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I'll admit, I didn't read all the conversation up to this point before I had posted my original comment. but while I understand there are theories on how this can help, all you have to do is look in your own neighborhoods to see how more labels are more likely to hurt than help.

Because of the labels we have, everyone is noticed by a label before they are recognized by name. Be it gays, blonds, bikers, or even less...well, politically correct terms. Labels tend to end up being reverted into sick jokes, or offensive comments. While I don't have any research to give on this, I know everyone here has heard the queer jokes. How something being 'gay' is a bad thing these days. The blond jokes are a dime a dozen. While this might be useful in the reason of trying to cause a more open minded viewpoint on how to define one another, since it's no question that mankind is just naturally drawn towards labeling one another...I just can't see this helping at all in the long run. Given the evidence in our own societies, I just feel confident that this would cause more problems than it will solve.

This isn't about theories- this is about scientific tests that have shown results. This is proof that labels, when not abused, are good things and the more people blame the labels the more people excuse the abusers.


Labels didn't do this though- recognizing Us and Them came as part of evolution- it is advantageous to recognize threats quickly. I learned about that in psychology class- there are patters and ways people access information without "reinventing the wheel", known as schema.

If you read through the thread, you can see people usng labels like "closed minded" and "ignorant" too- but they don't have any basis in fact which shows that people can attack one another without using a person's identifier.

That shows that it isn't the labels fault- it's the fault of humans being willing to lash out and be cruel. In the same way- you could say we should ban all sharp things, even though a kitchen knife makes cooking easier, it's bad because it can be used to stab people- and it's easy to forget that we use labels every day in good ways, like kitchen knives- when all you have to do is point out the handful of stabbings to prove knives should be banned.


But that isn't evidence- evidence is supposed to be a body of information that makes it so we can't ignore the facts. But this is throwing the baby out with the bath water- if you're writing in college they teach you in one of your early level classes that those kinds of generalizations are flawed because they don't rely on data and facts, but on misconceptions and biased perceptions. That's why I included these studies:

In McIrony and Craig's study they showed being aware of the use of labels is really important to the health of Multi-ethnic sexual minority youth (1).
This gets even more important when you look at "duel identity" groups like in the Hopkins study (2),

And it's useful for people outside of the identifiers too because they can provide greater understanding and treatment (3)!

The Neurolinguistics involved are a useful tool in psychology- you have to look at the scientific data (though I think the Hopkins study was 2 patients short of offical data points) and see that when someone's opinion is backed by scientific reresearch that has been peer reviewed.

I want to make one more point on making generalizations based on perceptions- if you stand in a field and look at the horizon, you may be tempted to view the sun as orbiting the earth- at points in our history people sure thought that, but we know that isn't the case. This is why really good research is important- it supports facts instead of opinions that can be based on bad information.

1: McInroy, L., & Craig, S. L. (2012). Articulating identities: Language and practice with multiethnic sexual minority youth. Counselling Psychology Quarterly, 25(2), 137-149. doi:10.1080/09515070.2012.674685
2: Hopkins, N. (2011). Dual Identities and Their Recognition: Minority Group Members' Perspectives. Political Psychology, 32(2), 251-270. doi:10.1111/j.1467-9221.2010.00804.x
3: Ecklund, K. (2012). Intersectionality of Identity in Children: A Case Study. Professional Psychology: Research & Practice, 43(3), 256-264. doi:10.1037/a0028654


I wanted to point out that I tracked down 3 scientific studies (posted right above this) that show that labels can be good things- they can help us when they're not being abused and those studies, one of them even focused on LGBT youth, shows how important labels can be to people being healthy.

The sources have been reviewed by other scientists, retested and found to be true by having the same results with different populations- and that's important because it shows it isn't a fluke. It would help if you read the whole post, just as a heads up- because you, Der Fluch and Tumble are all making the same kinds of mistakes. It happens- before college I did that kind of thing too.

Sorry about the quotes. cat_sweatdrop
I kind of think that opinions are really only good opinions if they're ethical- if they're not arbitrary and if they're supported with facts. Like, people can have the opinion that I should be stoned to death for being with Annette and Rosie and that kind of thing, but when I look at that opinion it isn't something that is supported by facts, so I discard that. Dr. Rachaels book on moral thinking (second edition I think- maybe it's a more recent one, if there is one) discussed that. If an opinion is arbitrary and doesn't have a logical basis- then it's too easy to use it as a weapon.

That's why those studies are so important- but then there's a difference between making a sweeping statement that labels are bad and making a statement like "I do not like to use labels myself"- so I won't hold any personal choices against you. cat_wink

If you'd be up for it- I'd be curious to explore if it is labels or their misuse that you have a problem with. cat_3nodding

Esiris, I get what your getting at, but while research serves plenty of use, you are treating it as though everyone is going to take an educated approach to the mentality. Though, on the concept of compareing it to kitchen knives...We could also compare it to guns. Even our government has taken the approach of removing the weapons rather than the problem. The problem is the human element, which I don't think you are taking into account. My point about labels being turned into insults isn't a matter of biased views, or that it's not reliable facts is incorrect. As this is everywhere. There is no avoiding this. This is as much fact as any book you've read.

I still stand by my view that adding labels will only cause more problems. we already have far more than we need in society.

Esiris, the science of the time also supported the world was flat.

I stand by my opinion because like it or not, adding more labels WILL result in just new and fresher ways to insult us. historically speaking, it is inevitable. It has happend every single time that a new term or label has been added to society, without fail. EVERY time. This isn't your science studies, or mental clases, this is the real world. Studies in controlled environments are useful, and tend to be fairly accurate...for their setting. But you only need look to history to see that while this may help on the short term, it will change nothing in the long term. Every major change, every revolution, has been given time by adding labels, perhaps, but never once has a new label actually helped in the long run. And in some cases, they actually made things WORSE. Adding these labels, at best, is a gamble. This is historically backed. Look to any revolution, any change, any group that has added labels, and each one will only further support my claim here. At most, it'll buy us time. and given this fight has been going on for longer than any other revolution's i've ever looked into, time isn't a factor here. We don't need more, as we are a long way from running out of time, and the progress we are making is looking to finally end the biggest of problems before we'd run out by far.

While Scientifically it can be supported that this method might actually help, history says something different. And unlike Science, history is what HAS happened. Science is what 'could' or 'should' happen. It's also proven the age old saying 'history tends to repeat itself'. both world wars. Hitlar and Stalin. The economic crash, which we are marching full tilt into another depression, and science and study has supported and proven that's happening. So if no other aspect has said that this outcome isn't going to happen, aside from a controlled study, then what's saying that history isn't' right here, over science?

and as for guns, I'm not saying the gun is at fault. the person is. but the licenses are like a lot of other things done by the government. and so far, I've yet to see reason to say it's only to help. Because every one I've seen so far of any reliability just shows the government just wants to make money off us. You have to PAY for those licenses. And where do you think that money is going? because it's not back into our towns. then again, I favor the blade and bow over guns. More reliable, and have served us for much longer. But that's going into my opinion on something much different. Point here is that your assuming that it's the minority that is going to abuse the power given in new terms they can turn on us. it is not liable to serve any long term good, or change anyone's mind. People who are against us now will just as much be against us once we hand them more ammunition to use against us.

I've my own views on ways to further improve our images. But seeing as the first step is get rid of gay pride parades, where we flaunt everything they hate about us, and all our stereotypes that they use as ammunition to hate us...and this method is not likely to be very popular...I'm still seeking a more reliable, and less controversial idea to try and help our image. but adding words isn't going to do much good. It never has, historically, and there is no reason to believe it will change now.

Well- that's because Pride is really important to the psychological strength of the LGBT community. cat_stare

This is the same kind of pressure Dr. King talked about in Letter from Birmingham Jail when the White moderate Christians tried to tell him that he shouldn't march.

Like King, "I feel that you are men of genuine good will and that your criticisms are sincerely set forth, I want to try to answer your statement in what I hope will be patient and reasonable terms....

You deplore the demonstrations taking place... But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes.

In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action."

We can't deny that the Pride movement has does these: there is injustice that the LGBT community faces, we have lobbied all levels of the government for equality, we find strength in our love for are partners and we march to bring awareness and express ourselves.

"You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.

My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood.
That is what Pride does.

"Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals."

(To add to Dr. King's statement regarding History, I would support his statement with solid facts: Privilege, Power, and Difference by Allan G. Johnson orginizes and discusses how and why privilege effects all of us- both the privileged and the underprivileged. I really recommend it. )

"We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

"We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God given rights. The nations of Asia and Africa are moving with jetlike speed toward gaining political independence, but we still creep at horse and buggy pace toward gaining a [basic civil rights]. Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say, "Wait."
Like Blacks- LGBT people are asked to live "constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and are plagued with inner fears and outer resentments;" by being denied our identity for the sake of a "negative peace".

"Segregation, to use the terminology of the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, substitutes an "I it" relationship for an "I thou" relationship and ends up relegating persons to the status of things.

"Let us consider a more concrete example of just and unjust laws. An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself. This is sameness made legal."

In this way- when Straights can show public displays of affection, or express their orientation or love and marry each other, while denying this to LGBT people, this would show that you're asking for an injustice- that through social norms, you would ask that "difference made legal" to be the done thing.



"I must make two honest confessions to you... First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action";

Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.

In your statement you assert that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But is this a logical assertion? Isn't this like condemning a robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical inquiries precipitated the act by the misguided populace in which they made him drink hemlock? Isn't this like condemning Jesus because his unique God consciousness and never ceasing devotion to God's will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion?"

In this same way- are the labels to be blamed for the violence that homophobes and bigots visit on the LGBT community?



"The [LGBT Community] has many pent up resentments and latent frustrations, and [they] must release them. So let him march; let him make prayer pilgrimages to the city hall; let him go on freedom rides -and try to understand why he must do so.

So I have not said to my people: "Get rid of your discontent." Rather, I have tried to say that this normal and healthy discontent can be channeled into the creative outlet of nonviolent direct action. And now this approach is being termed extremist. But though I was initially disappointed at being categorized as an extremist, as I continued to think about the matter I gradually gained a measure of satisfaction from the label. Was not Jesus an extremist for love: "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." Was not Amos an extremist for justice: "Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever flowing stream." ... So the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate or for love? Will we be extremists for the preservation of injustice or for the extension of justice? "

"Never before have I written so long a letter. I'm afraid it is much too long to take your precious time. I can assure you that it would have been much shorter if I had been writing from a comfortable desk, but what else can one do when he is alone in a narrow jail cell, other than write long letters, think long thoughts and pray long prayers?

If I have said anything in this letter that overstates the truth and indicates an unreasonable impatience, I beg you to forgive me. If I have said anything that understates the truth and indicates my having a patience that allows me to settle for anything less than brotherhood, I beg God to forgive me.
"Let us all hope that the dark clouds of [] prejudice will soon pass away and the deep fog of misunderstanding will be lifted from our fear drenched communities, and in some not too distant tomorrow the radiant stars of love and brotherhood will shine over our great nation with all their scintillating beauty."





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Taheri, Amir. "The “Arab Spring” Has Toppled Some Despots And Enriched The Arab Political Vocabulary. But What Are Its Limits And What Should Western Democracies Do To Help It Achieve Its Objectives?." American Foreign Policy Interests 33.6 (2011): 273-277. Academic Search Premier. Web. 11 July 2012.

Zilber, Jeremy, and David Niven. "Black" Versus "African American": Are Whites' Political Attitudes Influenced By The Choice Of Racial Labels?." Social Science Quarterly (University Of Texas Press) 76.3 (1995): 655-664. Academic Search Premier. Web. 11 July 2012.

This scale already exists. Its called the Kinsey Scale and it measures sexuality. You can read about ithere.