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1: Man WAS created without sin. However, God created us to love Him by choice. God could have made us robots (like the four beasts in Revelation that cry "holy holy holy" day and night), but He wanted actual love, not a "mama" doll. Therefore, we had to be able in some way to reject Him (through sin). They didn't have to.

2: Yes, genetics do play a part. However, it is demonic power in the family that is reflected in the genetics, and it can be broken from by the power of God.

3: God does not send us to hell.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Satan opposed God from heaven, with full knowledge of the consequences. Hell was prepared for him and his followers. Anyone who breaks God's Law, ever, is a servant of Satan, and subject to him as their master. Thus, since Satan is punished in hell, and sinners belong to Satan, they must, by just law, follow him into punishment.

Also, "Hell forever" isn't "bad" any more than "heaven forever" is "good". Time is suspended after Judgment, as well as the ability to sin; those in heaven can never go to hell, and those in hell can never go to heaven. If those that committed sin were only in hell a little while, then went to heaven forever, then what is the point of being saved? That would be unjust. That makes about as much sense as two children told not to touch Dad's computer, one does and one doesn't, so the one that disobeyed gets the same amount of reward as the one that obeyed, just later. There is no incentive to obey, because you will get rewarded wether you obey or not. God will not reward disobedience, ever.

4: God is a God of love
God cannot allow those that are not perfect enter into fellowship with Him, because He cannot be tainted. Sin is repugnant to Him. Divine Law dictated that sin must be punished, and punishment is eternal because after the judgment time will no longer exist. However, God is compassionate and does not want us to go to hell. To that end, He demonstrated His love for us by paying for our sins.
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Because we are spiritually slaves to sin (that whole "can't help it" thing), we are spiritually bankrupt to pay our own debt. All our works are tainted, and therefore impure to apply to our debt. That's why Jesus died on the cross. His suffering and shedding of blood, and His death, were payment to God's Law for our transgressions. With the fine paid, God can, if we go to Him, erase that sin that seperates us from Him, because Divine Justice has been satisfied. However, we must accept the payment.

I will clarify anything that doesn't make sense, let me know.

But even with that definition, God isn't completely fair.



Colossians 1:16-17 - 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

God holds the universe together. Everything would be destroyed if God simply withdrew His hand from it.

Acts 17:24-25 - 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Everything we have comes from God, including the very air that we breathe. We have no power to live on our own.



But that's not what happened. Everyone has the choice not to sin.



But it is our fault. We absolutely choose to be as "ungodly" as we are. Did you choose which sins you would commit? I know I did.



In relation to God, no. Why did God create us? Of what necessity? For what benefit? Actually, He didn't need to make us at all, but He simply did it for His own pleasure.

God has intrinsic value simply because He is. Everything else comes from Him, and thus any value we have is really from Him as well. However, God did not come from anything, He simply is.



It's only an analogy, don't take it too far.



Because, as Woodlock said, God wanted us specifically to be able to choose to obey Him. He wanted us to be able to choose to love Him. How much better would fellowship be with someone who actively chose to love and obey you, instead of someone who was simply incapable of disobeying?



Well, first of all, that would not be incentive enough since the time in hell would always be infinitely less than the reward in heaven. Also, I think we often think of heaven and hell in the wrong terms. I think it is most likely that heaven and hell are outside of the passage of time, just as God Himself is. If this is the case, then there could be no amount of time spent in one place or another. Time would no longer be, so we would not actually be spending an eternity of time in either place, but rather just existing always at once wherever we are. Also, this would clearly mean that you could only end up in either heaven or hell, and could not ever move between.



And why should a disobedient child be rewarded at all?



Rejecting God is, and the Bible says that the common revelation of creation makes no one without excuse.



Probably because, as I said above, when you exit time and enter "eternity" then your "eternity" is settled once and for all.

"And by him all things consist" seems to suggest that all substance is God...
Is this what it is suggesting?


"Seeing he giveth to all life, and breath" seems to suggest that He gave us those things, but that doesn't imply that we couldn't exist without God.


But did you choose to have the desires that you do? The cravings and the emotions? I don't think so. And it is these things that lead to 'sin'.


But do not we exist, as God does, right now? In order for us to gain no worth from existing while God does, we would have to be part of God.

I had thought that it was impossible to perceive things if not in the context of a time...
So, how much suffering would there be in this 'outside-time' hell?


You're right, maybe they shouldn't.
But they do not have to be punished, either.

Note: God doesn't "have to" punish them; God has to do what is justice, yes? And I fail to see how unnecessary punishment is justice.
Unless the punishment actually serves a purpose, I fail to see how it's necessary.

Tell that to the Australian Aboriginal, Native American, Native African, Eskimo, Indonesian, Chinese, Japanese and Indian peoples.

Go ahead, ask them if they have had a revelation of Christ.
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Note: The Bible repeatedly states that, maybe.

Yes. A creation needs a creator. But perhaps not everything that exists is a creation? For example, God apparently exists without a creator, yes? So why not us?

Since this is so widely misunderstood, lemme give ye a little recap on the theory of evolution, 'kay?
1. There are variations in a population due to mutation.

2. Environmental factors cause some variations to be more likely to successfully lead to reproduction than others.

3. Descendants tend to inherit the features of their parent(s).

Conclusion 1. Therefore, consequent generations are therefore more likely to exhibit a variation which was successful in leading to reproduction.

Conclusion 2.Therefore, with each generation, there will be a larger percentage of the population which have this successful feature than those which don't.

Definition. When the majority of the population exhibits this successful feature, the species is said to "evolve".
Do you deny there are variations within a population?
Do you deny that environmental circumstances influence survival?
Do you deny that children inherit their parents' features?
No? Then the the logical conclusion is that evolution occurs. Not to mention that it's a little hard to deny the many instances of observed speciation.
Note that evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life (just the origin of species).

Just browsing through the items below, I think I should give ya a little recap on what science is, as well.
Science is a logical methodology of discovering knowledge about the observable universe. The current theories and discoveries which have been made through scientific techniques are not science. They are the consequence.

The only thing which is "visible" per se, is light.

If that passage had said, "And all matter is made up of quarks and leptons, all with properties of mass and some with properties of charge, the main constituent of this matter being neutrons and protons, and with electrons occupying different energy levels around the inner nucleus", or something like that, I would think it's referring to atoms.
But as it is? Nah.

1. A circle is not a sphere; a circle is 2d, and occupies a single plane.
2. There are several other passages that mention "four corners". While you're twisting the words, you might wanna consider that.


The Earth is not being "hung" at all, let alone on nothing.

1. It is known that the water is evaporated into the atmosphere, where it travels via air currents until something makes it fall (ie a mountain, which causes the air current to rise, bringing the water to a colder part of the atmostphere, and so condensing).
It wouldn't be too hard to realize that the rain somehow comes from the ocean, and I don't see how a man of the time couldn't have easily observed that it must be a cycle.

2. They passeth through the 'paths' of the seas. What else would they pass through? It's not being very specific when it says 'paths', is it?

3. It doesn't end, and wind flows in different directions in different places, so it must be a circuit. Not very hard to deduce.

In regard to these things: What are you trying to suggest? That only God could have said these things, 'cause people of the time were just too stupid?


As I recall, they used to think that disease was caused by bad blood.


It wasn't very hard to observe that dirty people got sick more often!

1. This conclusion has absolutely nothing to do with what you just said.
2. "Didn't know better" doesn't go against all reason.

Romans 7:7 - What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

It isn't intrinsic knowledge.


As I said before, try telling that to everyone of every other culture and religion. See if they agree, hmm?

1: We all have a conscience, and it testifies to us of our actions whether or not we have heard the gospel

2: Punishment unneccessary by whose standards? God's standard is perfect, 100%, and no one could ever do anything to you that would grieve you as bad as one lie grieves God. It is righteous judgment, and requires punishment. Do you think the justice system of crime and punishment just "came to be" for society? No, God modeled it after His system of punishment.

Actually, as the one challenging the status quo of the group, you would be the one with the burden of proof, which means you would have to provide more than personal opinion as to why your surroundings could not possibly indicate a divine creator.



Because the universe is a complex structure. It was created, whether by God or by some random event. An example of something to be caused is you causing me to spill my ice cream. That's a simple result with no order or function. The universe is ordered and functional, whether or not it was created by God.



Christianity teaches that everyone is capable of knowing what to avoid. The fact that you believe otherwise has little bearing on the possibility of the doctrine's validity.

Not so. There have been things that I have deserved and not received, since it was not necessary for me to receive them. There have been things that I have not deserved and have received, since it was not necessary for me to not receive them.

I think the logical flaw is that you have only proven that the state of deserving something is necessary, but you have not proven that receiving what you deserve is necessary. So, the fact that someone deserves punishment for their crime is necessary, but receiving that punishment is not necessary.



I don't know about you, but I make my own choices. And, even if we agree that we are heavily influenced, that doesn't change the fact that we had to make our own ultimate decisions. A murderer who is heavily influenced by his upbringing is no less guilty and deserving of punishment than a murderer who decides to kill completely on his own.



Even in America, ignorance of the law does not excuse you from it. If you commit a crime, you are held accountable. God made Himself clear and made the law available, and we are all without excuse.



Yes, but my point is that, if they rejected God, they would reject Christ. They are no different than you, who has rejected God with the knowledge of Christ.



You've had the revelation, and you've chosen to reject it.



So, what else do you think could have caused the universe to come into being?



Regardless, they're still guilty.

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