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 Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:36 am
Hmm this is a really interesting subject. Im proud and happy to see many people see it in that way too smile
I would also like to add my appreiciation for the wonderful way people treat each other in this guild and the way they talk. Its easy to see that it is so much more fun to discuss things when mutual respect is held in high esteem. Simply being polite and carring means so much. wink
Anyway! ^^
Hmm the subject of touch is, like bro and many others said, of many opinions in different enviorments and communities.
I know many people, religious or jewish or anything, think that having sex before marriage is bad and are against it- to be perfectly frank. sweatdrop Others think its an advantage where you can learn and love at the same time and get better so you know what you're doing in the future. ^^
I can identify with both groups.
I also know that the sence of touch- relatives, friends, strangers, and lovers, all all totally different from one another. It also depends on what you're used to. If you're used to hugging total strangers (such as business accociates, like hugging before a meeting or presentation and so forth, blieve me its out there) and if you're used to touching you're friends (some would go even as far as being intimate with them, just "cuz we're friends") then there you have it. Its very, very hard to change what you're used to, and often you dont rly see why you should.
And how can just touching your friends of the opposite sex in an innocent way possible hurt? Ill try to tell you.
I have many, many opinons in this subject. I could say alot- and go on forever ^^"
but since what I want most of all is to make a point Ill tell you a story someone once told me. 3nodding
There was a poor man who met the women of his dreams, he loved her dearly and cherished her more then he could ever possible cherish another. heart
They decided to get married and later, after the cemeromy in the Yichud room (the room the bride and groom go into after the wedding to be together, and often exchange marriage presents ^^) the groom turned to the bride and told her he hadnt been able to buy her a present for he had no money, it had been used up to buy her a ring. But he told her he had one present for he, the most precious gift of all, that a person can give the one they love. He turned to her and said: "I give u the gift of myself. I love you and I am here with you. I have never touched another women, never held anyone else before and I am completely yours. All yours to love and cherish forever, I love you and Ill never leave you."
It was indeed the most precious gift he could ever have given her. Think about it a moment, what would u want from the one u love and want to marry? question
I think that whoever wants to see a point here will see it.
Think how the wife would feel if she wouldnt be able to give her husband back the same present? redface
Do you want to be in that situation?
I know, in many places things between people r different. Touch, love, living together, marriage, everything is viewed differently.
Im not telling anyone to change their opinion on things but Im asking for you to think about it. Touch, leads irresistably to other things.
Men very rarly touch a women without the inner want to feel them. The same with women towards men. Even an innocent friendly hug between friends has something in it. No, im not going to shun u for hugging ur guy friend or kissing a girl friend goodbye, and god will not strike u down with a bolt of lightning when you do so. sweatdrop wink The whole big deal about touch is essentially for YOU. you.
When each any every one fo you finally finds the one the want to spend the rest of their lives with, one of the most imporant things u will need with this person is trust and loyalty, love and respect.
no matter how small the element of touch is, if you see the person u love touching another- be honest and ask urself if that wouldnt bother you.
At a young age everything is innocent, but when u grow older your habbits of touching will matter more.
Right now you see no harm in kissing your guy friend goodbye, but soon you'll see he likes u more then you thought he did, and later you'll know that his feelings for you bother you one you really love, it the tension creates awkwardness in your relationship. I know you people consider that to be - that that person needs to trust you, and just blieve in what you have. But I dissagree. he does trust you, and its not his fault he wants you all to himself. Its simply ebcause he loves you. Why give him reasons to doubt that you truly love him back?
Hope I made SOME kind of point lol. wink 4laugh All in all... you people just do what you feel is right to do. smile Im not going to set rules for anyone. Just know that you cant let yourself do things just because others do them, or things u know you'll regret..
If you have fun with someone now, just for the aspect of pleasure - it'll later come back to you like a boomerang. You'll regret it. Please, respect others, respect the person you love, but most of all respect yourself, because its for you ^^
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:25 am
that story was really cute, lol i was like "OOO I KNOW WHAT SHE SAID"
she said ::look at ring:: You spent all your money on this! -.- i knew i should have marrired that old 93 year old millionare. -.-
lol
nah nah seriousness the story was awsomely cute
But when does the touching not count?
i mean like when are we willing to ignore the touching that has gone one?
do we never ignore it.
in someways i think there is to much like enpahsis put on girls virginity and such.
it's nice idea too keep the whores from going around and like just doing tons of bad stuff
but i mean what about the girls that have no control of what happens to them, are we going to shun them out to. are we going to not just give them a wittle bit of understanding. I mean i understand that it's important no matter what and there is no excuse, i guess i just don't like how much enphasis there is on it.
i guess i just want someone to explain this to me. i understand why it's importnat, i understand why you do go around touching and sleepign with tons of other people, but what about the people that didn't have a choice, that didn't have control, or that were so young they didn't understand what was going on.
are they still just as bad as the people whom knew what was going on and did it on purpose?
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:31 am
YvetteEmilieDupont i guess i just want someone to explain this to me. i understand why it's importnat, i understand why you do go around touching and sleepign with tons of other people, but what about the people that didn't have a choice, that didn't have control, or that were so young they didn't understand what was going on. are they still just as bad as the people whom knew what was going on and did it on purpose? Of course there is a difference between those that didnt know and those who do it on purpose. People usually over-rate it because no-one can prove whether it was on purpose or not - some people don't care to check, as it makes no difference to them. However, if its a case is where the husband is the understanding type, knows the truth, and accepts it willingly - then its okay 3nodding .
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:07 pm
darkphoenix1247 YAY! Another person to join in the debate! biggrin Thank you for making some good points; it adds very well to the discussion 3nodding I do disagree on one count, though; I disagree that bad things are erased completely. I don't quite think it's right that one person could do something completely horrible, like rape or murder, apologize, and then be let off for it. I only think it's right that there is some punishment. If one does something badly, they apologize, and everything is fine and dandy, there is no lesson learned in that. You may keep apologizing but not really mean it, and then that only hurts you in the end; A leopard never changes his spots. I also think if a girl gives herself up at a young age, it doesn't really matter if she asks for forgiveness. I would of course feel bad for her, as she was "young and foolish," but that is no excuse. To put the blame not on themselves as a person, but to their own maturity level or age, then I don't feel that's right. A person is always, and will always be, responsible for their own actions. People make mistakes-I've made tons in my life, and feel bad about them, but if I were to erase them from my memory, then I wouldn't learn anything. Anyway, I think this is getting a bit off topic, so I'll just stop now-sorry sweatdrop lol no, I think it was extreamly important to mention that. I agree with you completely. People are always responsible for their own actions but you cant tell that to someone who had absolutely no choice or that the choice was either die or do what you were told to do. (things like this have alot of details in the mishna and stuff) I cant let myself tell someone who was raped when they were 7 years old or soemthing that they were responsible for it. I think its an important point, but I think the main thing to focus on here is to impress apon them that is they want to repent and do tshuvah, to keep a good path from now on- that they can, and it would be wonderful to do so instead of wallow in self pity or guilt. Why tear urself apart when the Lord DOES forgive? Though that brings up the other strong point u made, about how exactly do u repent. Its pretty obvious u cant just say- oh sorry, my bad, and move on and maybe do it again and so forth. I think that doesnt get anyone anywhere, and G-d cirtainly doesnt accept that kind of appology. Repenting for sins isnt like putting a nickle in a machine and getting out forgivnes. You have to really mean it, regret it, and most important take apon yourself the vow that you will try your hardest to never do the same sin again. This should be said with a full heart because once u make a promise to G-d and urself, u cant take it back. About the subject of people who did something to someone and didnt have something happen to THEM. Welllllll, thats totally different ^^" I find it hard, truly hard to forgive someone who has murdered, raped, or physically/ mentaly hurt someone. Even on purpose, even not. When you hurt, you take responsibility for it, same as everything. Its hard to change ur habbits, and like you said, spots that are part of you dont come off. A murderer or rapist that cant control themselves should be locked up, or dealt with medically. People who hurt MUST understand how damaging it is, or else shunned. There is really no other way. You cant let someone who enjoys inflicting pain on others go around doing it. You are right. If someone keeps on apologizing and apologizing and not meaning, not only will his appologies be rejected but people will stop blieveing him and trusting his word. Also, people learn from mistakes, so so much. Its the way of man, to live and then choose what he wants to get out of every expirience in his life. Sorrow and pain are mixed in with the happiness. I regret deeply many things, but if I had to do my life over Id do the same mistakes all over again, because the lesson to be learned each time was pricless. Anyway, lol u were bang on the subject and i thank u for bringing up those points smile If anyone wants to kick me out for writting mini novels in your thread, blieve me I'll understand lol m not sure people even have the patience to read it all sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:41 pm
YvetteEmilieDupont that story was really cute, lol i was like "OOO I KNOW WHAT SHE SAID" she said ::look at ring:: You spent all your money on this! -.- i knew i should have marrired that old 93 year old millionare. -.- lol nah nah seriousness the story was awsomely cute But when does the touching not count? i mean like when are we willing to ignore the touching that has gone one? do we never ignore it. in someways i think there is to much like enpahsis put on girls virginity and such. it's nice idea too keep the whores from going around and like just doing tons of bad stuff but i mean what about the girls that have no control of what happens to them, are we going to shun them out to. are we going to not just give them a wittle bit of understanding. I mean i understand that it's important no matter what and there is no excuse, i guess i just don't like how much enphasis there is on it. i guess i just want someone to explain this to me. i understand why it's importnat, i understand why you do go around touching and sleepign with tons of other people, but what about the people that didn't have a choice, that didn't have control, or that were so young they didn't understand what was going on. are they still just as bad as the people whom knew what was going on and did it on purpose? My dear Chaya your question is a good and important one What I was talking about earlier had to do with the way you behave, the way you want to deal with life. When things happen against your will, unexpected, innocent, things u have absolutely no control over, its is completely not your fault. Sometimes its another's fault, sometimes its no-one's fault. It doesnt matter. What happened doesnt matter, and why should it? What matters it what you do afterwards, what you decide to do with your life and what you grow to be. That's what is important. Its also important not to be afraid of the past. ^^ Hashem is watching over you, so whatever happened happened. And everything is going to be okay. smile Hmm touching that has been, touching or whatever, all that matters, in my opinion, is how you mean to live your life. If you know bad things have happened but you want to lead a straight and honest life, The Torah says the things that happened are erased comepletely, and I agree with it. Its another thing to have had bad things happen, say its not your fault but not feel sure u want to prevent them in the future. If you are what you say you are, if you are the person you want to be, then be it. lol, I think in the twentieth century the virginity of girls sadly cannot be judged at ALL. For only about 0.1 percent of the female populace it remains their own decision if they want to remain virgins. Sometimes others think it is up to them to decide for them, and may G-d pay them back in the fullness of their cruelty. If something has happened to a girl and shes no longer a virgin, or has a kid, or whatever, but wants to lead a straight life then this person is amazing!! Shes gone through hell but she still wants to fallow a good way of life. Never, ever would it be okay to shun these people! It is kind of you to understand why someone might shun them, but I am totally against it. What happened was totally aginst this girls control. And even if she had a choice, but has now fully regretted her ways, she should be accepted with a full heart and full understanding. Of course we'd understand them. How could someone hold against them what is in the past and what was against their control? How could someone be so cruel? Emphasis should be put on people how its important to fallow cirtain rules about how to live ur life. As u put it nicley, to stop all those whores from running around. Yeah, wish we could put all of those women in psycological training as they r seriously flipped in the head. If you have any questions whatsoever on this subject, I am more then willing to answer them as best as I can ^^" im not an expert, but if anything's bothering you or you have questions, I want to help. smile One thing should be made clear. Many people make mistakes, young or even not so young. What is important is who they wish to be, and how they put their beliefs into action. The Torah forgives people who repent, and people who make mistakes. And if a person had no control- of course they are not to blame!! G-d forbid, its against everything I blieve in to shun and blmae someone for something they never meant to do and tell them they were wrong to do it and all of that mean stuff to say. Because they werent. They were innocent. They are not bad!! Even people who have done it on purpose can repent. Its all on how u decide in your heart to live your life. if you respect this holy pure thing, or if you dont. If you do, nothing else matters. The Torahs forgives, and if it does then no person, no Jew in the world has a right to go against it. Even if people will hold something like that against a person, those people should be ignored. If something happened to a person and someone shunned them, hated them for it even then it wasnt their fault, then the person should let the words they said go right into one ear and out the nearest exit. They are foolish and misunderstanding. For there is nothing so beautiful as someone who has had some troubles in the past and has found the strength to overcome them. 3nodding Im so sorry this is long ^^" its just important for me to say this. Btw, lol, thanks, Im glad u liked the story. Your comment on it made me crack up rofl
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:42 pm
I dont usually write so long ^^"
lol, please pardon me people. Im sorryyy sweatdrop
Im in a freshly new writting frenzy biggrin
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:47 pm
LittleBakedBean I dont usually write so long ^^" lol, please pardon me people. Im sorryyy sweatdrop Im in a freshly new writting frenzy biggrin ok i say lets just give this girl a publishing company >.> you're making me run for my money int he talking alot department edit: the cathlics put an enphasis on it they were all like "you have to be a virgin if you don't god won't like you. your husband won't like you as much." then you're like "well what if some chick is raped" "well thats not as bad but you should still be a virgin" like "stupid mo**** Fu****s, some help you are."
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:49 pm
YAY! Another person to join in the debate! biggrin
Thank you for making some good points; it adds very well to the discussion 3nodding
I do disagree on one count, though; I disagree that bad things are erased completely. I don't quite think it's right that one person could do something completely horrible, like rape or murder, apologize, and then be let off for it. I only think it's right that there is some punishment. If one does something badly, they apologize, and everything is fine and dandy, there is no lesson learned in that.
You may keep apologizing but not really mean it, and then that only hurts you in the end; A leopard never changes his spots.
I also think if a girl gives herself up at a young age, it doesn't really matter if she asks for forgiveness. I would of course feel bad for her, as she was "young and foolish," but that is no excuse. To put the blame not on themselves as a person, but to their own maturity level or age, then I don't feel that's right. A person is always, and will always be, responsible for their own actions. People make mistakes-I've made tons in my life, and feel bad about them, but if I were to erase them from my memory, then I wouldn't learn anything.
Anyway, I think this is getting a bit off topic, so I'll just stop now-sorry sweatdrop
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:51 pm
YvetteEmilieDupont LittleBakedBean I dont usually write so long ^^" lol, please pardon me people. Im sorryyy sweatdrop Im in a freshly new writting frenzy biggrin ok i say lets just give this girl a publishing company >.> you're making me run for my money int he talking alot department My pleasure sister razz I could never top you though uve got this hang of writting nice funny warm stuff to people often wink I hope I made some sence in my novel too. sweatdrop yay publishing company! lol Nathan would probably put me out a of bussiness.
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:06 pm
nah, the length of your posts is fine 3nodding
Just maybe work on the grammar and spelling a bit, though, please. Sorry-grammar is kind of a pet peeve of mine sweatdrop
Sorry sweatdrop sweatdrop
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:35 am
darkphoenix1247 nah, the length of your posts is fine 3nodding Just maybe work on the grammar and spelling a bit, though, please. Sorry-grammar is kind of a pet peeve of mine sweatdrop Sorry sweatdrop sweatdrop lol heeee hehehe biggrin rofl Sure, no problem razz As you guys r accepting me lol Ill do anything you ask Grammer is sure not one of my strong points ^^"
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:10 am
darkphoenix1247 nah, the length of your posts is fine 3nodding Just maybe work on the grammar and spelling a bit, though, please. Sorry-grammar is kind of a pet peeve of mine sweatdrop Sorry sweatdrop sweatdrop I post in ED-Politics all the time. (well, more like lurk..) and those people always write crazy long diatribes. You're like a breath of fresh air. wink
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:24 am
Imagine having such a sweet bean for a sister rofl .
I wonder where zonko has been? sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 1:38 pm
nathan_ngl Imagine having such a sweet bean for a sister rofl . I wonder where zonko has been? sweatdrop I dunno- it's been too quiet sad
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:10 am
darkphoenix1247 nathan_ngl Imagine having such a sweet bean for a sister rofl . I wonder where zonko has been? sweatdrop I dunno- it's been too quiet sad yea it has... you don't think something happened to him did you cry i was always so bad with teasing him. i mean not his fault he's so overly smart right. the guild.. feels.. inactive in a way. nathan is posting alot yes but we don't have the zonko and the things that come with zonko posting. cry
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