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 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:52 pm
In video game terms, yeah. I wouldn't push to see Tales of Symphonia and FF off of the RPG rack at Gamestop, but they're not actually RPGs.
In fact, in only a minority of all RPGs is there any role-playing. Oblivion, Morrowind, KoTOR, Fable, any MMORPG, and most other BioWare games are RPGs, because you play the role of an actual character. In FFVII, for example, the only real role-playing I can think of is that your date is chosen by who you focused on during the game.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:58 pm
[.Faust.] In video game terms, yeah. I wouldn't push to see Tales of Symphonia and FF off of the RPG rack at Gamestop, but they're not actually RPGs.
In fact, in only a minority of all RPGs is there any role-playing. Oblivion, Morrowind, KoTOR, Fable, any MMORPG, and most other BioWare games are RPGs, because you play the role of an actual character. In FFVII, for example, the only real role-playing I can think of is that your date is chosen by who you focused on during the game. Actually Faust I hate to break this to you..... but I own all those games and I have been playing Actual RPGs in the truest sense of the word for over 10 years and to be blunt...... none of those are RPGs...... your character is customizable yes...... but your choices are not completley open. Even Morrowind and Oblivion fall prey to the very problem you are complaining about..... they just hide it better In the end your choices actually have minimial impact on the game overall..... you have the same basic story, the same antagonist, and the same choices no matter how you "choose" to play the game or build your character Bioware has mastered the art of creating an illusion of choice while they run you through what is honestly a very linear story for the most part..... even though games like KotOR let you choose the order of the planets.... if you look more closley only the middle section is open, and even that is more of a hub system than actual choice in the end all console RPGs Japanese or otherwise suffer the same flaw..... they can not be designed the way true RPGs are because it is not possable to leave the story and character compleltey open to choice of the player
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:00 pm
[.Faust.] In video game terms, yeah. I wouldn't push to see Tales of Symphonia and FF off of the RPG rack at Gamestop, but they're not actually RPGs.
In fact, in only a minority of all RPGs is there any role-playing. Oblivion, Morrowind, KoTOR, Fable, any MMORPG, and most other BioWare games are RPGs, because you play the role of an actual character. In FFVII, for example, the only real role-playing I can think of is that your date is chosen by who you focused on during the game. That would be wonderful if a genre was defined directly by it's title. But it's not. There are certain characteristics and expectations beyond the title that categorize a genre. If you were looking at just the words "Role Playing Game", then yes, in FFVII you're playing the role of Cloud (except for a short period of time). I see nothing in the title of the genre that indicates your descisions have to have an impact on the outcome of the game.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:07 pm
Dampylle [.Faust.] In video game terms, yeah. I wouldn't push to see Tales of Symphonia and FF off of the RPG rack at Gamestop, but they're not actually RPGs.
In fact, in only a minority of all RPGs is there any role-playing. Oblivion, Morrowind, KoTOR, Fable, any MMORPG, and most other BioWare games are RPGs, because you play the role of an actual character. In FFVII, for example, the only real role-playing I can think of is that your date is chosen by who you focused on during the game. Actually Faust I hate to break this to you..... but I own all those games and I have been playing Actual RPGs in the truest sense of the word for over 10 years and to be blunt...... none of those are RPGs...... your character is customizable yes...... but your choices are not completley open. Even Morrowind and Oblivion fall prey to the very problem you are complaining about..... they just hide it better In the end your choices actually have minimial impact on the game overall..... you have the same basic story, the same antagonist, and the same choices no matter how you "choose" to play the game or build your character Bioware has mastered the art of creating an illusion of choice while they run you through what is honestly a very linear story for the most part..... even though games like KotOR let you choose the order of the planets.... if you look more closley only the middle section is open, and even that is more of a hub system than actual choice in the end all console RPGs Japanese or otherwise suffer the same flaw..... they can not be designed the way true RPGs are because it is not possable to leave the story and character compleltey open to choice of the player
I'd say the only true RPG would be Dungeons and Dragons. I know there are offshoots, like the Star Wars versions, but Dungeons and Dragons is the only RPG that allows you to do anything. There are rules in the Players Handbook for lasers and futuristic settings, which can be modified to fit movies, or whatever else you want to do.
Still, I'd say Morrowind is probably the closest we've yet come to a true video game RPG. I liked Oblivion better, but Morrowind, hands down, offered more to you in the way of alternate lifestyles. If you don't want to play the main quest, you don't have to. Hell, if you commit a single murder at the beginning of the game, you can go throughout the rest of the game making money by farming, or selling goods, or whatever you like.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:08 pm
The term "role playing game" has been around far longer than video games. When they pushed to closely emulate it with video games, what people commonly call the RPG was born. But that's not to say it actually reproduced the initial role playing game formula.
Analogously... Board games have been around for thousands of years. Not all board games actually use boards. Are they really board games? There is no right answer to that.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:10 pm
[.Faust.] Dampylle [.Faust.] In video game terms, yeah. I wouldn't push to see Tales of Symphonia and FF off of the RPG rack at Gamestop, but they're not actually RPGs.
In fact, in only a minority of all RPGs is there any role-playing. Oblivion, Morrowind, KoTOR, Fable, any MMORPG, and most other BioWare games are RPGs, because you play the role of an actual character. In FFVII, for example, the only real role-playing I can think of is that your date is chosen by who you focused on during the game. Actually Faust I hate to break this to you..... but I own all those games and I have been playing Actual RPGs in the truest sense of the word for over 10 years and to be blunt...... none of those are RPGs...... your character is customizable yes...... but your choices are not completley open. Even Morrowind and Oblivion fall prey to the very problem you are complaining about..... they just hide it better In the end your choices actually have minimial impact on the game overall..... you have the same basic story, the same antagonist, and the same choices no matter how you "choose" to play the game or build your character Bioware has mastered the art of creating an illusion of choice while they run you through what is honestly a very linear story for the most part..... even though games like KotOR let you choose the order of the planets.... if you look more closley only the middle section is open, and even that is more of a hub system than actual choice in the end all console RPGs Japanese or otherwise suffer the same flaw..... they can not be designed the way true RPGs are because it is not possable to leave the story and character compleltey open to choice of the player
I'd say the only true RPG would be Dungeons and Dragons. I know there are offshoots, like the Star Wars versions, but Dungeons and Dragons is the only RPG that allows you to do anything. There are rules in the Players Handbook for lasers and futuristic settings, which can be modified to fit movies, or whatever else you want to do.
Still, I'd say Morrowind is probably the closest we've yet come to a true video game RPG. I liked Oblivion better, but Morrowind, hands down, offered more to you in the way of alternate lifestyles. If you don't want to play the main quest, you don't have to. Hell, if you commit a single murder at the beginning of the game, you can go throughout the rest of the game making money by farming, or selling goods, or whatever you like. Well there's your problem. You're comparing a video game genre to pen and paper games. Like you said yourself, under that definition, no video game is an RPG. Edit: And The Sims, which is generally not considered an RPG, would come closer than any of the games you listed.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:17 pm
Omnipotent Trevor [.Faust.] In video game terms, yeah. I wouldn't push to see Tales of Symphonia and FF off of the RPG rack at Gamestop, but they're not actually RPGs.
In fact, in only a minority of all RPGs is there any role-playing. Oblivion, Morrowind, KoTOR, Fable, any MMORPG, and most other BioWare games are RPGs, because you play the role of an actual character. In FFVII, for example, the only real role-playing I can think of is that your date is chosen by who you focused on during the game. That would be wonderful if a genre was defined directly by it's title. But it's not. There are certain characteristics and expectations beyond the title that categorize a genre. If you were looking at just the words "Role Playing Game", then yes, in FFVII you're playing the role of Cloud (except for a short period of time). I see nothing in the title of the genre that indicates your descisions have to have an impact on the outcome of the game.
Well then technically, any game that has a main character would be an RPG. By "role-playing", generally it means that you're the character. In the FF series, you're not the character, but someone controlling his actions while he plays out the story on the screen.
Using the Morrowind analogy, you're the character. If you want to go into the main quest, you can. If you want to rob people on the highway, you can. If you want to gather fruit and sell them in town every couple weeks, you can. In the FF games, you're pretty much restricted to watching whatever the writers want you to do.
That is, by no means, a bad thing. I think of it as an incredibly long interactive movie. Often, it's a very good, incredibly long interactive movie.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:21 pm
Omnipotent Trevor [.Faust.] Dampylle [.Faust.] In video game terms, yeah. I wouldn't push to see Tales of Symphonia and FF off of the RPG rack at Gamestop, but they're not actually RPGs.
In fact, in only a minority of all RPGs is there any role-playing. Oblivion, Morrowind, KoTOR, Fable, any MMORPG, and most other BioWare games are RPGs, because you play the role of an actual character. In FFVII, for example, the only real role-playing I can think of is that your date is chosen by who you focused on during the game. Actually Faust I hate to break this to you..... but I own all those games and I have been playing Actual RPGs in the truest sense of the word for over 10 years and to be blunt...... none of those are RPGs...... your character is customizable yes...... but your choices are not completley open. Even Morrowind and Oblivion fall prey to the very problem you are complaining about..... they just hide it better In the end your choices actually have minimial impact on the game overall..... you have the same basic story, the same antagonist, and the same choices no matter how you "choose" to play the game or build your character Bioware has mastered the art of creating an illusion of choice while they run you through what is honestly a very linear story for the most part..... even though games like KotOR let you choose the order of the planets.... if you look more closley only the middle section is open, and even that is more of a hub system than actual choice in the end all console RPGs Japanese or otherwise suffer the same flaw..... they can not be designed the way true RPGs are because it is not possable to leave the story and character compleltey open to choice of the player
I'd say the only true RPG would be Dungeons and Dragons. I know there are offshoots, like the Star Wars versions, but Dungeons and Dragons is the only RPG that allows you to do anything. There are rules in the Players Handbook for lasers and futuristic settings, which can be modified to fit movies, or whatever else you want to do.
Still, I'd say Morrowind is probably the closest we've yet come to a true video game RPG. I liked Oblivion better, but Morrowind, hands down, offered more to you in the way of alternate lifestyles. If you don't want to play the main quest, you don't have to. Hell, if you commit a single murder at the beginning of the game, you can go throughout the rest of the game making money by farming, or selling goods, or whatever you like. Well there's your problem. You're comparing a video game genre to pen and paper games. Like you said yourself, under that definition, no video game is an RPG. Edit: And The Sims, which is generally not considered an RPG, would come closer than any of the games you listed.
And The Sims! Yes. After expansion packs, at least. Even with all the freedom, it still boiled down to "get a job, earn money, get better furniture." Basically, it was a career simulator. The later expansion packs made it into a "RPG."
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:21 pm
[.Faust.] Omnipotent Trevor [.Faust.] In video game terms, yeah. I wouldn't push to see Tales of Symphonia and FF off of the RPG rack at Gamestop, but they're not actually RPGs.
In fact, in only a minority of all RPGs is there any role-playing. Oblivion, Morrowind, KoTOR, Fable, any MMORPG, and most other BioWare games are RPGs, because you play the role of an actual character. In FFVII, for example, the only real role-playing I can think of is that your date is chosen by who you focused on during the game. That would be wonderful if a genre was defined directly by it's title. But it's not. There are certain characteristics and expectations beyond the title that categorize a genre. If you were looking at just the words "Role Playing Game", then yes, in FFVII you're playing the role of Cloud (except for a short period of time). I see nothing in the title of the genre that indicates your descisions have to have an impact on the outcome of the game.
Well then technically, any game that has a main character would be an RPG. Which is exactly why that isn't the classification of the genre. Same way any game with fighting isn't automatically a fighting game. The name is just the title of the genre, not it's deffinition. There are characteristics that fit games into said genres independant from their titles. Which is exactly what I said in the same post you just quoted.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:25 pm
Also, what is this "official definition" garbage people keep bringing up? I didn't know there was a secret society dedicated to classifying video games, and whatever they say is law.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:25 pm
[.Faust.] Well, in all fairness, pen and paper games were called RPGs long before video games were. Indeed. But it seriously confuses the issue when you think of the video game genre as the same thing. It's the same phrase that means two completely different things depending on the context. [.Faust.]
And The Sims! Yes. After expansion packs, at least. Even with all the freedom, it still boiled down to "get a job, earn money, get better furniture." Basically, it was a career simulator. The later expansion packs made it into a "RPG." Yes, even though it's generally not categorized as an RPG. That's exactly my point.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:26 pm
Omnipotent Trevor [.Faust.] Omnipotent Trevor [.Faust.] In video game terms, yeah. I wouldn't push to see Tales of Symphonia and FF off of the RPG rack at Gamestop, but they're not actually RPGs.
In fact, in only a minority of all RPGs is there any role-playing. Oblivion, Morrowind, KoTOR, Fable, any MMORPG, and most other BioWare games are RPGs, because you play the role of an actual character. In FFVII, for example, the only real role-playing I can think of is that your date is chosen by who you focused on during the game. That would be wonderful if a genre was defined directly by it's title. But it's not. There are certain characteristics and expectations beyond the title that categorize a genre. If you were looking at just the words "Role Playing Game", then yes, in FFVII you're playing the role of Cloud (except for a short period of time). I see nothing in the title of the genre that indicates your descisions have to have an impact on the outcome of the game.
Well then technically, any game that has a main character would be an RPG. Which is exactly why that isn't the classification of the genre. Same way any game with fighting isn't automatically a fighting game. The name is just the title of the genre, not it's deffinition. There are characteristics that fit games into said genres independant from their titles. Which is exactly what I said in the same post you just quoted.
...I've been saying from the beginning that "technically" none of these games are RPGs.
I'm just noting the differences between a true RPG, the only existing one being D&D at this point, and games like FF. I don't mean to say there should be some sort of a revolution, and that all games should belong in genres with thousands of sub-genres.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:28 pm
CeludenCityofHeroes Also, what is this "official definition" garbage people keep bringing up? I didn't know there was a secret society dedicated to classifying video games, and whatever they say is law. I don't remember any of us bringing up an official definition, although such a thing would surely clear things up, wouldn't it?
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:31 pm
Omnipotent Trevor CeludenCityofHeroes Also, what is this "official definition" garbage people keep bringing up? I didn't know there was a secret society dedicated to classifying video games, and whatever they say is law. I don't remember any of us bringing up an official definition, although such a thing would surely clear things up, wouldn't it? Omnipotent Trevor CeludenCityofHeroes JRPGs aren't actually RPGs. They're story-based adventure games. srsly. I have no problem with them, I just can't stand the mislabeling. No such mislabeling. They are officially RPGs. If you come up with your own personal definition that fine, but it doesn't effect the actual genre classifications. "Actual genre classifications" is the same thing as saying there's an official definition.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:33 pm
CeludenCityofHeroes Omnipotent Trevor CeludenCityofHeroes Also, what is this "official definition" garbage people keep bringing up? I didn't know there was a secret society dedicated to classifying video games, and whatever they say is law. I don't remember any of us bringing up an official definition, although such a thing would surely clear things up, wouldn't it? Omnipotent Trevor CeludenCityofHeroes JRPGs aren't actually RPGs. They're story-based adventure games. srsly. I have no problem with them, I just can't stand the mislabeling. No such mislabeling. They are officially RPGs. If you come up with your own personal definition that fine, but it doesn't effect the actual genre classifications. "Actual genre classifications" is the same thing as saying there's an official definition. I was merely trying to get across that these games do, in fact, fall into the video game genre of RPG. So I said they are actually classified as RPGs. I didn't mean to imply anything more than that. Sorry for the confusion.
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