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 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:15 pm
Fenris Von Uberwald Sovereign of Darkness I definately think that Naruto gets passed off as an uke a lot because a lot of characters with troubled, sad pasts tend to appear uke. However, he's uke in a diferent way as well. Innocence and inexperience plays a lot into uke factors, and who would be more inexperienced with love than Naruto, a person who grew up with no parents (therefore no "love examples"), was alone his entire life, and can't even realize that Hinata has the hots for him. I'd say that in a sexual situation he just wouldn't know what to do. That makes him uke. Yep, thats why I say he is a good uke. He would probably panic if someone kissed him (intentionally, that first time WAS an accident...and even then he looked pretty shocked) Hm... I don't think so. Lack of experience doesn't make someone an uke, especially if their partner doesn't have any experience either. Besides, in heterosexual relationships, every guy has to have a 'first time.' He's never done it before and is therefore inexperienced, but he's still usually going to end up in the 'seme' role. So you don't have to know exactly what you're doing to be a seme.
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:28 pm
Chieira Fenris Von Uberwald Sovereign of Darkness I definately think that Naruto gets passed off as an uke a lot because a lot of characters with troubled, sad pasts tend to appear uke. However, he's uke in a diferent way as well. Innocence and inexperience plays a lot into uke factors, and who would be more inexperienced with love than Naruto, a person who grew up with no parents (therefore no "love examples"), was alone his entire life, and can't even realize that Hinata has the hots for him. I'd say that in a sexual situation he just wouldn't know what to do. That makes him uke. Yep, thats why I say he is a good uke. He would probably panic if someone kissed him (intentionally, that first time WAS an accident...and even then he looked pretty shocked) Hm... I don't think so. Lack of experience doesn't make someone an uke, especially if their partner doesn't have any experience either. Besides, in heterosexual relationships, every guy has to have a 'first time.' He's never done it before and is therefore inexperienced, but he's still usually going to end up in the 'seme' role. So you don't have to know exactly what you're doing to be a seme. I agree! FIrst time seme's may be clumsy and a little rough around the edges, so sex may not be the best, but all they REALLY gotta do is stick it XD Learning foreplay can always come later lol
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:51 pm
Fenris Von Uberwald Naruto. Definately Naruto. I mean, look at him!  Can you seriously tell me that that is not the face of an uke?! Yes it is. Yum Uke
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:58 pm
Alright, First timers don't really count. But look who everyone thinks is uke and their past and personality.
Haku: Tragic, lonely past. Innocence, but obligation. Master/servant situation with Zabuza. Haku himself is sensitive, devoted, and caring.
Iruka: Tragic, lonely past. Puts up a strong front, lost his parents thanks to Kyuubi. Iruka himself is sensitive, devoted, and caring.
Kimmimaro: Tragic, lonely past. Battles with terminal illness and idolizes Orochimaru. Kimmimaro himself is graceful, devoted, and quiet.
Now, for Naruto: Tragic, lonely past. Though a hero, is hated by those who don't understand his sacrifice. Naruto himself is sensitive (Tsunade even says so...I trust her Judgement), caring, and has an unwavering sense of good.
What do we see in all of these cases? The tragic past which has a lasting effect on their current situation, and "submisive" personality traits. Well...not as much with Kimmimaro, but you get my point.
In my opinion, personality traits which leads to non-violence, empathy, and gentle behavior makes that person a better uke. Of course, these traits would have to be weighed when that person is not in battle, or else no body is a good uke...
I stand by my opinion. Naruto is the best uke.
EDIT: When I said love, I didn't mean sex per-say. Everyone who's ever had parents have had at least one role model of what love is supposed to be like. So at least, even though they don't know what sex is like, they know what love is like and even though it would be their first time, they'd at least know it had something to do with love. Naruto has no such prior exposure to love of any kind and would be even more alienated than the average Joe. He'd have had no "Talk," no nothing to go on. It'd be confusing and he wouldn't understand the responsibilites sex intails. Naruto wouldn't be a good seme because 1.) he's not dominant and 2.) He knows nothing about anything pertaining to that subject. Even if it is his first time, you can't just go in swinging, not knowing what's supposed to happen and expect to be seme.
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:54 pm
Sovereign of Darkness EDIT: When I said love, I didn't mean sex per-say. Everyone who's ever had parents have had at least one role model of what love is supposed to be like. So at least, even though they don't know what sex is like, they know what love is like and even though it would be their first time, they'd at least know it had something to do with love. Naruto has no such prior exposure to love of any kind and would be even more alienated than the average Joe. He'd have had no "Talk," no nothing to go on. It'd be confusing and he wouldn't understand the responsibilites sex intails. Naruto wouldn't be a good seme because 1.) he's not dominant and 2.) He knows nothing about anything pertaining to that subject. Even if it is his first time, you can't just go in swinging, not knowing what's supposed to happen and expect to be seme. So are you trying to say Sasuke can't be seme either? You make it sound like two virgins can't sleep together since one has to be seme, and virgins can't be seme. You HAVE to go in swinging, probably in a moment of unexpected passions. As I said, it might be rough and unpolished, but Naruto WOULD know enough to know what he wants. Sasuke (for canon SasuNaru sake) might just laugh it off and take a calmer, cooler lead, but Naruto could still try. Or Sasuke could be a dominant uke. Who knows?
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:56 pm
x_LoveObject_x Sovereign of Darkness EDIT: When I said love, I didn't mean sex per-say. Everyone who's ever had parents have had at least one role model of what love is supposed to be like. So at least, even though they don't know what sex is like, they know what love is like and even though it would be their first time, they'd at least know it had something to do with love. Naruto has no such prior exposure to love of any kind and would be even more alienated than the average Joe. He'd have had no "Talk," no nothing to go on. It'd be confusing and he wouldn't understand the responsibilites sex intails. Naruto wouldn't be a good seme because 1.) he's not dominant and 2.) He knows nothing about anything pertaining to that subject. Even if it is his first time, you can't just go in swinging, not knowing what's supposed to happen and expect to be seme. So are you trying to say Sasuke can't be seme either? You make it sound like two virgins can't sleep together since one has to be seme, and virgins can't be seme. You HAVE to go in swinging, probably in a moment of unexpected passions. As I said, it might be rough and unpolished, but Naruto WOULD know enough to know what he wants. Sasuke (for canon SasuNaru sake) might just laugh it off and take a calmer, cooler lead, but Naruto could still try. Or Sasuke could be a dominant uke. Who knows? Note the bit about the "Talk." We've all had it. We know a LITTLE bit more about sex than a person who has heard nothing about it and who has had it never explained to them. Sure, someone can be seme, but it probably isn't Naruto. See what I'm saying? Sure, he might know what he wants, but the brain doesn't give explicit insert rod A into slot B instructions. You have feelings. Pleasure, want, love. If you didn't know how to interpret those feelings, (as opposed to, say, someone who's had the "talk") you'd just be a confused little puppy with a hard on, frustrated because you're not sure how to outlet your feelings. Naruto is uke because he knows less even if his peers are all virgins like he is.
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:17 pm
Sovereign of Darkness x_LoveObject_x Sovereign of Darkness EDIT: When I said love, I didn't mean sex per-say. Everyone who's ever had parents have had at least one role model of what love is supposed to be like. So at least, even though they don't know what sex is like, they know what love is like and even though it would be their first time, they'd at least know it had something to do with love. Naruto has no such prior exposure to love of any kind and would be even more alienated than the average Joe. He'd have had no "Talk," no nothing to go on. It'd be confusing and he wouldn't understand the responsibilites sex intails. Naruto wouldn't be a good seme because 1.) he's not dominant and 2.) He knows nothing about anything pertaining to that subject. Even if it is his first time, you can't just go in swinging, not knowing what's supposed to happen and expect to be seme. So are you trying to say Sasuke can't be seme either? You make it sound like two virgins can't sleep together since one has to be seme, and virgins can't be seme. You HAVE to go in swinging, probably in a moment of unexpected passions. As I said, it might be rough and unpolished, but Naruto WOULD know enough to know what he wants. Sasuke (for canon SasuNaru sake) might just laugh it off and take a calmer, cooler lead, but Naruto could still try. Or Sasuke could be a dominant uke. Who knows? Note the bit about the "Talk." We've all had it. We know a LITTLE bit more about sex than a person who has heard nothing about it and who has had it never explained to them. Sure, someone can be seme, but it probably isn't Naruto. See what I'm saying? Sure, he might know what he wants, but the brain doesn't give explicit insert rod A into slot B instructions. You have feelings. Pleasure, want, love. If you didn't know how to interpret those feelings, (as opposed to, say, someone who's had the "talk") you'd just be a confused little puppy with a hard on, frustrated because you're not sure how to outlet your feelings. Naruto is uke because he knows less even if his peers are all virgins like he is. That's completely senseless. How is he just BORN uke? What makes you think Sasuke has had the 'talk'? He was freaking seven or so when his family was killed, I highly doubt he knew anything. He's a genious, but that doesn't mean with sex. Besides, so and ask a 12 year old what sex is now a days. I'm sure dirty little ninja boys have their talks. He's already interested in girls after all. You obviously see Naruto as some kind of stupid idiot, but he's not.
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:31 pm
x_LoveObject_x Sovereign of Darkness x_LoveObject_x Sovereign of Darkness EDIT: When I said love, I didn't mean sex per-say. Everyone who's ever had parents have had at least one role model of what love is supposed to be like. So at least, even though they don't know what sex is like, they know what love is like and even though it would be their first time, they'd at least know it had something to do with love. Naruto has no such prior exposure to love of any kind and would be even more alienated than the average Joe. He'd have had no "Talk," no nothing to go on. It'd be confusing and he wouldn't understand the responsibilites sex intails. Naruto wouldn't be a good seme because 1.) he's not dominant and 2.) He knows nothing about anything pertaining to that subject. Even if it is his first time, you can't just go in swinging, not knowing what's supposed to happen and expect to be seme. So are you trying to say Sasuke can't be seme either? You make it sound like two virgins can't sleep together since one has to be seme, and virgins can't be seme. You HAVE to go in swinging, probably in a moment of unexpected passions. As I said, it might be rough and unpolished, but Naruto WOULD know enough to know what he wants. Sasuke (for canon SasuNaru sake) might just laugh it off and take a calmer, cooler lead, but Naruto could still try. Or Sasuke could be a dominant uke. Who knows? Note the bit about the "Talk." We've all had it. We know a LITTLE bit more about sex than a person who has heard nothing about it and who has had it never explained to them. Sure, someone can be seme, but it probably isn't Naruto. See what I'm saying? Sure, he might know what he wants, but the brain doesn't give explicit insert rod A into slot B instructions. You have feelings. Pleasure, want, love. If you didn't know how to interpret those feelings, (as opposed to, say, someone who's had the "talk") you'd just be a confused little puppy with a hard on, frustrated because you're not sure how to outlet your feelings. Naruto is uke because he knows less even if his peers are all virgins like he is. That's completely senseless. How is he just BORN uke? What makes you think Sasuke has had the 'talk'? He was freaking seven or so when his family was killed, I highly doubt he knew anything. He's a genious, but that doesn't mean with sex. Besides, so and ask a 12 year old what sex is now a days. I'm sure dirty little ninja boys have their talks. He's already interested in girls after all. You obviously see Naruto as some kind of stupid idiot, but he's not. I never said he was born uke. You're kinda losing sight of the original idea. I never mentioned sasuke in my post. I don't see Naruto as an idiot, I'm just saying that he's an uke because he hasn't been exposed to courting behavior as much as someone who has parents and because of the way he acts. I'm not really going to argue this much further since this is an opinion thread, but if you wish to continue, please don't confuse your facts and make assumptions.
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:57 pm
Hm... okay, let's see if I can summarize my opinions on all the points made while I was gone.
First of all... as for comparing all the pasts of the "uke" characters... I don't think having a "tragic and lonely past" makes an uke. Honestly, I prefer an equal relationship between Sasuke and Naruto, with no predetermined "seme" or "uke", but I'm arguing against Naruto being the typical "uke", so I'll continue with this. As I said, I don't think the past necessarily makes an uke. I think a lot of it is the character's personality, and Naruto just simply does not have that personality. As I pointed out in my first post, Naruto is basically the picture of your typical teenage male.
Now for the latest argument... even without having the sex talk, I'm going to assume that it's not necessary for someone to know how to have sex, or to maintain a "seme" position. After all, if it was, mankind probably would have died out by now ^^; I'm pretty sure that explaining the actual mechanics of sex to your kids is a pretty recent thing in human history; I doubt it's always been done throughout the years. I can only assume that humans are like all other animals, and that nature equipped us with a natural knowledge of the mechanics of sex, when it comes right down to it.
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:31 am
Chieira Hm... okay, let's see if I can summarize my opinions on all the points made while I was gone. First of all... as for comparing all the pasts of the "uke" characters... I don't think having a "tragic and lonely past" makes an uke. Honestly, I prefer an equal relationship between Sasuke and Naruto, with no predetermined "seme" or "uke", but I'm arguing against Naruto being the typical "uke", so I'll continue with this. As I said, I don't think the past necessarily makes an uke. I think a lot of it is the character's personality, and Naruto just simply does not have that personality. I'd argue that Naruto's past does have quite a bit to do with his personality. Out of curiosity, what would you define as necissary for uke personality? Quote: As I pointed out in my first post, Naruto is basically the picture of your typical teenage male. But that doesn't really have anything to do with uke-ness, does it? If you took two typical teenage males, their more subtle differences would make them the dominant or submissive in a relationship, right? Quote: Now for the latest argument... even without having the sex talk, I'm going to assume that it's not necessary for someone to know how to have sex, or to maintain a "seme" position. After all, if it was, mankind probably would have died out by now ^^; I'm pretty sure that explaining the actual mechanics of sex to your kids is a pretty recent thing in human history; I doubt it's always been done throughout the years. I can only assume that humans are like all other animals, and that nature equipped us with a natural knowledge of the mechanics of sex, when it comes right down to it. That goes without saying. But I'd also argue that some mechanics of sex are nurture oriented. Animals behavioraly learn from example. It doesn't even have to be sex, but human courting behavior, since now a days it's not very...instinct based. Body odors are seen as disgusting, and courting is strongly influenced on the spoken language. I've never seen a wolf be turned off because it's partner yipped wrongly. My point: It would be a bit more confusing for someone who hasn't had any parental guidance, the first example of courting behavior. In my mind, this confusion, and considering Naruto's personality, would make him an uke.
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:45 am
Kisame! Yup! Kisa-chan! Totally!
Hey! I am pro-Kisame/Itachi and Kisame/Orochimaru and Kisame/Kaka-sensei and if you have a problem with it.... evil That's your opinion...
I also like:
Oro-Ita
Ita-Sasu
Kisa-Kaka
and others!
Note, if ye are willing to RP..lemmeknow! Any who! Yeah!
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:09 am
Sovereign of Darkness I'd argue that Naruto's past does have quite a bit to do with his personality. Out of curiosity, what would you define as necissary for uke personality? As I've said, I don't particularly like defining Naruto as either seme or uke; I much prefer the equal relationship dynamic. I'm arguing against him being your 'typical' uke. So what do I think makes an uke? In anime (and usually in real life, as I've recently learned from some of my gay friends), it tends to be the more 'feminine' boys. I don't see Naruto as feminine, so I don't see him as an uke. The 'uke' Naruto that I'm arguing against is the one that is often portrayed in fanfiction and in doujinshi: the 'girly boy' Naruto. I absolutely can not stand when Naruto is feminized ^^; It's just not him. I can see him taking the 'bottom' role during sex occasionally, because as I said, I like the equal relationship dynamic. But I don't see him being the anime 'uke', because that has come to be nearly the very definition of a girly boy. I also don't see him as ALWAYS being on bottom, as calling him an 'uke' might imply. Naruto is very competitive; he'd want to top sometimes, if only to prove that he could do it. Sovereign of Darkness But that doesn't really have anything to do with uke-ness, does it? If you took two typical teenage males, their more subtle differences would make them the dominant or submissive in a relationship, right? Actually, that has a lot to do with uke-ness, because your typical teenage boy is not an uke ^^; Not in the way an uke is usually thought of in anime, anyway. I'm trying to think of a yaoi/BL anime in which the uke character WASN'T overly feminized... and the only one I can come up with is Ryo from FAKE. But even then, Ryo is portrayed as the more motherly of the two, and also the one more prone to "feminine" emotions and reactons. He just doesn't happen to LOOK girly. I haven't seen every yaoi anime out there, so I can only assume that SOMEWHERE there is one where both characters are at least close to equal in masculine traits, neither character having been made feminine, but you would have to agree that those types are more rare, ne? Sovereign of Darkness That goes without saying. But I'd also argue that some mechanics of sex are nurture oriented. Animals behavioraly learn from example. It doesn't even have to be sex, but human courting behavior, since now a days it's not very...instinct based. Body odors are seen as disgusting, and courting is strongly influenced on the spoken language. I've never seen a wolf be turned off because it's partner yipped wrongly. My point: It would be a bit more confusing for someone who hasn't had any parental guidance, the first example of courting behavior. In my mind, this confusion, and considering Naruto's personality, would make him an uke. As was said before, yes, some parts of sex have to be learned, but those aren't the most important parts. ^^; That's usually things like foreplay, as LoveObject mentioned. Other than that, it's basic instinct to know where to stick it. As for human courting behavoir... well, all you have to do to learn that is go to school (which Naruto did). You don't even have to have many friends, you see it going on; it's the center of everyone's existence while at that age, and you'd have to be blind not to notice it. With the way girls showered affection on Sasuke, I'm sure Naruto's seen and overheard enough to know the basics of dating, if that's what you're talking about. Basically, you just seem to be reiterating what you already said, and my opinion on that remains the same. Confusion and/or lack of knowledge when it comes to sex or dating does not make one an uke. As I said before, many teenage boys don't have experience, but they're still going to be seme over whatever girl they choose to be with. Obviously, you don't have to know EXACTLY what you're doing to be seme. Everyone's hesitant at first, that's the nature of learning to be in a relationship.
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:53 am
Chieira As I've said, I don't particularly like defining Naruto as either seme or uke; I much prefer the equal relationship dynamic. I'm arguing against him being your 'typical' uke. So what do I think makes an uke? In anime (and usually in real life, as I've recently learned from some of my gay friends), it tends to be the more 'feminine' boys. I don't see Naruto as feminine, so I don't see him as an uke. The 'uke' Naruto that I'm arguing against is the one that is often portrayed in fanfiction and in doujinshi: the 'girly boy' Naruto. I absolutely can not stand when Naruto is feminized ^^; It's just not him. I can see him taking the 'bottom' role during sex occasionally, because as I said, I like the equal relationship dynamic. But I don't see him being the anime 'uke', because that has come to be nearly the very definition of a girly boy. I also don't see him as ALWAYS being on bottom, as calling him an 'uke' might imply. Naruto is very competitive; he'd want to top sometimes, if only to prove that he could do it. That is a very logical way to put it I suppose. I can't really stand it when he's feminized either, but I just don't really see him taking the lead often in those sorts of situations. *sigh* maybe it's just me, eh? I just can't see him in a seme situation, because he doesn't seem like that kind of person, but he doesn't seem a bit more uke to me. The equal relationship idea is actually more appealing, but if it has to be a seme/uke role, he seems like an uke to me. Quote: Actually, that has a lot to do with uke-ness, because your typical teenage boy is not an uke ^^; Not in the way an uke is usually thought of in anime, anyway. I'm trying to think of a yaoi/BL anime in which the uke character WASN'T overly feminized... and the only one I can come up with is Ryo from FAKE. But even then, Ryo is portrayed as the more motherly of the two, and also the one more prone to "feminine" emotions and reactons. He just doesn't happen to LOOK girly. I haven't seen every yaoi anime out there, so I can only assume that SOMEWHERE there is one where both characters are at least close to equal in masculine traits, neither character having been made feminine, but you would have to agree that those types are more rare, ne? Rare indeed. But couldn't the typical male be more inclined towards uke than others? I'm just not buying into the idea that you have to be more feminine to be the uke, that just happens to be the case with a lot of yaoi... ninja Quote: As was said before, yes, some parts of sex have to be learned, but those aren't the most important parts. ^^; That's usually things like foreplay, as LoveObject mentioned. Other than that, it's basic instinct to know where to stick it. As for human courting behavoir... well, all you have to do to learn that is go to school (which Naruto did). You don't even have to have many friends, you see it going on; it's the center of everyone's existence while at that age, and you'd have to be blind not to notice it. With the way girls showered affection on Sasuke, I'm sure Naruto's seen and overheard enough to know the basics of dating, if that's what you're talking about. He's Naruto. I know that sounds...biased, but if he did have that sort of perception, wouldn't you think he'd catch on to Hinata's little crush? Not to say that he doesn't get it, because he obviously tries (and fails, as in Sakura's case), but he doesn't seem to get it as naturaly as everybody else. It just seems that he doesn't really know what's...appropriate for the situation. Quote: Basically, you just seem to be reiterating what you already said, THANK YOU GOD!!! I was afraid I'd be repeating myself for pages if someone didn't notice that I'm just saying the same thing and that everyone else is too... Quote: and my opinion on that remains the same. Confusion and/or lack of knowledge when it comes to sex or dating does not make one an uke. As I said before, many teenage boys don't have experience, but they're still going to be seme over whatever girl they choose to be with. Obviously, you don't have to know EXACTLY what you're doing to be seme. Everyone's hesitant at first, that's the nature of learning to be in a relationship. Doesn't that become a bit more confusing if your first time is with a guy? Then who has to be seme? That's he only flaw in that arguement. Would they both try? Or would one of them just go with the flow? Given Naruto's competitive nature, yes, he could be seme, but that's ignoring his sensitivity (he doesn't show it very often, but it's still there.) At this point though, it's all just a matter of opinion. Why don't we just agree to disagree and go on our merry ways? wink
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:06 pm
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:28 pm
Haku
Shikamaru
Naruto(occasionally)
Kabuto(when he's with orochimaru)
Sasuke.
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