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I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying you're completely wrong in regards to this post that you made:



You may not be lying, but you are certainly contradicting yourself--I have a very hard time believing this information showed up on "at least four legit sites". If you are going to try so hard at the beginning to convince everyone that you are talking about facts instead of falsehood, at least follow up with that for the rest of the thread.



I'm pretty sure I've read the book of mormon more thoroughly than you. And I'm pretty sure I know the difference between a quote and a paraphrase. The quotes aren't the problem--you're the one who's interpreting the quotes in completely the wrong way. You aren't even interpreting the quotes in a way that makes sense. You're the one "denying Mormonism"-- I'm the one telling it as it is. You're saying that the LDS church teaches one thing, while it actually teaches something completely different. You can think whatever you want, but that won't change what the church actually teaches. So no, you're not lying--you're just blind to reality.



Of your three options, "Joseph Smith was a liar" is probably the least absurd. Of course he wasn't a liar, but he may have been mistaken about some things because, as I said before, he is only human and all humans make mistakes.

By the way, in case you haven't realised what kind of impression your giving of yourself, here it is:

"Umm, hi guys. I was just wondering if anyone could explain something to me about this religion. I don't want to cause a fight or anything, I'd just really like it if someone could answer my questions. I repeat, I do not want to ruffle anyone's feathers, I just want to hear someone else's opinion. What's this, someone actually did answer my question? Yeah well, you're wrong. The direct, honest answer you gave me to my question is nothing but BS. No amount of logic or reason is going to the change the fact that I am right and you are wrong--I don't even need to give a decent explanation about why I'm right, I just am because I said so. So there."

Do you see the problem? Honestly, it's the apparent change in personality halfway through that really gets to me. It looks exactly as if you're just putting on an act in your first post-- trying to sound as civil and open-minded as possible to try to reel in responses, even though you are neither civil nor open minded in any of your following posts. What you post makes you seem very hypocritical--if that wasn't the effect you were going for it would be wise of you to take a lesson from this. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, I just think that if you're concerned about looking like a sincere person you should be more careful not to write hypocritically.

Our friend Keito is being kind enough to share her faith with us even though this whole thread smacks of faith bullying. I think that's really impressive, because if I were her, I would have said "see ya" a while ago.

I quit a bunch of other Christian guilds in favor of this one because everyone seemed pretty welcoming and tolerant. I'm pretty upset to find that that is untrue.

As far as I see, she has been giving you honest answers the whole time. As guild captain, I cannot and WILL not tolerate any faith bullying or slander. Thank you Ophelia for bringing this thread to my attention. Kesuke, I suggest you take a step back and really read into what she is saying. At this point, it seems to me like you are determined to find something bad to say. Friendly debates are fine, however, this is becoming more of a personal vendetta than a friendly debate. If this doesnt stop, I will delete this thread and issue a warning.

Nobody owes you answers. If all you're looking for is for people to agree with you, you already have all the answers you need about the subject.

Thank you for your apology. Now let's leave it.

Not to fan the flames, but...kesuke uchiha, I'm sorry, you really were being a bully. I don't think that was your intention, but it is how you came off, and I just think it's important that you recognise that so as to try to avoid such behaviour in the future.

There are times when we need to sometimes admit that we are not an authority on a certain subject, even a subject that we may have very strong opinions about, and defer to someone who knows more factual information on the topic. In this case, a practising Mormon. You may not like her faith, but you at least have to admit that she's much more likely to know the teachings of her faith than you. And when someone is trying to civilly correct misinformation and answer questions, and is met with only hostility...that's not cool. I'm not trying to make you feel like a five-year-old getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar. You seem like a good-hearted person and I harbour no ill will towards you. I just want to be sure you understand where and how you may have erred a little to avoid any future drama.

And Miss Keito, a thousand thanks for your even-temperedness and willingness to share and educate. I hope you don't feel shunned or like you shouldn't be here. We're happy to have you, and I hope your future guild activity is better.

Journal of Discourses 10:110-111; “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” – Brigham Young, Salt Lake City, March 8, 1863



In 1852, while addressing the Utah Territorial Legislature, Young stated, "Any man having one drop of the seed of Cain ... in him cannot hold the Priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spoke it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ I know it is true and others know it."

Many LDS church documents and church leaders asserted that dark skin was an indication of sin or a curse. One belief held by some LDS members was that skin color of Native Americans would gradually change from dark to light as they repented of their sins.


"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race -- that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed." - Brigham Young, Quotation from Journal of Discourses


And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
— 2 Nephi 5:21

http://www.mormonhandbook.com/storage/media/ms-v22-n38-p602.png

Greeley: What is the position of your church with respect to slavery?

Young: We consider it a divine institution, and not be abolished until the curse pronounced on Ham shall have been removed from his descendents.

Greeley: Are any slaves now held in this [Utah] territory?

Young: There are.

Greeley: Do your territorial laws uphold slavery?

Young: Those laws are printed—you can read for yourself. If slaves are brought here by those who owned them in the states, we do not favor their escape from the service of those owners.
Brigham Young - Mormon prophet
Interview with Horace Greeley, Salt Lake City, Utah, July 13, 1859


every one of those is a direct quotation from various mormon written and published books and every last one of them proves you wrong.
by the words of your own founders
need more proof...click the link below and see the truth...
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/racism.html#scripture


they all prove you wrong so just pick one and deal with it. mormonism just started as a racist cult/con and now its just a REALLLLY big cult. one that lies and contradicts its own words all in order to adapt to the current culture.

I am sorry for being harsh.....but some lessons need to be learned through truth.

and just remember....the truth will set you free

Okay, I read it, and I honestly don't see what point you're trying t make with it. I'm not even trying to tell you that you're wrong--I know that won't accomplish anything because you'll stubbornly insist that you're right no matter what I say. I just wanted to provide correct information to you and whoever else might read this thread, regardless of whether you gave it any credit.

I have no wish to carry on a discussion with you. However much these topics interest me you have shown again and again that you don't care what I say, so I will not bother saying anything.