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 Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:14 am
Gjornia X ...I think God created "evil" in the sense of punishment for the unrighteous, which from their perspective is evil. I mean Adam and Eve were deeply hurt being not only thrown out of Eden but their lives lowered to--ugh--human existence. The Egyptians I'm certain thought God evil as he killed their cattle and smited their children en mass. Those caught up in the Great Flood (which I am aware we can debate the exact time and place of) I'm certain found God "evil". Or the numerous kingdoms God sent whole armies to destroy. The promises or privileges revoked to "chosen" persons who failed to do as expected. The entire book of Revelations! I don't find a lake of fire particularly inviting. So yeah, God created evil, but it's a necessary evil... Yes, this is an interpretation of evil, and a great example of perspective. Yet, according to historic tradition, this is God showing His righteousness and punishing impurity, not darkness and evil incarnate. At the risk of sounding faithless, many of these OT stories, to me, equate God to an angry child destroying his playthings because they don't do what he wants them to... or if we want to stay with the father analogy, he would be a drunken one, who gets so angry that he loses the desire to restrain himself when his kids don't do as he says, and he beats them to a bloody pulp... I really don't want everyone jumping to validate why God was right and why I might be wrong in stating the last paragraph. My personal belief is that God is righteous, and He is good and merciful. I believe the error comes through the telling of the stories... Gjornia X Adam and Eve existed in blissful ignorance for however many days, weeks, or years before the Fall. And God probably created them ignorant to protect them, and only later realized that He did more harm than good. In their ignorance they knew not pain or fear or hatred or wrath. Everything was given to them and they didn't have to do anything. They were in a since spoiled and took the gifts God gave them for granted... WOW! You imply God made a mistake! Yet, for those of us who frequent this thread who believe God doesn't make mistakes... What if the ignorance wasn't a mistake? What if it was just the natural course, that a new and intelligent life needs a time to be nurtured before it is sent out on its merry way? All of us were born ignorant, all of us needed every one of our needs and wants provided for us at one point. My children weren't given the opportunity to make their own decisions until I was ready to allow them to. I still deliberately keep them from doing things I don't feel they are ready to do. Other things that they are going to have to learn sooner or later, I allow them to decide when they feel ready to do them. Some of those things I place warnings with that are pretty much, "once you do this, there is no going back" ... Do you see where I am going with this? Maybe Adam and Eve weren't spoiled, maybe they were humanity as an infant. Maybe, humanity needed a time when God nursed it. Maybe, once that infant learned to tottle, God decided it was time for them to learn to what life was like outside its nursery, so he gave it a choice on when it was ready to step outside... I have a pretty good backing theory (IMO) on this perspective, which I will no doubt get into soon... Gjornia X Even though God created evil, it was only apparent after the Fall of the angels to whom he also gave a choice. And Satan having spent how many millenia exiled as the world was being shaped was clearly jealous of Adam and Eve being of a lesser for but held to greater glory. He knew death and he knew true evil was separation from God and being in that darkness. And God even goes as far to create the Other in Revelations with the Abyss and lake of fire, but only to delineate and underscore his majesty because so many people are trapped in sinful bodies unaware of the immortal danger they're in (at the time of those events). But the same goes for us now. Are you sure God GAVE a choice to angels?... The difference between angels and humans is Free Will. God allows us the choice to separate ourselves from Him, and allows us to change our mind to come back to Him. He did not give that choice to the angels. Those who made that choice and fell are not given the ability to reconcile. They are still bound to do what God allows them to. There is also the problem that the Fall is likely not to have happened until Adam and Eve left Eden (Or else there were 2 falls)... Which means that the tempter that resided in the serpent was there as a tool of God. Even our adversaries need God's permission to act, which leads back to the question, "Do angels have a choice?" Gjornia X ...But destroying sin is simply in God's nature--it and all who commit to it... I don't believe that God is a destroyer... I believe He is a creator... I want to reiterate my belief that there is error in the way many stories are recounted to us. I think that once God set things in motion, he allowed the course of nature to do what it would. I believe God is constant and unchanging, and so I don't believe God was so harsh and unforgiving in the OT, and suddenly loving and merciful in the NT. I believe that God gave warnings for the course nature was taking, but because people didn't believe, they were victims of what had been set into motion the day the Earth was created. He would allow everyone free will to trust Him or to not trust Him, and their ignorance and complacency earned them their fate. For God to destroy people in this current life for the choices they had made, would, for all intents and purposes, be stifling their free will. I don't believe God does that. I believe Hitler, Nero, the pharisees, and so many others were victims of the natural path that their choices lead them to. God does bless those who believe in Him, but the more we diverge from Him the more He withdraws His blessing from us... but that is not equivalent to Him destroying us.
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:47 am
I have been curious this week. So it would seem that agreeing with God's wrath and judgement is a good thing. But emulating it makes you nothing short of pure evil in a certain contrast.
For example.
God creates oh' said lake of fire for those who don't do as he says... and we call it just.
Now, if I make a pit of fire and throw my children in it when they disobey me this makes me an abhorrent human being.
I may just be taking the kaleidescope view on this one. But when the actions as done by one being is holy and good, while the same actions done by another being is evil and cruel... it's hard for me to actually understand which it is in clear contrast.
Now I understand the parental role concept, like how Gjornia pointed out some people may view God's actions as evil when they suffer for them. I'm not one to relate suffering to evil like that either. I suppose I agree because if my children misbehave, I may take something away from them that I've granted on the premise of them being good. And not reflecting on why I took it away, they may selfishly see it as me just being evil for taking something away. I figure if there is a God, it's his show anyway and he gets to call the shots. Who am I to complain?
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:03 am
Splendid Sailor Venus I have been curious this week. So it would seem that agreeing with God's wrath and judgement is a good thing. But emulating it makes you nothing short of pure evil in a certain contrast. For example. God creates oh' said lake of fire for those who don't do as he says... and we call it just. Now, if I make a pit of fire and throw my children in it when they disobey me this makes me an abhorrent human being. I may just be taking the kaleidescope view on this one. But when the actions as done by one being is holy and good, while the same actions done by another being is evil and cruel... it's hard for me to actually understand which it is in clear contrast. Now I understand the parental role concept, like how Gjornia pointed out some people may view God's actions as evil when they suffer for them. I'm not one to relate suffering to evil like that either. I suppose I agree because if my children misbehave, I may take something away from them that I've granted on the premise of them being good. And not reflecting on why I took it away, they may selfishly see it as me just being evil for taking something away. I figure if there is a God, it's his show anyway and he gets to call the shots. Who am I to complain? True... but as pointed out before, you don't destroy your kids because they misbehave. You take away something you blessed them with. Or you withhold something from them until they straighten up... This is where perspective of the Christian community should change IMO. So many Christians are so ready to point out 'the destructive' side of God, and they tell the stories as though the destruction that is rained down is God's punishment. In reality, I feel the point of the flood story is not that God sent a flood as punishment, but that God could not extend salvation to those who refused it. I don't think God wanted anyone to perish in the flood that was coming, that is why he gave humanity warning, and I believe that if anyone would have changed their mind at the last second before the doors closed, they would have been extended that salvation. He left it up to the people of the day to choose whether they heeded His warning or not.
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:28 am
Yeah, I don't think God is the type Who says, "DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO!!!"
I think that humanity as a child did not have a clear understanding of what was happening, and just jumped to the conclusion that our children seem to... "God is mean."
Now, I think everyone here is old enough to look back on our lives and recognize an instance where we exhibited a bit of immaturity, that at the time we thought was totally justified. Looking back, we realized that we were totally clueless....
Many of us can look back and see where our parents, guardians or teachers reprimanded us, and at the time we thought it was unjustified, or that they were just being mean, but now, using hind-sight, we see where things could have been worse if they had just let us be. We realize that the meanness wasn't mean at all, but that we could have been truly hurt if we were left to our own devices. I know many of us have friends that willfully disobeyed the restrictions, or disregarded punishments that they received to do what they wanted to anyway, and those people payed dearly for it, despite how seeming harsh they were dealt with in order to prevent that fate.
I think that is kinda where Christianity is supposed to be now. I think it is time that we start looking back into the past that is recorded for us, and try to understand what was really going on. Look past the immature colorings of what humanity did in it's younger days, and try to see the real intentions behind God withholding His blessings.
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:52 am
Eltanin Sadachbia In reality, I feel the point of the flood story is not that God sent a flood as punishment, but that God could not extend salvation to those who refused it. I don't think God wanted anyone to perish in the flood that was coming, that is why he gave humanity warning, and I believe that if anyone would have changed their mind at the last second before the doors closed, they would have been extended that salvation. He left it up to the people of the day to choose whether they heeded His warning or not. I agree with the previous part but I must point out here that this is a carry over myth added to Hebrew Identity mythos. I do not mean that the story is false per se but it is a story that has a meaning behind it. While there is an Adam that we descend from the mythos of Noah and the flood is supposed to teach that there all man has a common morality that is irregardless of one's nationality since it was Noah who is the father of not only the Hebrews but also the Gentiles. While YHVH has a special covenant with the Hebrews, there is a general, lesser covenant that he has with the Gentiles as well. This covenant, if you ignore the idolatry stuff, is pretty much the basic framework for western morality. This covenant is called the Noahide Laws jtlyk. As for what all the symbolism is for the rest of the story, I have yet to discern it and may not be able to do so due to the story being so foreign. There's actually two flood stories woven together to appear as one story so breaking it up will take some time. That is a decent take on salvation though in your interpretation there btw.
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:14 pm
rmcdra Eltanin Sadachbia In reality, I feel the point of the flood story is not that God sent a flood as punishment, but that God could not extend salvation to those who refused it. I don't think God wanted anyone to perish in the flood that was coming, that is why he gave humanity warning, and I believe that if anyone would have changed their mind at the last second before the doors closed, they would have been extended that salvation. He left it up to the people of the day to choose whether they heeded His warning or not. I agree with the previous part but I must point out here that this is a carry over myth added to Hebrew Identity mythos. I do not mean that the story is false per se but it is a story that has a meaning behind it. While there is an Adam that we descend from the mythos of Noah and the flood is supposed to teach that there all man has a common morality that is irregardless of one's nationality since it was Noah who is the father of not only the Hebrews but also the Gentiles. While YHVH has a special covenant with the Hebrews, there is a general, lesser covenant that he has with the Gentiles as well. This covenant, if you ignore the idolatry stuff, is pretty much the basic framework for western morality. This covenant is called the Noahide Laws jtlyk. As for what all the symbolism is for the rest of the story, I have yet to discern it and may not be able to do so due to the story being so foreign. There's actually two flood stories woven together to appear as one story so breaking it up will take some time. That is a decent take on salvation though in your interpretation there btw. I am somewhat acquainted with the Noahide laws, yet they were already in existence when Adam left the garden, and only one was added (the law of pursuing justice) when Noah exited the arc. Yet for the sake of simplicity, and for the point I want to make in this thread, I merely want to suggest looking at how people view God's part in the OT stories. I know several people here differentiate the God of the OT from the God of the NT, but many of us here do not. I see the sense of separating the OT from the NT, but from my point of view, I feel that the God of the OT can still be the God of the NT. Once again, it is a matter of perspective, and possibly (probably) personal revelation as well. It is also an excellent point of deliberation and consideration for this thread. I still believe that even as our children's retelling of the reasons, subject, and execution of a reprimand are colored by their innocence, ignorance, and selfishness, so too is the recounts we have of the beginnings of our religions. Even though our Book is sanctified by God, it was still written by man (for the most part), and would have the flavor of those writers' perspectives and beliefs. It is up to us to look back and try to use the knowledge accumulated by those before us to see through to the heart of what is written, and not take everything at face value.
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:34 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia I am somewhat acquainted with the Noahide laws, yet they were already in existence when Adam left the garden, and only one was added (the law of pursuing justice) when Noah exited the arc. Matter of interpretation I guess. This is when the Noahide laws were explicitly spelled out though in this part of the mythos. Quote: Yet for the sake of simplicity, and for the point I want to make in this thread, I merely want to suggest looking at how people view God's part in the OT stories. I know several people here differentiate the God of the OT from the God of the NT, but many of us here do not. I see the sense of separating the OT from the NT, but from my point of view, I feel that the God of the OT can still be the God of the NT. Once again, it is a matter of perspective, and possibly (probably) personal revelation as well. It is also an excellent point of deliberation and consideration for this thread. Oh I get that I'm sorry if I came off as derailing. I wasn't trying to do that nor was I trying to separate them. I was just trying to look at it from a mythic perspective that's all. Stories with meaning within a particular paradigm that's all. Quote: I still believe that even as our children's retelling of the reasons, subject, and execution of a reprimand are colored by their innocence, ignorance, and selfishness, so too is the recounts we have of the beginnings of our religions. Of course. Quote: Even though our Book is sanctified by God, it was still written by man (for the most part), and would have the flavor of those writers' perspectives and beliefs. It is up to us to look back and try to use the knowledge accumulated by those before us to see through to the heart of what is written, and not take everything at face value. Well yeah. I agree. I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest taking it at face value.
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:51 pm
rmcdra Eltanin Sadachbia I am somewhat acquainted with the Noahide laws, yet they were already in existence when Adam left the garden, and only one was added (the law of pursuing justice) when Noah exited the arc. Matter of interpretation I guess. This is when the Noahide laws were explicitly spelled out though in this part of the mythos. Quote: Yet for the sake of simplicity, and for the point I want to make in this thread, I merely want to suggest looking at how people view God's part in the OT stories. I know several people here differentiate the God of the OT from the God of the NT, but many of us here do not. I see the sense of separating the OT from the NT, but from my point of view, I feel that the God of the OT can still be the God of the NT. Once again, it is a matter of perspective, and possibly (probably) personal revelation as well. It is also an excellent point of deliberation and consideration for this thread. Oh I get that I'm sorry if I came off as derailing. I wasn't trying to do that nor was I trying to separate them. I was just trying to look at it from a mythic perspective that's all. Stories with meaning within a particular paradigm that's all. Quote: I still believe that even as our children's retelling of the reasons, subject, and execution of a reprimand are colored by their innocence, ignorance, and selfishness, so too is the recounts we have of the beginnings of our religions. Of course. Quote: Even though our Book is sanctified by God, it was still written by man (for the most part), and would have the flavor of those writers' perspectives and beliefs. It is up to us to look back and try to use the knowledge accumulated by those before us to see through to the heart of what is written, and not take everything at face value. Well yeah. I agree. I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest taking it at face value. No reason to be sorry, Rob. It is all part of discussion anyway, and I do think it is important that new considerations be added to any discussion. One of the challenges we have as Christians with differing interpretations is how to bring it all into perspective. I think that is an important challenge for our generation, and I think it is key in performing our duties as witnesses to those who have no hope. I think it is right that you elaborate your viewpoint on how you put the scriptures into perspective, and I don't think you are derailing any conversation as long as the conversation continues. Conversations evolve as this one is doing now. I apologize if I came across as reprimanding, looking at my last message, I did come across that way. I know you of all people would never take the Bible at face value. LOL I meant generally speaking, and I meant to challenge others to try and read the stories and consider the perspectives of those being written about, and try and look past the perspectives of those doing the writing. I know you have a particular gift of looking at the thrice buried meanings, but many people do still take every word of the Bible as literally literal, and they miss out on the deeper meanings and revelations hidden within for those who are prepared to search for them.
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:52 am
Eltanin Sadachbia No reason to be sorry, Rob. It is all part of discussion anyway, and I do think it is important that new considerations be added to any discussion. One of the challenges we have as Christians with differing interpretations is how to bring it all into perspective. I think that is an important challenge for our generation, and I think it is key in performing our duties as witnesses to those who have no hope. I think it is right that you elaborate your viewpoint on how you put the scriptures into perspective, and I don't think you are derailing any conversation as long as the conversation continues. Conversations evolve as this one is doing now. I apologize if I came across as reprimanding, looking at my last message, I did come across that way. I know you of all people would never take the Bible at face value. LOL I meant generally speaking, and I meant to challenge others to try and read the stories and consider the perspectives of those being written about, and try and look past the perspectives of those doing the writing. I know you have a particular gift of looking at the thrice buried meanings, but many people do still take every word of the Bible as literally literal, and they miss out on the deeper meanings and revelations hidden within for those who are prepared to search for them. Ah thank you. See I have these two conditions I often do when I type, foot-in-mouth and typing as if I were drunk/delirious. I just wanted to make sure I didn't say something that I didn't mean to say that's all. Anyway back on subject I guess since we are talking about evil we might want to discuss what makes something "good". Bringing up Plato's argument: Is a divine command good because God defines it as such or because it is good on it's own merit? Is there a possible third option not being considered?
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:17 am
I would have to say that good is good for many reasons. As a mandate from God it is good, as good within itself, it is good as well.
I would also consider the spirit in which a deed is performed...
Maybe also the degree of necessity that exists before a deed is performed...
Thinking hard about good, I would say necessity would be the key defining factor on what is good... If someone needs (not want) something, and they get it, it is good. If given to them in a spirit of love, it is also good for the giver. If someone is providing a need for someone by the command of God, it is thrice blessed...
My simple thought on it... I sheepishly admit that I haven't thought so hard on the nature of good, as I have evil... as it is harder to avoid evil action when I am aware I am trying to do so, and thus I felt I needed to understand it better so as not to slip into such a state.
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:45 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia Gjornia X ...I think God created "evil" in the sense of punishment for the unrighteous, which from their perspective is evil. I mean Adam and Eve were deeply hurt being not only thrown out of Eden but their lives lowered to--ugh--human existence. The Egyptians I'm certain thought God evil as he killed their cattle and smited their children en mass. Those caught up in the Great Flood (which I am aware we can debate the exact time and place of) I'm certain found God "evil". Or the numerous kingdoms God sent whole armies to destroy. The promises or privileges revoked to "chosen" persons who failed to do as expected. The entire book of Revelations! I don't find a lake of fire particularly inviting. So yeah, God created evil, but it's a necessary evil... Yes, this is an interpretation of evil, and a great example of perspective. Yet, according to historic tradition, this is God showing His righteousness and punishing impurity, not darkness and evil incarnate. At the risk of sounding faithless, many of these OT stories, to me, equate God to an angry child destroying his playthings because they don't do what he wants them to... or if we want to stay with the father analogy, he would be a drunken one, who gets so angry that he loses the desire to restrain himself when his kids don't do as he says, and he beats them to a bloody pulp... I really don't want everyone jumping to validate why God was right and why I might be wrong in stating the last paragraph. My personal belief is that God is righteous, and He is good and merciful. I believe the error comes through the telling of the stories... Gjornia X Adam and Eve existed in blissful ignorance for however many days, weeks, or years before the Fall. And God probably created them ignorant to protect them, and only later realized that He did more harm than good. In their ignorance they knew not pain or fear or hatred or wrath. Everything was given to them and they didn't have to do anything. They were in a since spoiled and took the gifts God gave them for granted... WOW! You imply God made a mistake! Yet, for those of us who frequent this thread who believe God doesn't make mistakes... What if the ignorance wasn't a mistake? What if it was just the natural course, that a new and intelligent life needs a time to be nurtured before it is sent out on its merry way? All of us were born ignorant, all of us needed every one of our needs and wants provided for us at one point. My children weren't given the opportunity to make their own decisions until I was ready to allow them to. I still deliberately keep them from doing things I don't feel they are ready to do. Other things that they are going to have to learn sooner or later, I allow them to decide when they feel ready to do them. Some of those things I place warnings with that are pretty much, "once you do this, there is no going back" ... Do you see where I am going with this? Maybe Adam and Eve weren't spoiled, maybe they were humanity as an infant. Maybe, humanity needed a time when God nursed it. Maybe, once that infant learned to tottle, God decided it was time for them to learn to what life was like outside its nursery, so he gave it a choice on when it was ready to step outside... I have a pretty good backing theory (IMO) on this perspective, which I will no doubt get into soon... Gjornia X Even though God created evil, it was only apparent after the Fall of the angels to whom he also gave a choice. And Satan having spent how many millenia exiled as the world was being shaped was clearly jealous of Adam and Eve being of a lesser for but held to greater glory. He knew death and he knew true evil was separation from God and being in that darkness. And God even goes as far to create the Other in Revelations with the Abyss and lake of fire, but only to delineate and underscore his majesty because so many people are trapped in sinful bodies unaware of the immortal danger they're in (at the time of those events). But the same goes for us now. Are you sure God GAVE a choice to angels?... The difference between angels and humans is Free Will. God allows us the choice to separate ourselves from Him, and allows us to change our mind to come back to Him. He did not give that choice to the angels. Those who made that choice and fell are not given the ability to reconcile. They are still bound to do what God allows them to. There is also the problem that the Fall is likely not to have happened until Adam and Eve left Eden (Or else there were 2 falls)... Which means that the tempter that resided in the serpent was there as a tool of God. Even our adversaries need God's permission to act, which leads back to the question, "Do angels have a choice?" Gjornia X ...But destroying sin is simply in God's nature--it and all who commit to it... I don't believe that God is a destroyer... I believe He is a creator... I want to reiterate my belief that there is error in the way many stories are recounted to us. I think that once God set things in motion, he allowed the course of nature to do what it would. I believe God is constant and unchanging, and so I don't believe God was so harsh and unforgiving in the OT, and suddenly loving and merciful in the NT. I believe that God gave warnings for the course nature was taking, but because people didn't believe, they were victims of what had been set into motion the day the Earth was created. He would allow everyone free will to trust Him or to not trust Him, and their ignorance and complacency earned them their fate. For God to destroy people in this current life for the choices they had made, would, for all intents and purposes, be stifling their free will. I don't believe God does that. I believe Hitler, Nero, the pharisees, and so many others were victims of the natural path that their choices lead them to. God does bless those who believe in Him, but the more we diverge from Him the more He withdraws His blessing from us... but that is not equivalent to Him destroying us. *hugs eltanin* your tone sounds a bit agitated so I thought I'd do that. The things I say are only out of love. sorry, if my words hurt anyone. To address a few things which I think you and others might have misunderstood is that I don't see "evil" as existing. I said "God created 'evil' in the sense of punishment for the unrighteou", not to say such a thing exists but their are God's blessings for the righteous, his scolding for his children, and his punishment for the unrighteous, all of which can be found throughout the Bible. When He exiled Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, he was acting in His nature of scolding his children--as a heavenly father he give us punishments too, but not to harm or degrade us, but because He expects great things and does not want to see us inhibiting ourselves. I by no means ever thought God made a mistake in the Book of Genesis concerning Adam and Eve. I think you misunderstood me. And I know you misuse the word "playthings" in your comment. I don't think you really think God would view us as that seeing as He would not deal with us for this long if He did. (Nor do I take you serious in your "drunken father" example). I do not however retract the end of my statement in thinking that Adam and Eve did not take for granted their gift of existing beside God. As Christians that's the very thing we strive for, the core of our belief is to one day be with Him for eternity. And what makes us want it more is the reality that not all of humanity will receive such a gift. I'm simply rationalizing, of course when I characterized Adam and Eve in my mind as spoiled because they were human, nonetheless, and can succumb to such a nature as Eve succumbed to temptation. Though then they were sinless they were not infallible. The angels did have a choice. If they did not then they could never fall from grace. Yet, they did. And even while men lived the angels fell still creating Nephilim and Goliath. Angels then are fallible, as the Bible tells that only God and Christ are perfect, therefore we can assume that even angels can commit sin. To think angels are perfect...is silly. And God is a destroyer of sin. The Bible is as much a love letter to His children about the enormity of His love, mercy, and grace as it is a stern warning to those that oppose Him and seek other things. When we sin, we die both metaphorically, and upon our physical death spiritually. He seeks to stop that at all means so that we don't bring upon us His punishment, but then if he didn't punish us when we sinned and only rewarded us it would go against his nature and sin would have power over God. But God does at some point destroy people. Christ himself said 'Do not fear those who can destory the body but fear God who can destroy the body and soul in hell'. One of God's roles is that of destroyer, one first of sin then of the unpentant sinner. So, God does not destroy people in this life on this earth. We destroy ourselves "for the wages of sin is death". If someone is tormented by demons on this earth it is because they either refused God or temporarily lost sight of Him, and finding Him only leads to a more fulfilling life on this earth and an everlastinf life on the next. I will admit that your words did hurt when you accused me of implying that God made a mistake. I honestly believe God seeks only to protect us from sin, and of course He knowing what sin is and knowing what we are, knew that unlike him we can not be above it. The knowledge of good and evil like someone earlier said binds us to personal responsibility of our actions because we now know what we are not supposed to do. Based on Scripture, God had no expectation that Satan would have been successful in tempting his children, well because they were His children and for however long they had lived in the Garden with Him they came to know Him. And here, a stranger appears, and they heed his word over the Lord's. I never meant to imply He made a mistake, indeed He couldn't if he wanted to. I do not believe the"natural" course is a life of sin because for God that is unnatural and as his creations it should be unnatural for us as well. Again, I apologize if I were unclear or if I sounded contradicting. I am human after all blaugh
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:52 pm
Also, 8 more people along with Noah are said to have survived. Though that is truly sad--I mean 120 years and only 8 people said "Ok, God, I'll give you a chance". What shambles humanity must have been in.
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:08 pm
heart
I love you Gjornia. blaugh
I really could use the hug. LOL
...but I wasn't meaning to come across as agitated, and in fact, many of the questions I ask are not stemming from mine own beliefs, but from questions I have been asked, or from questions I myself have asked in the past and resolved...
I have been feeling very under the weather this past week, and so it probably came across through my typing...
I do need to reword some of what I typed, and I will clarify what I believe shortly...
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:33 pm
It's often good to bring up matters that not everyone often encounters. Play devil's advocate and see how much people know about a matter, then help them understand more if you can. I'm half asleep at the moment, I'm going to stop before this turns into rambling.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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