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 Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:57 pm
Joshua_Ritter The FLCL Guy Yagi Tessil Warning: The following post is mostly my skepticism talking, mixed with a bit of my own confusion and curiosity. Be forewarned.[skepticism] Zero Falling and being forsaken is to differant things. When you fall God still "loves" you but when your forsaken God turns his back on you. If there really is an "All-Loving-God" with "unlimited powers of forgiveness", it seems rather unlikely that he would completely abandon any of his children, don't you think? Could he not destroy that which he hath created? *raises eyebrow* Zero And an angel is forsaken when he says he is going to kill God and really can Besides, even if Zero did threaten/attempt to kill God, would a war not have broken out in the Heavens where all of the Angels(I'd imagine that Michael/Mikael would take a stand against the rebel for certain.) who desire to defend God would rise up against him, finding strength through unity to attempt to bring the traitor down? If such a war did break out, would there not be documentation of it as there was of the supposed war which ended with the damnation of Lucifer and his followers(One of which was Ariel..I think..@.@;; *needs to review her Angelology book*)? Also, if God created everything, including the infinite, would that not make him infinite as well? That's to say that his own existance would parallel the infinite number of things that he created? If he was infinite, and the fact that it was said that being in Heaven with him meant LIFE ETERNAL, then wouldn't that mean that it would be impossible to kill God?[/skepticism] [curiosity]Here's another question.. Since Angels have been known to appear in all sorts of religious writings all over the world..Does that mean that there is no right religion in that they are all right? That there are a whole bunch of different Gods out there right now and that Zero was serving under the "Christian" one? With regards to "Lucifer" and "Satan": Though it is often said that they are one and the same and are the 'devil', the "Ultimate Evil", I've been told that they were simply mistranslations of the Bible. "Lucifer" was apparently the Babylonian ruler who shot a flaming arrow towards the heavens to spite God or something before the tower of Babylon fell. "Satan", on the other hand, is often said to be a mistranslation from Hebrew; it apparently wasn't meant to designate a person but is actually supposed to mean "Rival" or something to that effect. I just thought that I'd input my two cents on that one and possibly see what those who would probably know more about the subject than I, had to say. sweatdrop [/curiosity] I hope that this post didn't seem rude, for that was not my intention at all. >.< Ok first thing is God is a ******** a*****e lier. Now that I said that you got to understand God did not make everything. 12 beings made the realms and him then two of the 12 had a child and he later is known by Raziel and is banned from heaven for having differant views then God and the fact he knows the truth about God. And if you look at religions they all have the same formate, an all powerful being and rules that you need to follow. God lied about the way the universe and humans were made also most religions were made by him to keep a kinda of choatic order for him.
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:32 pm
Zero God lied about many things. Why does everyone believe human based books on angels and such? Raziel is not an Angel he is the same type of being as God. And that Raziel is a false angel made up by the same person who made the book of Raziel which was the spell book for christians. Christian spellbook? But, I thought that they would be anti-magick because they tend to label Wiccans and Pagans as "Devil worshippers". As for why we "believe human based books on angels and such"? I do because I have nothing else to go by. Last I checked, the angels themselves didn't write any books, and if they did impart the knowledge of the heavens to the people through literature, wouldn't the unforgiving God you speak of smite them and destroy the tome? So, my question is, if we are not to believe these "human based books written by humans" (which would include the Bible and every other religious writing or even every other human written text which so much as mentions angels, by the way) what are we to believe? What else do we have to go by?
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:14 pm
Yagi Tessil Zero God lied about many things. Why does everyone believe human based books on angels and such? Raziel is not an Angel he is the same type of being as God. And that Raziel is a false angel made up by the same person who made the book of Raziel which was the spell book for christians. Christian spellbook? But, I thought that they would be anti-magick because they tend to label Wiccans and Pagans as "Devil worshippers". As for why we "believe human based books on angels and such"? I do because I have nothing else to go by. Last I checked, the angels themselves didn't write any books, and if they did impart the knowledge of the heavens to the people through literature, wouldn't the unforgiving God you speak of smite them and destroy the tome? So, my question is, if we are not to believe these "human based books written by humans" (which would include the Bible and every other religious writing or even every other human written text which so much as mentions angels, by the way) what are we to believe? What else do we have to go by? good point, So you know what im going to start a list of angels and thier jobs(well that I know of) And the book of raziel used Angels instead of Gods or Demonic rituals.
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:43 pm
The FLCL Guy Yagi Tessil Zero God lied about many things. Why does everyone believe human based books on angels and such? Raziel is not an Angel he is the same type of being as God. And that Raziel is a false angel made up by the same person who made the book of Raziel which was the spell book for christians. Christian spellbook? But, I thought that they would be anti-magick because they tend to label Wiccans and Pagans as "Devil worshippers". As for why we "believe human based books on angels and such"? I do because I have nothing else to go by. Last I checked, the angels themselves didn't write any books, and if they did impart the knowledge of the heavens to the people through literature, wouldn't the unforgiving God you speak of smite them and destroy the tome? So, my question is, if we are not to believe these "human based books written by humans" (which would include the Bible and every other religious writing or even every other human written text which so much as mentions angels, by the way) what are we to believe? What else do we have to go by? good point, So you know what im going to start a list of angels and thier jobs(well that I know of) And the book of raziel used Angels instead of Gods or Demonic rituals. Ooo! Shiny reference-y list! Yagi-chan gets to do more reading and learning! 4laugh As for The Book of Raziel..Angelic rituals, huh? That sounds interesting..*Yagi's interest has been momentarily piqued by the idea of an angelic ritual, as she'd never heard of such things before*..
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Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:43 pm
Yagi Tessil Zero God lied about many things. Why does everyone believe human based books on angels and such? Raziel is not an Angel he is the same type of being as God. And that Raziel is a false angel made up by the same person who made the book of Raziel which was the spell book for christians. Christian spellbook? But, I thought that they would be anti-magick because they tend to label Wiccans and Pagans as "Devil worshippers". Christian ceremonial magic was developed around the Middle Ages as a way of invoking angels and their power on demand. Kind of annoying, consider that angels will talk to you when they're good and ready. After a little while, though, they denied the entire thing since they were edging too close to their "evil" Pagan counterparts. ^_^ Also, on Lucifer...Lucifer was the ancient name of Venus as the Morning Star and also sometimes considered another name for Satan, since Venus' Morning Star light is the last to defy the power and brightness of the sun, symbolic of his rebellion and ultimate loss against the Christian God. Uh-oh, God as the sun? Sounds a little Paganish...*giggles* Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone there...
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:55 am
Azana Brown Yagi Tessil Zero God lied about many things. Why does everyone believe human based books on angels and such? Raziel is not an Angel he is the same type of being as God. And that Raziel is a false angel made up by the same person who made the book of Raziel which was the spell book for christians. Christian spellbook? But, I thought that they would be anti-magick because they tend to label Wiccans and Pagans as "Devil worshippers". Christian ceremonial magic was developed around the Middle Ages as a way of invoking angels and their power on demand. Kind of annoying, consider that angels will talk to you when they're good and ready. After a little while, though, they denied the entire thing since they were edging too close to their "evil" Pagan counterparts. ^_^ Also, on Lucifer...Lucifer was the ancient name of Venus as the Morning Star and also sometimes considered another name for Satan, since Venus' Morning Star light is the last to defy the power and brightness of the sun, symbolic of his rebellion and ultimate loss against the Christian God. Uh-oh, God as the sun? Sounds a little Paganish...*giggles* Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone there... *shrugs* I'm not offended by the comment, though, I can speak only on behalf of myself. The analogy of God as the Sun actually makes a lot of sense. The sun had traditionally held some significance to a lot of the early religions and beliefs from what I remember. The Ancient Egyptians did have a sun God after all, and the Greeks believed that (..Shoot..I don't remember..I'll have to play the Name-That-Deity bit here and take a wild guess..*no offence intended by the Name-That-Deity comment.*) Apollo and his chariot would bring the sun out into the morning sky and would cause it to set in the evenings..I think..*Clearly hasn't read Greek Mythology in a long while* But yeah, thanks for stating that whole Lucifer bit. But, I can see how that nickname actually makes sense for Satan with the whole "last to defy the power and brightness of the sun" thing. Invoking the power of the Angels on demand?..Doesn't that seem a little..selfish? I mean, if they were meant to receive divine assistance, wouldn't they only have to request it and if it were meant to be, it would be so? If this were the case, wouldn't they be..well..other than seemingly selfish and possibly greedy..Wouldn't they almost be altering fate and destiny by trying to force something to happen that wouldn't have otherwise been? *shrugs* Just a thought. I apologise if that didn't make much sense, though. It's early in ze morning and t3h Yagi-chan just got up. sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:31 am
Yagi Tessil *shrugs* I'm not offended by the comment, though, I can speak only on behalf of myself. The analogy of God as the Sun actually makes a lot of sense. The sun had traditionally held some significance to a lot of the early religions and beliefs from what I remember. The Ancient Egyptians did have a sun God after all, and the Greeks believed that (..Shoot..I don't remember..I'll have to play the Name-That-Deity bit here and take a wild guess..*no offence intended by the Name-That-Deity comment.*) Apollo and his chariot would bring the sun out into the morning sky and would cause it to set in the evenings..I think..*Clearly hasn't read Greek Mythology in a long while* But yeah, thanks for stating that whole Lucifer bit. But, I can see how that nickname actually makes sense for Satan with the whole "last to defy the power and brightness of the sun" thing. Invoking the power of the Angels on demand?..Doesn't that seem a little..selfish? I mean, if they were meant to receive divine assistance, wouldn't they only have to request it and if it were meant to be, it would be so? If this were the case, wouldn't they be..well..other than seemingly selfish and possibly greedy..Wouldn't they almost be altering fate and destiny by trying to force something to happen that wouldn't have otherwise been? *shrugs* Just a thought. I apologise if that didn't make much sense, though. It's early in ze morning and t3h Yagi-chan just got up. sweatdrop Selfish? Heck yes, it was selfish. But since when has selfishness stopped someone? I mean, look at the modern "I want it and I want it now" society. Get rich quick schemes, miracle diets, even magical dabbler all seem to just try and get their instant gratification and power.
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:53 pm
Azana Brown Yagi Tessil *shrugs* I'm not offended by the comment, though, I can speak only on behalf of myself. The analogy of God as the Sun actually makes a lot of sense. The sun had traditionally held some significance to a lot of the early religions and beliefs from what I remember. The Ancient Egyptians did have a sun God after all, and the Greeks believed that (..Shoot..I don't remember..I'll have to play the Name-That-Deity bit here and take a wild guess..*no offence intended by the Name-That-Deity comment.*) Apollo and his chariot would bring the sun out into the morning sky and would cause it to set in the evenings..I think..*Clearly hasn't read Greek Mythology in a long while* But yeah, thanks for stating that whole Lucifer bit. But, I can see how that nickname actually makes sense for Satan with the whole "last to defy the power and brightness of the sun" thing. Invoking the power of the Angels on demand?..Doesn't that seem a little..selfish? I mean, if they were meant to receive divine assistance, wouldn't they only have to request it and if it were meant to be, it would be so? If this were the case, wouldn't they be..well..other than seemingly selfish and possibly greedy..Wouldn't they almost be altering fate and destiny by trying to force something to happen that wouldn't have otherwise been? *shrugs* Just a thought. I apologise if that didn't make much sense, though. It's early in ze morning and t3h Yagi-chan just got up. sweatdrop Selfish? Heck yes, it was selfish. But since when has selfishness stopped someone? I mean, look at the modern "I want it and I want it now" society. Get rich quick schemes, miracle diets, even magical dabbler all seem to just try and get their instant gratification and power. Point taken. I guess there have always been people who've thought only of themselves, and not so much about anything else. Heck, that's gotta be the reason behind credit card companies being so successful; because their product(i.e. credit cards) allow people to receive instant gratification for whatever desire they have no matter the cost and no matter if they can actually afford to pay for it at present time...Only to make them pay massive interest fees and possible late charges if they can't get the sum paid off fast enough...
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:31 pm
Close but actuely Lucifer was named for that fact but him and morning star are two differant beings
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:21 pm
Yagi Tessil Azana Brown Yagi Tessil Zero God lied about many things. Why does everyone believe human based books on angels and such? Raziel is not an Angel he is the same type of being as God. And that Raziel is a false angel made up by the same person who made the book of Raziel which was the spell book for christians. Christian spellbook? But, I thought that they would be anti-magick because they tend to label Wiccans and Pagans as "Devil worshippers". Christian ceremonial magic was developed around the Middle Ages as a way of invoking angels and their power on demand. Kind of annoying, consider that angels will talk to you when they're good and ready. After a little while, though, they denied the entire thing since they were edging too close to their "evil" Pagan counterparts. ^_^ Also, on Lucifer...Lucifer was the ancient name of Venus as the Morning Star and also sometimes considered another name for Satan, since Venus' Morning Star light is the last to defy the power and brightness of the sun, symbolic of his rebellion and ultimate loss against the Christian God. Uh-oh, God as the sun? Sounds a little Paganish...*giggles* Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone there... But yeah, thanks for stating that whole Lucifer bit. But, I can see how that nickname actually makes sense for Satan with the whole "last to defy the power and brightness of the sun" thing. Invoking the power of the Angels on demand?..Doesn't that seem a little..selfish? I mean, if they were meant to receive divine assistance, wouldn't they only have to request it and if it were meant to be, it would be so? If this were the case, wouldn't they be..well..other than seemingly selfish and possibly greedy..Wouldn't they almost be altering fate and destiny by trying to force something to happen that wouldn't have otherwise been? *shrugs* Just a thought. I apologise if that didn't make much sense, though. It's early in ze morning and t3h Yagi-chan just got up. sweatdrop To start, I am surprised you actualy knew he was the last, but techniquely not the last of "angel" kind to diffy "God". It is pretty complicated and goes back to the beginning of creation. Also to invoke an angel you need its true name, you just can call on it. You can call on it, by a name given to it by humanity and then it has a choice. If one knows the true name, which angels usualy don't share, the angel must come. It is kind of like a binding. So if someone goes through the trouble of tricking an angel or spending thier whole life researching, I say they have a right to be greedy.
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:49 pm
cowwwcowww To start, I am surprised you actualy knew he was the last, but techniquely not the last of "angel" kind to diffy "God". It is pretty complicated and goes back to the beginning of creation. Also to invoke an angel you need its true name, you just can call on it. You can call on it, by a name given to it by humanity and then it has a choice. If one knows the true name, which angels usualy don't share, the angel must come. It is kind of like a binding. So if someone goes through the trouble of tricking an angel or spending thier whole life researching, I say they have a right to be greedy. Considering that I made that post when I was half asleep..I think I surprised myself on that one, coww. Looking over that post, and your reply to it..I don't even know how I could have possibly known about him being the last. x.X;; Maybe it was a lucky fluke on my part?..Maybe I think differently when I'm groggy? Maybe I just wrongfully worded my post in my early morning stupor? On a random note though, while on the topic of Lucifer/Satan.. Exerpt from Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of the Angels ...To Aquinas, Satan, as "the first angelwho sinned" is not a searaph byt a cherub, the argument being that "cherubim is [sic] derived from knowledge, which is compatible with mortal sin; but seraphim is [sic] derived from the heat of charity, which is incompatible with mortal sin"(Summa 1, 7th art., reply obj. 1) I just thought that was interesting. sweatdrop I can see what you mean coww, about how much work would go into being able to invoke an angel by knowing its true name. Though, wouldn't an angel be impossible to trick into divulging something so important? ..I almost wish I could read the Book of Raziel, though, just for my own curiosity. It sounds interesting, though, I would not attempt any of the rituals. To summon angels into your presence to do your bidding/to force them to help you when they were probably doing something important somewhere else seems disrespectful..and selfish..and just genearlly not something that I'd want to do. Gyah..It must have been horrible with the amount of people who must have surely abused the knowledge they acquired from the Book of Raziel.
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:14 pm
By the Book of Raziel do you mean the Jewish Text, Sefer Raziel HaMalach(sp?)? Or is it a diffrent book?
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:44 pm
cowwwcowww By the Book of Raziel do you mean the Jewish Text, Sefer Raziel HaMalach(sp?)? Or is it a diffrent book? The Sefer Raziel book was the one mentionned in my copy of Gustav Davidson's a Dictionary of the Angels under the entry for Raziel and was also referred to as The Book of the Angel Raziel. According to the entry, that book is supposed to be full of "celestial and earthly knowledge" written down by the angel Raziel. However, if this book is the same "Christian spellbook" that has been referred to earlier in this thread, I'm not so sure because the Raziel entry in the Dictionary of the Angels book that I have also said that the 13th-century cabalist Abraham ben Samuel Abulafia used to write under that name. In any event, if they did turn out to be separate books, I'd like to read them both. *shrugs* I could probably learn a lot, and possibly a few interesting things while I'm at it, even though I'd probably never need to apply the knowledge I would have learned from reading the books.
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:12 am
Calling God a liar. Not a good idea. If you were dealing with a true son of God then they would not be calling him a liar. I am sorry if I seem to s**t all over the shadow of doubt you guys seem to be casting. I will tell you this right now, if the source is lying, then it is not God, the source would want you to believe that though. The Devil has disguised himself as light many times and decieved many. Plus, to say there is no God is to say you don't exist, because even if you do say your parents, who brought your parents here, and your parents parents, and keep going further and further and further back, and you will find that it had to start with something. Which in the book of revelations and in various places in the D and C God very clearly states that he is the beggining and the end. Now, there is more than one God. Yes, there is. But as for exact information a lot of that information is not to be trusted with humanity.
Don't bother asking me, because I don't know much in that area, and even if I did I can only share what information i'm allowed to share.
So, right here, right now, I am now grabbing a shovel to clear up all the bullshit getting spread around. Any questions?
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:20 am
Guitarhero356 Calling God a liar. Not a good idea. If you were dealing with a true son of God then they would not be calling him a liar. I am sorry if I seem to s**t all over the shadow of doubt you guys seem to be casting. I will tell you this right now, if the source is lying, then it is not God, the source would want you to believe that though. The Devil has disguised himself as light many times and decieved many. Plus, to say there is no God is to say you don't exist, because even if you do say your parents, who brought your parents here, and your parents parents, and keep going further and further and further back, and you will find that it had to start with something. Which in the book of revelations and in various places in the D and C God very clearly states that he is the beggining and the end. Now, there is more than one God. Yes, there is. But as for exact information a lot of that information is not to be trusted with humanity. Don't bother asking me, because I don't know much in that area, and even if I did I can only share what information i'm allowed to share. So, right here, right now, I am now grabbing a shovel to clear up all the bullshit getting spread around. Any questions? I didn't way anything about that. Purely objective information from me. I don't want to get into the argument about the gods... *backs away slowly*
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