|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:18 pm
Major Logica Oh yeah, i KNOW it's ironic, but is a necessary Irony. You see, Christian hate groups are not "christian"... Christ taught tolerance. Therefore, only the sects of Christianity who don't go out of their way to condemn anyone who isn't with them can be legally allowed to practice. Legally, religion is protected as long as it isn't hurting people... and well, those groups I named are hurting people. They offend, they persecute, and kill, and they hate. They do not deserve legal status and tax exemption. Quite frankly, the Bible (if read and interpreted literally) encourages and condones alot of practices that are considered barbaric and downright wrong in this day and age. The God of the Bible is seen time and time again as a God of hatred and a God of judgement. Therefore, I personally believe that even if this God were indeed real, it would be necessary to abolish him unless he reforms. There are few individual Christian churches I am aware of that are non-judgmental and do not condone hatred, exclusion, separatism, nor racism/supremacy. These churches I do not have a problem with. You're saying people should be persecuted on the basis of their beliefs. Actions I can understand, but beliefs? Not to mention, your understanding of these groups appears to be flawed... in no way can the RCC be compared to the KKK in this way. While there are definite areas in which this church fails - noteably protecting the church to the detriment of those within its care - it is, as I said, hardly going around lynching people. People have the option to leave the church. Yes, beliefs can hurt... I just don't see why more intolerance will help. I don't see why persecution of millions of people will help you in your aim for a better world. Groups that aren't following Christ's example properly are still Christian. They're just very bad at being Christian. Better to stress Christ's words and set an example of love than to spread yet more hate.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:21 pm
Sanguina Cruenta rmcdra Also despite the rights gay issues and woman's priesthood thing, Roman Catholicism is far from being extremist and fundamentalist. Plus, the catechism clearly states that gay people should be treated with love and so on. It's not like they're going around lynching them. Admittedly there's a lot of room for improvement.... this pope is fairly.... conservative. The priesthood thing I really can't comment on... all I can really say is that given some of the gnostic texts, it doesn't really make sense that women can't be priests. But it's not my religion, and I can't comment on their requirements for priesthood. (Except to say that they should make sure they aren't child abusers or something.) It has to do with the tradition they accept and ritual symbolism more than anything. If you put a woman in the role of priest it breaks the symbolism since the priests are supposed to represent Christ. I think these little nuances can be reworked and tweaked personally but as A Sopo described, the Catholic Church doesn't like putting people's salvation at risk since they know/believe that these rituals as the way they are work as they are supposed to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:26 pm
Sanguina Cruenta Major Logica Oh yeah, i KNOW it's ironic, but is a necessary Irony. You see, Christian hate groups are not "christian"... Christ taught tolerance. Therefore, only the sects of Christianity who don't go out of their way to condemn anyone who isn't with them can be legally allowed to practice. Legally, religion is protected as long as it isn't hurting people... and well, those groups I named are hurting people. They offend, they persecute, and kill, and they hate. They do not deserve legal status and tax exemption. Quite frankly, the Bible (if read and interpreted literally) encourages and condones alot of practices that are considered barbaric and downright wrong in this day and age. The God of the Bible is seen time and time again as a God of hatred and a God of judgement. Therefore, I personally believe that even if this God were indeed real, it would be necessary to abolish him unless he reforms. There are few individual Christian churches I am aware of that are non-judgmental and do not condone hatred, exclusion, separatism, nor racism/supremacy. These churches I do not have a problem with. You're saying people should be persecuted on the basis of their beliefs. Actions I can understand, but beliefs? Not to mention, your understanding of these groups appears to be flawed... in no way can the RCC be compared to the KKK in this way. While there are definite areas in which this church fails - noteably protecting the church to the detriment of those within its care - it is, as I said, hardly going around lynching people. People have the option to leave the church. Yes, beliefs can hurt... I just don't see why more intolerance will help. I don't see why persecution of millions of people will help you in your aim for a better world. Groups that aren't following Christ's example properly are still Christian. They're just very bad at being Christian. Better to stress Christ's words and set an example of love than to spread yet more hate. Belief is the basis of action, especially in the religious arena. Cut out that which motivates you and you do no such acts. Yes, it's blunt, yes it's "intolerant", but sometimes you have to be stern and firm fro the sake of the greater good. I'm not going to try and make you agree with me, but I do stand firmly on this matter. Roman Catholics persecute Abortionists, biological-scientists, Transhumanists, and LGBTs. They are arguably as bad as the KKK in that sense. Even though they don't literally kill these people (most of the time), they do worse things, like lobby bills through governments to make it so that they can't have their way and the Church's authority and supremacy remains intact. The Church and the KKK are very similar, but go about their evildoing in different ways. Either way, both are wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:48 pm
Major Logica Belief is the basis of action, especially in the religious arena. Cut out that which motivates you and you do no such acts. Yes, it's blunt, yes it's "intolerant", but sometimes you have to be stern and firm fro the sake of the greater good. I'm not going to try and make you agree with me, but I do stand firmly on this matter. And what greater good is that? This sounds very similar to arguments made about how to "civilize the savages" Quote: Roman Catholics persecute Abortionists, biological-scientists, Transhumanists, and LGBTs. They are arguably as bad as the KKK in that sense. Even though they don't literally kill these people (most of the time), they do worse things, like lobby bills through governments to make it so that they can't have their way and the Church's authority and supremacy remains intact. The Church and the KKK are very similar, but go about their evildoing in different ways. Either way, both are wrong. I don't think you know what persecution is? And why cannot religious groups lobby? If corporations and special interest groups can lobby, why cannot religious groups? Last I checked Roman Catholicism is a minority in the United States. Yep. Catholics make up about 25% of the US and 1/3 of the Christians in the US. Explain to me exactly how they are persecuting these groups and then we'll talk.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:30 pm
rmcdra Major Logica Belief is the basis of action, especially in the religious arena. Cut out that which motivates you and you do no such acts. Yes, it's blunt, yes it's "intolerant", but sometimes you have to be stern and firm fro the sake of the greater good. I'm not going to try and make you agree with me, but I do stand firmly on this matter. And what greater good is that? This sounds very similar to arguments made about how to "civilize the savages" Quote: Roman Catholics persecute Abortionists, biological-scientists, Transhumanists, and LGBTs. They are arguably as bad as the KKK in that sense. Even though they don't literally kill these people (most of the time), they do worse things, like lobby bills through governments to make it so that they can't have their way and the Church's authority and supremacy remains intact. The Church and the KKK are very similar, but go about their evildoing in different ways. Either way, both are wrong. I don't think you know what persecution is? And why cannot religious groups lobby? If corporations and special interest groups can lobby, why cannot religious groups? Last I checked Roman Catholicism is a minority in the United States. Yep. Catholics make up about 25% of the US and 1/3 of the Christians in the US. Explain to me exactly how they are persecuting these groups and then we'll talk. It pretty much IS civilising the savages, as it were.The Greater good is the enlightened evolution of mankind. Aggressive religious groups seek to turn back the clock on Human civilisation and push their suppressive morality on the majority who finds them to be a counterproductive obstacle. And yes, I was expecting someone to decry my methods as suppressive akin to the very groups I seek to destroy. "Know, of course, your enemy. But in knowing him, do not forget to know yourself. The commander who embraces this totality of battle shall win, even with the inferior force." - Sun Tzu "the Art of War". Lobbying isn't good to do at all! No one should get special treatment that individual, every day people do not receive. That is counterproductive to and defeats the purpose of democracy. And Religious groups especially should not lobby because of the things they lobby for or against! Like I said, Roman Catholicism is a prime example of this in there attempts against geneticists making genetic therapies and medicines, Transhumanists having access to and improving technologies that will help them enhance themselves, The LGBT equality movement due to Anti-LGBT passages form the Bible, and taking away the reproductive rights of women (including but not limited to abortion). It's not fair that the people as a whole do not get a fair vote on these thing because the Church keeps swaying votes and the legislature at large with large sums of money and "the fear of God". IS this right? Is this fair? Hell no! Should oil companies get special treatment and economic hegemony because they have control of an important market? NO! Should they have the right to make it so the emerging hydrogen fuel industry can't get their proverbial feet int eh doorway? HELL NO! Now you tell me why lobbying is good for anyone? Those with the best interests don't have the power or the money to lobby, sadly, so those who can lobby are those whoa re corrupted by lust for money, power, and authority and sure as hell don't care who they screw int he process.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:49 pm
Major Logica It pretty much IS civilising the savages, as it were.The Greater good is the enlightened evolution of mankind. Aggressive religious groups seek to turn back the clock on Human civilisation and push their suppressive morality on the majority who finds them to be a counterproductive obstacle. Do explain how are they turning the clock back? How is this minority controlling the majority, especially when the US in general distrustful of groups such as Catholicism. Quote: And yes, I was expecting someone to decry my methods as suppressive akin to the very groups I seek to destroy. "Know, of course, your enemy. But in knowing him, do not forget to know yourself. The commander who embraces this totality of battle shall win, even with the inferior force." - Sun Tzu "the Art of War". No. I'm saying your methods are as bigoted as the European imperialists who sought to justify their cruelty and cultural genocide of various natives as "enlightenment" and "education" Quote: Lobbying isn't good to do at all! No one should get special treatment that individual, every day people do not receive. That is counterproductive to and defeats the purpose of democracy. And Religious groups especially should not lobby because of the things they lobby for or against! Like I said, Roman Catholicism is a prime example of this in there attempts against geneticists making genetic therapies and medicines, Transhumanists having access to and improving technologies that will help them enhance themselves, The LGBT equality movement due to Anti-LGBT passages form the Bible, and taking away the reproductive rights of women (including but not limited to abortion). It's not fair that the people as a whole do not get a fair vote on these thing because the Church keeps swaying votes and the legislature at large with large sums of money and "the fear of God". IS this right? Is this fair? Hell no! This sounds like conspiracy theory non-sense. Yes influencing through money and fear are unethical and immoral never said that these things weren't. I hope you can provide sources to show that ALL special interest groups and Lobbyists do this. You must be using a different definition of special interest and Lobbyist than I am because I'm thinking of various civil rights groups in this list as well. Quote: Should oil companies get special treatment and economic hegemony because they have control of an important market? NO! Should they have the right to make it so the emerging hydrogen fuel industry can't get their proverbial feet int eh doorway? HELL NO! Now you tell me why lobbying is good for anyone? Those with the best interests don't have the power or the money to lobby, sadly, so those who can lobby are those whoa re corrupted by lust for money, power, and authority and sure as hell don't care who they screw int he process. What you are describing sounds like extortion and bribery. This doesn't sound like lobbying. wiki Lobbying (also Lobby) is a form of advocacy with the intention of influencing decisions made by legislators and officials in the government by individuals, other legislators, constituents, or advocacy groups. A lobbyist is a person who tries to influence legislation on behalf of a special interest or a member of a lobby. Governments often define and regulate organized group lobbying that has become influential. So this means that minorities such as GLBT should not be lobbying then? Sounds counter-productive and a step backwards to me rolleyes
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:40 pm
rmcdra Major Logica It pretty much IS civilising the savages, as it were.The Greater good is the enlightened evolution of mankind. Aggressive religious groups seek to turn back the clock on Human civilisation and push their suppressive morality on the majority who finds them to be a counterproductive obstacle. Do explain how are they turning the clock back? How is this minority controlling the majority, especially when the US in general distrustful of groups such as Catholicism. Quote: And yes, I was expecting someone to decry my methods as suppressive akin to the very groups I seek to destroy. "Know, of course, your enemy. But in knowing him, do not forget to know yourself. The commander who embraces this totality of battle shall win, even with the inferior force." - Sun Tzu "the Art of War". No. I'm saying your methods are as bigoted as the European imperialists who sought to justify their cruelty and cultural genocide of various natives as "enlightenment" and "education" Quote: Lobbying isn't good to do at all! No one should get special treatment that individual, every day people do not receive. That is counterproductive to and defeats the purpose of democracy. And Religious groups especially should not lobby because of the things they lobby for or against! Like I said, Roman Catholicism is a prime example of this in there attempts against geneticists making genetic therapies and medicines, Transhumanists having access to and improving technologies that will help them enhance themselves, The LGBT equality movement due to Anti-LGBT passages form the Bible, and taking away the reproductive rights of women (including but not limited to abortion). It's not fair that the people as a whole do not get a fair vote on these thing because the Church keeps swaying votes and the legislature at large with large sums of money and "the fear of God". IS this right? Is this fair? Hell no! This sounds like conspiracy theory non-sense. Yes influencing through money and fear are unethical and immoral never said that these things weren't. I hope you can provide sources to show that ALL special interest groups and Lobbyists do this. You must be using a different definition of special interest and Lobbyist than I am because I'm thinking of various civil rights groups in this list as well. Quote: Should oil companies get special treatment and economic hegemony because they have control of an important market? NO! Should they have the right to make it so the emerging hydrogen fuel industry can't get their proverbial feet int eh doorway? HELL NO! Now you tell me why lobbying is good for anyone? Those with the best interests don't have the power or the money to lobby, sadly, so those who can lobby are those whoa re corrupted by lust for money, power, and authority and sure as hell don't care who they screw int he process. What you are describing sounds like extortion and bribery. This doesn't sound like lobbying. wiki Lobbying (also Lobby) is a form of advocacy with the intention of influencing decisions made by legislators and officials in the government by individuals, other legislators, constituents, or advocacy groups. A lobbyist is a person who tries to influence legislation on behalf of a special interest or a member of a lobby. Governments often define and regulate organized group lobbying that has become influential. So this means that minorities such as GLBT should not be lobbying then? Sounds counter-productive and a step backwards to me rolleyes Lobbying with the kind of money the Church is known to possess makes it quite easy, but it isn't just Catholics. It's most of Conservative Christianity. Catholics are just well known and among the most visible groups to get their fingers in government to make their will into law. God doesn't belong in Government. It's that simple. The bible is an archaic book of myths inspired by a few actual events, much like The Illiad. Now, if The LGBT community's main suppressors become silenced in Government, we might not need to lobby for equality. We just hold our pride events like normal in spite of the critics being ousted form power and we will have our way due to inability of the churches to say anything about it. The non-religious opposition to our equality campaign is negligible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:32 pm
Major Logica Lobbying with the kind of money the Church is known to possess makes it quite easy, but it isn't just Catholics. It's most of Conservative Christianity. Catholics are just well known and among the most visible groups to get their fingers in government to make their will into law. God doesn't belong in Government. It's that simple. The bible is an archaic book of myths inspired by a few actual events, much like The Illiad. I agree with separation of Church and State but this sounds like conspiracy theory bullshit. Unless you want to provide proof that such groups actually do get their agenda's passed through by bribery I'll concede. Quote: Now, if The LGBT community's main suppressors become silenced in Government, we might not need to lobby for equality. We just hold our pride events like normal in spite of the critics being ousted form power and we will have our way due to inability of the churches to say anything about it. The non-religious opposition to our equality campaign is negligible. Considering that cultural biases would still exist regardless of religion being removed I seriously doubt that. What you are proposing is counter to the principles of democracy as you said to promote. If minorities are not allowed to speak, then it become the tyranny of the majority or rule by mob. Even if the minority is wrong, such groups should be allowed to speak to test if their claims actually hold merit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:35 pm
I think the KKK qualifies as Christians in the same way Islamic extremists qualify as Muslims.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:35 pm
Yes, there are extreemist groups in Christianity the IRA ( Irish Republican Army) is one too. They want to free Northern Ireland from the British, but about the KKK, they are Christian, but they are a certain denomination that believe in white supremicy or something like that, but I know that most of them are not Catholic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:52 pm
The Anglican Church allows homosexuals to become part of their community, they also allow their vicars to get married. I think it is a very liberal Christian community far distant than those extremists, Anglican Church is very modern, its is the opposite of the ( Westboro Baptists ) which were cruel enough to protest at an 8yr old girls funeral.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:47 pm
God watches us kill each other and do wrongs to one another because he is testing us. God knows whether we are going to live a life of good or evil, but he wants to give us a chance to prove our goodness, because humanity was made good. But I do see why ask your question, because if he knows that we are going to live a horrible, evil life why test us if it's going to happen???
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:02 am
MORbidInvader Usually when I bring this up, most Christians in the room want to slap me. I've gotten marked down for saying it in an essay. Th point is, it's a touchy subject, but I want to hear peoples opinions on it. In every religion there are extremist groups. Christianity is no exception. They have the KKK. The KKK has it's base in Christianity. Usually at this point I would hear a chorus of, "They aren't a Christian group, they don't follow the bible." That is not entirely true. They justify their actions by manipulating the bible, they believe they are following it. Go to the second post for a list of biblical reasons why they think what they do is justified., which I found on their website. If people still dought that it is a christin organization, consider some of the requirements for joining. Quote: 2. You must be able to profess faith in Jesus Christ as personal Savior Quote: 6. Under NO circumstances will we accept for associateship: homosexuals, atheists, pay attention to the "atheists" part. Why would that matter unless we were talking about a christian organization. Here is another outake from that same page, and this should be all it takes to prove that the kkk is in fact a christian organization. Quote: Here too much dis-information has been propagated. YES, The Ku Klux Klan IS a Christian organization. NO, you do not have to belong a certain sect or denomination to be a Klansman/Klanswomen. Our organization includes nearly all Protestant denominations that accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. You do NOT have to be a Klansman to be a Christian, but you MUST be a Christian to be a Klansman. Please understand that I believe the KKK is a terrible organization. What they have done is wrong, and I am fully against what they stand for. I happen to be VERY religious however.....lol I knew all of this already...many Mormons will try and say that they are indeed christian. and after weeks of study....the only differences I found between the teachings of joseph smith and the KKK is that in momronism you are not supposed to act violently against a black man AND if he or she is truly righteous a black man or woman can turn white. and yes...I can back up that statement with passages in the book of mormon. the point is there will always be cults or extremists that branch off of every religion. there is not stopping that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
