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 Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:28 pm
Esiris Anonemuss385 Masculinity takes the form of confidence for me. Someone who is really masculine doesn't walk around, showing off and basking in the adulation of others. He's the quiet guy, the one who does what he wants and doesn't worry about what anyone else thinks about him. I'm a confident person- so I have to be a man? Are Hillary Clinton, the Queen of England and Empress Dowager Cixi all men? To me- that seems really sexist. zZ-Zain-Zz My definition of a man is to be respectful and standing your ground. And defending ones you love. And love who he is. And yeah, he should do anything he wants. Women can be respectful and stand their ground and defend the people they love while loving themselves- again, I think these definitions of masculinity are really sexist and play into cis-hetero stereotypes. (I'm not even going to touch how people doing whatever they want can sometimes include abuse and other horrible things) Well I never said a woman can't do those things either. The thread said what makes a real MAN. I just followed of what it said.. If it said what makes a real woman/man, I would of wrote the same for both..
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:31 pm
zZ-Zain-Zz Well I never said a woman can't do those things either. The thread said what makes a real MAN. I just followed of what it said.. If it said what makes a real woman/man, I would of wrote the same for both.. But that would mean that you didn't define what makes a "real man"- because it's not the defining characteristic. cat_3nodding
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:05 pm
A man is a male, biological or other wise. That question is really the simpler one raised by this thread. As for what defines masculinity, that is harder. It's something in how you act, perhaps. Something that I'm attracted to when I have interest in men, something in myself that women who are attracted to me seek. I guess I have a less macho, 20th century definition of things. While by no means the ideological "new man", I'm no mere brute. But I suppose elements of my definition are found in my behaviour , appearance and habits. My tendency to forget to shave for a few days and leave the stubble, my pipe smoking, my love of spicy food and beer. But then I see another layer to that. Responsibility, honour, care and knowledge. A man who cares nothing for learning is less than a man in my eyes.
But I digress, this is an intangible concept.
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:25 pm
Skreemer A man is a male, biological or other wise. That question is really the simpler one raised by this thread. That's a little confusing for me- because it seems like it is combining gender and sex, but I don't think either of those things are that simple. Quote: As for what defines masculinity, that is harder. It's something in how you act, perhaps. Something that I'm attracted to when I have interest in men, something in myself that women who are attracted to me seek. I guess I have a less macho, 20th century definition of things. While by no means the ideological "new man", I'm no mere brute. But I suppose elements of my definition are found in my behaviour , appearance and habits. My tendency to forget to shave for a few days and leave the stubble, my pipe smoking, my love of spicy food and beer. But then I see another layer to that. Responsibility, honour, care and knowledge. A man who cares nothing for learning is less than a man in my eyes. But I digress, this is an intangible concept. I kind of think these all fall back on stereotypes and privilege that reflects sexism- if you were going to remove that as part of the definition, what would you be left with?
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:54 pm
Esiris Skreemer A man is a male, biological or other wise. That question is really the simpler one raised by this thread. That's a little confusing for me- because it seems like it is combining gender and sex, but I don't think either of those things are that simple. Quote: As for what defines masculinity, that is harder. It's something in how you act, perhaps. Something that I'm attracted to when I have interest in men, something in myself that women who are attracted to me seek. I guess I have a less macho, 20th century definition of things. While by no means the ideological "new man", I'm no mere brute. But I suppose elements of my definition are found in my behaviour , appearance and habits. My tendency to forget to shave for a few days and leave the stubble, my pipe smoking, my love of spicy food and beer. But then I see another layer to that. Responsibility, honour, care and knowledge. A man who cares nothing for learning is less than a man in my eyes. But I digress, this is an intangible concept. I kind of think these all fall back on stereotypes and privilege that reflects sexism- if you were going to remove that as part of the definition, what would you be left with? A hypothetical situation that we don't currently live with, if you're a realist. No offense intended, but it's great to talk about the possibilities if thing's had been different in this world, how we'd react without culture formed around us. Maybe we'll get to see that in a few generations. But for now, this is what we're living with. Besides, a lot of the time you find that some stereotypes have at least a modicum of truth to them. As for what we'd be left with, then it's little more than my personality.
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:46 pm
Hmm.. That's a tricky one. I don't think there is a clear cut definition of masculinity or "being a man" because I believe it's all relative.
I wouldn't know how define it.
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:08 pm
Esiris zZ-Zain-Zz Well I never said a woman can't do those things either. The thread said what makes a real MAN. I just followed of what it said.. If it said what makes a real woman/man, I would of wrote the same for both.. But that would mean that you didn't define what makes a "real man"- because it's not the defining characteristic. cat_3nodding Okay whatever. All I'm saying that what I said wasn't sexist.
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:55 pm
Skreemer A hypothetical situation that we don't currently live with, if you're a realist. No offense intended, but it's great to talk about the possibilities if thing's had been different in this world, how we'd react without culture formed around us. Maybe we'll get to see that in a few generations. But for now, this is what we're living with. Besides, a lot of the time you find that some stereotypes have at least a modicum of truth to them. As for what we'd be left with, then it's little more than my personality. I think the only way we see change is if we make it, instead of supporting cycles and I think it's a mistake to say "this is what we're living with", because this isn't about how the dictionary defines masculinity, it's about how we define it and if we define it in a way that supports sexism, or cis privilege, or male privilege or hetero privilege or even white privilege- we can educate ourselves and change how we view it. And why would your personality be what defines masculinity? zZ-Zain-Zz Okay whatever. All I'm saying that what I said wasn't sexist. But that goes back to what was said earlier in the thread- that when you point out that there is privilege and explain why, and then someone goes to insist that the privilege is acceptable and that nothing needs to change it actually becomes the thing it says it isn't: someone demonstrating that something treats the races differently being met with "but this isn't racist!" doesn't undo the racism in the same way that explaining why there is an imbalance between the sexes in how someone treats them demonstrates how sexist that imbalance is.
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:58 pm
Esiris Skreemer A hypothetical situation that we don't currently live with, if you're a realist. No offense intended, but it's great to talk about the possibilities if thing's had been different in this world, how we'd react without culture formed around us. Maybe we'll get to see that in a few generations. But for now, this is what we're living with. Besides, a lot of the time you find that some stereotypes have at least a modicum of truth to them. As for what we'd be left with, then it's little more than my personality. I think the only way we see change is if we make it, instead of supporting cycles and I think it's a mistake to say "this is what we're living with", because this isn't about how the dictionary defines masculinity, it's about how we define it and if we define it in a way that supports sexism, or cis privilege, or male privilege or hetero privilege or even white privilege- we can educate ourselves and change how we view it. And why would your personality be what defines masculinity? zZ-Zain-Zz Okay whatever. All I'm saying that what I said wasn't sexist. But that goes back to what was said earlier in the thread- that when you point out that there is privilege and explain why, and then someone goes to insist that the privilege is acceptable and that nothing needs to change it actually becomes the thing it says it isn't: someone demonstrating that something treats the races differently being met with "but this isn't racist!" doesn't undo the racism in the same way that explaining why there is an imbalance between the sexes in how someone treats them demonstrates how sexist that imbalance is. OKAY GEEZ. Even if it WAS sexist... I didn't realize. I'm not a sexist person.. gonk emotion_eyebrow dramallama 'w'
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:10 pm
zZ-Zain-Zz OKAY GEEZ. Even if it WAS sexist... I didn't realize. I'm not a sexist person.. gonk emotion_eyebrow dramallama 'w' I think it would be nice if we could have a conversation about this, instead of the all caps and the drama llama stuff- I'm talking to you like you're someone who is responsible and intelligent, and I would like the same treatment in return. I understand if you didn't realize at first- that's the tricky thing about privilege, it does a great job hiding itself by pretending it is normal to feel and think the way people do, even when those thoughts, feelings and the actions they create mean that some people are treated better than others. I had a boss, she was a little older than my mother and she told me about how when she first started working it was normal for guys to grope her, to pull her onto their lap and stuff- I think we all can see how unacceptable that is now, but in that day it was normal. Likewise, when we think of men as being people who protect others and confident, it can seem normal to think about them that way because most police and military people in the US are men, and the image of a Dad taking a baseball bat down stairs when Mom wakes up at the sound of someone breaking in is so common that it's easy to picture. But even pointing that out- sometimes we can picture women in uniform, or a mom protecting her children- but even those examples can show sexism, because a woman could just as easily protect her husband, her wife, her best friend or a stranger- a person may not be either a man or a woman and can just as easily do those things. Does that make sense?
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:20 pm
Esiris zZ-Zain-Zz OKAY GEEZ. Even if it WAS sexist... I didn't realize. I'm not a sexist person.. gonk emotion_eyebrow dramallama 'w' I think it would be nice if we could have a conversation about this, instead of the all caps and the drama llama stuff- I'm talking to you like you're someone who is responsible and intelligent, and I would like the same treatment in return. I understand if you didn't realize at first- that's the tricky thing about privilege, it does a great job hiding itself by pretending it is normal to feel and think the way people do, even when those thoughts, feelings and the actions they create mean that some people are treated better than others. I had a boss, she was a little older than my mother and she told me about how when she first started working it was normal for guys to grope her, to pull her onto their lap and stuff- I think we all can see how unacceptable that is now, but in that day it was normal. Likewise, when we think of men as being people who protect others and confident, it can seem normal to think about them that way because most police and military people in the US are men, and the image of a Dad taking a baseball bat down stairs when Mom wakes up at the sound of someone breaking in is so common that it's easy to picture. But even pointing that out- sometimes we can picture women in uniform, or a mom protecting her children- but even those examples can show sexism, because a woman could just as easily protect her husband, her wife, her best friend or a stranger- a person may not be either a man or a woman and can just as easily do those things. Does that make sense? Yeah.. I would of said the same thing though.. Like.. Everyone is equal, male or female.
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:25 pm
zZ-Zain-Zz Yeah.. I would of said the same thing though.. Like.. Everyone is equal, male or female. Ok- so if those things don't define masculinity, what does?
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:59 am
Alright, you want it as cold and simple as possible, masculinity is intrinsically tied to being a man., just as femininity is tied to being a woman. It's up to each person to choose the aspects they want.
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