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 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:18 pm
Push 2 Plat 9ZvP Not going to lie, I pretty much won this one on sheer, luck. My scouting could have been better, so that I would have been more prepared for the VR rush, as all I was expecting, was a gateway push, so I made the hydras to deal with the gateway units. Ended up they were fairly effective against the VR's and saved me just in time, along with a counter push as I found out he didn't have the gateway units I thought he was going to have, I knew he couldn't defend too easily against a counter push with my roaches without pulling his VRs. Overall making it a fairly even trade, I may have even come out ahead on that one, as I still had my nat. Since I was already making the hydras, and the distances were close by air, I decide to keep making them, and go for a big doom drop into his main, which had nothing defending it, and when he got there to defend, my lings hit his expo and killed his probes. I don't think this would have worked had spawn locations been anywhere else, but overall I think I'll be doing this same concept from now on in every close by air spawn game rather than getting mutas or air tech.
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:32 pm
Wish I could help, But alas I know nothing of the zerg and there drone harder ways.
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:44 pm
C4D So just to more or less summarize your points, my biggest weakness is lack of scouting against protoss? I need to have more view of what he is doing, watch for his expo, keep the XNT's and spread of creep so I can engage his armies in more favourable positions. I'll try and keep that in close mind. As for not scouting the main, I felt I didn't really need to, I saw the immortals and was pretty sure collosus were inevitable, and that's really the main reason I threw down the spire and halted anymore hydra production. But my lack of scouting did hurt me in the sense that I didn't know the size of his force and the actual composition of collosus/stalker ratio. Had I scouted that a bit earlier, I probably wouldn't have made as many mutas and made more corruptors instead. I usually try and get the fast lair, for the tech units I need to deal with a 4gate push ie; hydras that rape gateway units, but I'll try getting less gas, and relying more on queens and spine crawlers, and using my extra minerals to macro up more drones, and establish my natural faster. Is the overseer really necessary for sniping of observers, I mean I understand the free kills and trying to keep him in the dark, but is the investment really worth it? I will usually notice the observer, but just leave it be, figuring he can't really do much with it, aside from see my army, but a lot of good it will do him if I out macro him, which is normally what I rely on, when my macro is good. This game it wasn't my macro hatch was WAY late, and yeah we ended up pretty well just macroing at the same speed and so I didn't get the advantage I like to have. I'll give it a shot though, thanks for all the tips! surprised
Another huge thing which I didn't make as big of a deal as I maybe should have was the lack of pulling drones off of gas -- you pulled off 1 or something because I saw you had 2 on gas for a while, but you really have zero use for gas in the early game vs protoss -- you don't really need to make roaches, spines can cover your ramp. +3 drones mining minerals early on lets you nonstop pump drones and queens, gets your macro started SO hard (as well as creep spread), and gives you more than enough minerals to afford 3 spine crawlers -- which although are mega expensive, are a better investment than 3 roaches of 6 supply and 225/75/6 supply (+ the overlord that you'll have to make sooner than you want to, + the fact that you have low mineral income because you have to not pull drones from gas after 100 to afford roaches at all. Less mineral income = can't afford to pump drones when it's safe, such as vs a FE protoss on 1gate.
However, the biggest point I have to reiterate is that you were playing mostly blind the entire game... yes you "knew" he was going coll, but if that's the case why'd you go mutas? You were more or less only lucky that he didn't get more sentry/stalker for guardian+stalkers to rape your mutas. Any game that you play blindly, win or lose, you win or lose because of luck, and not because of skill. It's less obvious when you watch GSL or replays or any 1v1 where you see the entire map, but if you watch FPoV streams/etc you see that everything the pros do are based off of scouting, and every "cheese/trick" they do is also based off of scouting or the denial thereof. Nobody would ever lose if they knew 100% what the enemy was doing, and inversely, you can never reliably win if you don't know 100% what they're doing -- and this is basically why nobody can always win. Because you can never have 100% scouting, but the closer you are to 100, the more likely you are to win. The greatest example of this is of course IdrA smile
So related to this, yeah it's completely worth it to get an overseer to snipe the obs. It costs only 25 more gas than the obs itself, so it's really an "even" trade. If you snipe two, you profit. On top of this, the Protoss will feel 10000x more uncomfortable turtling/deciding to attack you if he DOESN'T see you have a "small" roach/hydra army chilling at your choke when he has 6coll and many stalkers. If he was blind he might've tried to take his 3rd first, and then you would've out econ'd him because you had your fourth already started (assuming things go as planned =p the APM it takes to scout 3rds/inject/upgrade/get gas/take fourths/saturate/creep spread is retarded compared to the APM or chronoing out collosus and the occasional forge upgrade). BUT I will say this: if you feel like you could die and you need a few more units before getting an overseer, that's fine. Just don't take too long or else the observer will pay for itself in scouting information.
The mutas honestly weren't a bad choice, I often go muta vs coll instead of corrupters because I ******** hate corrupters. If you see 6 though it might not be a bad idea... although when you see no sentries you should feel so ******** good, sentry+coll is what RAPES zerg and makes me cry. Coll alone can be absolutely decimated by speed roaches on creep (and even off of creep, but on creep it would be a slaughter).
But yeah, scouting is 100% the hardest thing to do in sc2. I'm not anywhere near good enough at it, it requires a shitton of *efficient* APM and timing to perform properly without forgetting injects. If you forget an inject in the first 7 minutes you're basically ******** vs people who are on top of their own macro.
Oh just read the reason you go lair, hydras for 4gate will never be there in time unless it's a sloppy 4gate I think... I remember this was the answer to 4gate back in the day, but try out just droning hard, scouting, and if you see stalkers throw down 3 spines, and if you see sentries throw down only 2 (and pull gas after meta boost -- you need meta to scout/control xn towers/deny probe scouts). Then put s**t back on gas a little after your natural finishes building, I think. But yeah, 3 spines >>> 4gate. Spine DPS is ******** off the chain, especially vs armored. Ideally you make a bunch of lings to dps/tank while your spines do the sick dps.
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:50 pm
Quick overview of Protoss "reads" (information you deduce based off of limited scouting information, not always is right). It's very important that you try to scout if he takes his second gas early on, if he does it's very telling.
If you scout:
- Even 1 stalker + zealot(s) off of 1gas, 95%+ chance of 4gate rush. Build 3 spines, 20~lings, and you'll be so ahead after you crush it. After you DO crush it, drone hard.
- 2-3 sentries + zealot(s) off of 2gas, High % chance of 3gate + expo, medium % chance (higher at lower leagues I imagine) of a sentry-based 4gate
- More than 2 stalkers off of 2 gas, high % chance of blink rush
- 1-2 sentries off of 2gas, no expo appearing to be thrown down, high % chance of DT rush, low % chance of air. If you go the 3-queen route, air will be easily stopped because either way you throw down an evo chamber + 1 spore.
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there are other things, but those are the most common. I highly suggest you review the replays where a rush threw you off, and see if the scouting information available matches what I said above. sentry count is basically how you know what protoss is most likely doing. the most ambiguous/hard to scout is a feigned expansion with sentries, where he builds a nexus but cancels it right as he moves out and warps in a shitton of stuff. that's nearly impossible to scout so hopefully you don't encounter it too often. i would ignore it as a possibility until it happens to you, tbh.
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