months...I know my thoughts, but I've never been through it. Also, what defines rape? That's as sketchy as what defines a human being. For some people, being pressured by a boyfriend or husband is enough to constitute as rape. Legally. Some people have managed to get men arrested for pressuring their partner. I don't just mean statutory rape, and that's another issue. what happens with that? It's rape. But if the girl chose to have sex with the guy, well, it was her choice.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:56 pm
Rape as in the woman is forced to have sex. Not statuatory, not pressured. I can't be pressured to do a lot of things, like smoking for instance but the moment I take a smoke of my own free will, no matter how pressured I was, it's my own damn fault.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:06 pm
toxic_lollipop Rape as in the woman is forced to have sex. Not statuatory, not pressured. I can't be pressured to do a lot of things, like smoking for instance but the moment I take a smoke of my own free will, no matter how pressured I was, it's my own damn fault. I agree. But many people don't. http://www.salsa.net/peace/conv/8weekconv5-2.html that was in my religion book. My friend and I had fun making fun of it. my teacher took it to the next level. "Success has been made" because a guy at one of the schools she worked for was expelled for "raping" a girl....he begged and wheedled and threatened to leave if she didn't. She finally said yes. I'm sorry, but if you feel like you need to have sex to stay with a guy, why are you with him? Gah. I thought at first it was statuatory, but the girl was a month older than the guy. I don't blame guys for thinking when a girl says no it means yes and vice versa.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:15 pm
lymelady toxic_lollipop Rape as in the woman is forced to have sex. Not statuatory, not pressured. I can't be pressured to do a lot of things, like smoking for instance but the moment I take a smoke of my own free will, no matter how pressured I was, it's my own damn fault. I agree. But many people don't. http://www.salsa.net/peace/conv/8weekconv5-2.html that was in my religion book. My friend and I had fun making fun of it. my teacher took it to the next level. "Success has been made" because a guy at one of the schools she worked for was expelled for "raping" a girl....he begged and wheedled and threatened to leave if she didn't. She finally said yes. I'm sorry, but if you feel like you need to have sex to stay with a guy, why are you with him? Gah. I thought at first it was statuatory, but the girl was a month older than the guy. I don't blame guys for thinking when a girl says no it means yes and vice versa. What people don't realise is that because guys are conditioned to brag about sex they don't mention when they are put into the same situation. I've dated girl's who have been through some of the same thing's as me and they called it rape. I was confused. I still don't consider my history to have involved rape simply because I could honestly have stopped if I really didn't want to. However there are women I know that I would call it rape because of their feelings afterwards and not because the guys played off their feelings to get it. sweatdrop I need to go to bed... Otherwise I'd elaborate so that I'd actually make sense.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:21 pm
Theallpowerfull lymelady toxic_lollipop Rape as in the woman is forced to have sex. Not statuatory, not pressured. I can't be pressured to do a lot of things, like smoking for instance but the moment I take a smoke of my own free will, no matter how pressured I was, it's my own damn fault. I agree. But many people don't. http://www.salsa.net/peace/conv/8weekconv5-2.html that was in my religion book. My friend and I had fun making fun of it. my teacher took it to the next level. "Success has been made" because a guy at one of the schools she worked for was expelled for "raping" a girl....he begged and wheedled and threatened to leave if she didn't. She finally said yes. I'm sorry, but if you feel like you need to have sex to stay with a guy, why are you with him? Gah. I thought at first it was statuatory, but the girl was a month older than the guy. I don't blame guys for thinking when a girl says no it means yes and vice versa. What people don't realise is that because guys are conditioned to brag about sex they don't mention when they are put into the same situation. I've dated girl's who have been through some of the same thing's as me and they called it rape. I was confused. I still don't consider my history to have involved rape simply because I could honestly have stopped if I really didn't want to. However there are women I know that I would call it rape because of their feelings afterwards and not because the guys played off their feelings to get it. sweatdrop I need to go to bed... Otherwise I'd elaborate so that I'd actually make sense. I know you're in bed, but what do you mean because of their feelings afterwards? like, it's the same situation but afterwards they feel bad? I dunno. I feel that if you say yes, it's not rape. If a guy threatens you with something solid...I'll kill you, I'll beat the crap outta you, I'll hurt your loved ones, etc, that I consider rape. I dunno. Girls who cry rape annoy me when they give their consent. There's such a difference. there's a difference in feeling you get while it happens, too, though afterwards it might be the same.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:25 pm
lymelady I know you're in bed, but what do you mean because of their feelings afterwards? like, it's the same situation but afterwards they feel bad? I dunno. I feel that if you say yes, it's not rape. If a guy threatens you with something solid...I'll kill you, I'll beat the crap outta you, I'll hurt your loved ones, etc, that I consider rape. I dunno. Girls who cry rape annoy me when they give their consent. There's such a difference. there's a difference in feeling you get while it happens, too, though afterwards it might be the same.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:31 pm
You're right. SO I stand by my thoughts. If you give consent, It isn't rape. I'm sick of people saying it is because "I didn't want to." Then why'd you say yes????? bleck.
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:33 pm
lymelady You're right. SO I stand by my thoughts. If you give consent, It isn't rape. I'm sick of people saying it is because "I didn't want to." Then why'd you say yes????? bleck.
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:07 am
Hi all! Just kinda checking in here. This isn't my main guild but the topic is very interesting and important.
A few things I'd like to say that don't seem to have been said or at least put this way:
Safe sex: The only truly "safe sex" is abstinence. Condoms prevent some diseases, some of the time. For instance, some strains of HPV's can be deadly. They have been proven to be the cause of cervical cancer. Condoms are only partially effective at preventing the spread of HPV's. It's like playing Russian Roulette with your life. Although people will be promiscuous without the availability of condoms, condoms can be like a security blanket. Their use can tip the scales and actually make someone feel like casual sex is safe, thereby increasing the activity. I'm not saying it would stop everyone, but with proper education a wise person would be more likely to abstain.
Morning after pill: To prevent a fertilized egg from attaching is kinda like having someone hanging off the edge of a tall building by their fingers and you stomp on their fingers and they fall.
A human being (that's what a fertilized egg is: "human"), is a human being no matter what age. It is not any "better" to abort earlier than later. Just as it is not any better to kill a baby just before he/she is born, rather than just after he/she is born. Murder is the deliberate taking of another human beings life. Forced abortion (as differentiated from spontaneous abortion), does that. It deliberately erases a human life.
In the case of rape: Rape is traumatic. There is no argument about that. But to top that off by burdening the woman, even a young woman with a lifetime of guilt from having killed an innocent human being only compounds the trauma. Giving birth due to a rape is something I would wish upon no one, but the alternative is actually worse. In addition to the psychological trauma, there are also medical issues associated with abortions that are undesireable. Pregnancy carries medical risks but so does abortion (this is hardly ever mentioned). In our pro-choice society, negative health aspects of abortions are played down if mentioned at all.
The mother or the baby scenario: It is extremely rare that maintaining the life of an unborn baby would be the determining factor on whether a woman would live or die. Having said that, in these extremely rare instances, your goal would be to save the mother "first", not kill the child. If the mother were to die, and the fetus was at a stage where it was still completely dependent on the mother, well, the baby dies too. So common sense would have to be to save the mother, to benefit both. If the baby is lost while trying to do this, there is no murder.
Gee.... I didn't intend for that to be so long. Thanks for bearing with me. heart
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:24 am
Lol much shorter than some of my posts redface I'd never really thought about it...with rape I mean, how it'd make it worse to have an abortion. Except that some people are perfectly fine with abortion because it's removing "tissue" and never feel guilty about it....ever. But I think if people realized the psychological impact of abortion there'd be less abortions. People who suffer the loss of a child through abortion psychologically usually feel worse than a woman who has had a miscarriage(please excuse my spelling) because there's the guilt of, "I did it. I chose it. I didn't even try." It's not like, "I did all I could, but it wasn't enough." I dunno. I just feel it's gotta be worse.
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:55 pm
The thing is, there has to be some trauma in abortion no matter what. I haven't done any studying up on this yet, but I believe that when you are pregnant, you are producing extra hormones for the child, no? So if you kill the child, then you have an overflow of hormones which can create duress, mood swings, etc. as well as the psychological stuff about, "I killed my baby."
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:59 pm
I.Am The thing is, there has to be some trauma in abortion no matter what. I haven't done any studying up on this yet, but I believe that when you are pregnant, you are producing extra hormones for the child, no? So if you kill the child, then you have an overflow of hormones which can create duress, mood swings, etc. as well as the psychological stuff about, "I killed my baby." But it depends on how you direct it...they don't feel the guilt. They feel moody. Lol, never piss off a pregnant woman....but you don't feel it from the abortion. you don't direct it at the abortion, you don't think it comes from that. You direct it as being pissed at the guy who raped you...which you really should be. So if you don't think of it as a baby, you get the mood swings, but you might never feel guilt.
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