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If someone would keep saying to a girl that she doesnt have any obligations and she has less segnificance in the jewish congregation, of course she would feel judaism is sexist. Judaism isn't sexist, but if you look at the way it's been portrayed lately in the guild... then that's how it looks. To prevent that I think we need to also show how the woman has lots of obligations herself and is very significant too! 3nodding

"changing times"? you have no idea how much i hate that phrase rolleyes it's just an excuse to change things to what one thinks is better. it has absolutely nothing to do with neccessity. it's petty, and thus disgusts me.

and frankly, does it really matter if it "comes across" as sexist? there have been times when judaism has "come across" as devil worship. poeple can, and often will, convince themselves of anything and everything. and more often than not, those that do are complete fools.

now, since when did we care about the opinions of complete fools? oh, that's right. forgot about democracy

...and the fact that they aren't allowed to do as such has absolutely nothing to do with oppression and/or sexism.

let me ask you, in reform, do men menstruate?

Since when? When they are crazy maniacs in charge of the entire country planning a genocide against you and your family and friends... I think then you would care about the fool's opinion, even if you don't care much for the idea of the opinion itself rolleyes .

That wasn't exactly a democracy, by the way... quite the opposite, really ^^".

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Also, I think (^) put it very nicely. Thanks 3nodding .

There are a few reasons that woman are not allowed in orthodox to lead the service:

(1) Since the woman is not obligated to pray herself, she can't lead the service for someone who IS obligated. The same goes for brahos, you can't say the braha for someone if your not obligated for brahos yourself (woman, child, etc).

(2) Think about it, men are, well, attracted to women, we all know it. Think about why there is a mehitza (seperation) in orthodox shuls to keep the men and women seperate. Imagine this, a young guy, single, in his 30's, sits down to pray, and suddenly this beautifull young lady, in her 30's, steps up to lead the service. Whoops, his whole prayer just went down the drain. His mind is now set upon other places in stead of praying to g-d. Unless the young man has extreemly strong faith, he will be able to put up with it EVERY time. For a large portion of men, the attraction to women goes beyond their threshold of control. Even if there are people that can control it, what about those who can't? The rabbi's forsaw this problem, and decided it would be better if women did not lead the service for this reason.

Sorry if I made anyone angry... I can understand this is important to all of you, but please don't feel like I'm accusing anyone of anything *cough* 3nodding . Just be good jews, guys heart .

Since when did I say I agreed with them?! I was just saying HOW it looks sexist. *sigh* And I know how you hate that phrase. I believe we've had THAT convo before.

And did I SAY it matters? I was just explaining it to you, since you couldn't see how someone can see Orthodox Judaism as sexist.

And just because someone has a different opinion or disagrees with you, doesn't make them a fool, and by some people's standards (though not mine) Orthodox Judaism is sexist.

And to nathan, about the distraction... I don't know about that. It might distract him for a MINUTE, but, honestly, if it's the same woman week after week, unless he gets a crush on her, it won't make much difference. I go to a lay-led service at my Conservative synagouge sometimes, and I've never been distracted for more than a minute by a cute guy, and even then, that's usually when someone's givin a speech. I'm female, not male, but I know I have male friends able to ignore cute females unless they're deliberatly flaunting their stuff.

And to Shoujo, that's one thing I think isn't fair. If you go to the Wailing Wall, there's a lot more room on the guy's side, and all sorts of stuff for them to like, lean prayer books on and stuff... the woman's side is about a quarter of the men's side, and... maybe a chair or two? THAT'S not fair. (Though it would be if they made the sides a bit more equal)

Well, of course, for someone in a male/female mixed society it doesnt effect you that much to have one lead the services. But actually, if you are in a society that males and females are seperate, it's quite different. I know my friends fairly well, and they are VERY distracted by girls. The reason for this is how most of the guys that even come to pray are the type that don't have much to do with girls, so when they see one, it effects them alot more than a boy that see's girls almost every minuite of his life. They aren't "used" to it, and it's basically one of the rare times they actually see a girl.

The rabbi's advise men to try and minimise contact with women, to preserve the sense to it. When a guy is surrounded by females, lives in a society that mixed is accepted and everyday, talks to females on a regular basis, eventually he becomes a bit numb to it in a sense... I hope you understand what I mean. We go to a yeshivah, there are no girls, the yeshivah does not approve of girlfriends/boyfriends, there are no get-togethers between males and females.

So when a guy from my yeshiva see's a girl, it effects him in a big way. The rabbi's can't suddenly stop keeping the seperation, especially during prayer. The result is disasterous. And again, I prefer reason number one, not reason number two. It's more strict to halaha and can't be bent by opinions on attraction.

I hope no-one feels offended, and if someone was, I'm truely sorry 3nodding heart .

not neccessarily...but that isn't what i said, is it?
there are exceptions to almost every rule. but you go with majority. the majority of guys find womens' singing distracting, on some level. also, what nathan said about someone without an obligation not being able to lead those with obligation.
count how many women come to the kotel in a week. count how many men come. it's over 20,000 men to a few thousand women. so why should there be equal space?