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 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:59 pm
Xynch IndieUndies00 Xynch Taeryyn Xynch I think of it more like a weight thing, your either evil or good, unlike a weight, theres no perfect balance. You can do all bad things, follow all of those with one good act, that does not make you good. From a biblical standpont (great, here comes the religious crap) any action could, relatively easily, be seen as good or evil. Gray is just our way of doing somthing bad and saying, by technicality, its good. So if someone did nothing but good things their entire life, and then did something somewhat bad at the end, they're no longer a good person? From one culture to another, things that are almost universally seen as "bad" are those things that negatively affect yourself or someone else. Stealing, for example. Pretty much everyone can agree that it's wrong to steal. However, what if you and your family are starving, and you steal food from someone rich to give to your starving family? Are you automatically a bad person? I don't think many people would think so. Very few things in life are black and white. Quote: Gray is just our way of doing somthing bad and saying, by technicality, its good. No, "gray" means that although an action may be good or bad, it must be looked at in the proper context. You can't just look at an action and deem it good or bad without considering the circumstances as well as the consequences. i dont know how to do that nifty quote trick you did so im going to have to answer this all at once. As for your first statement, you got it wrong. I believe that if someone did nothing but good deeds their whole life, and did one wrong thing, then, depending on the severity of that wrong deed, they are still good. Now if you donate 1 dollar a week to some charity your whole life, but then kill 1000 people, that evil deed seriously out weighs the good. Of course, many people would not think stealing to feed THEIR familys would be bad, but ask them about being stolen from. And i still see stealing as wrong, there are other ways to obtain food. and theft is theft, murder is murder. balck is black, white is white, there is no neutral. And i believe a great many things are black and white. As long as you look at them correctly and dont let naive, idealistic, notions such as neutrality cloud your vision.
Grey is not an excuse to do bad things and get away with it. Its saying that even when you do do bad things or good things, that doesn't make you instantly one side or the other. Life is not all extremes despite popular belief. Man, i can see why people dont post on the subject of religion much. Theres a recuring pattern...Anyway- I like how you try to make it seem like my idea of good and evil is a product of society and yet you leave out the fact that yours is too. Every thought we have, is a product of our society, but i digress. And, yet again, my words were twisted, i NEVER said anyone was "always" good or evil. I dont know where you people are getting this from. I also find it funny that someone said my views arnt everyone elses and yet here you say, "We are made to be evil so that the "good" ones can bring us down and therefore defeat evil and continue to be the "good" ones. But we all know that's a lie and we all know they aren't as good as they say if they're trying to take peoples rights away."I dont know who "we all" is, but i know i dont believe that. Sure, life is not all extremes, i see it like this: you got Very Good, Good, Bad, and Very Bad (you can add some more sub-good/bad if you like). Not just Very Good and Very Bad. But there is no "Not-Exactly-Good-Or-Bad-Kinda-Greyish" in the middle. But of course everything we have discussed is all opinion based on abstracts like good, evil, god, the devil, etc. Nothing we have talked about can be proven, which makes this argument very pointless in the end. While its nice to see peoples opinions, it hardly ever ends in, "Hey, your right, i totally agree with you!" unless they were in agreement in the very begining. Long story short, these exchanges are going to keep going back and forth and get very...irksome stressed
And you basically just said that there is a middle.
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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:00 pm
Emo-Amy-Rose Humans make humans evil. End of discussion. I think it would have been better if you said Humanity rather than humans. But its still a great point either way XD
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:11 pm
IndieUndies00 There was a topic on God and it got me thinking about the Devil so I just had to make this.
Basically, I hear it alot that people will blame the Devil for everything. He's the reason the world is so wrong. The reason people become alcoholics or stray from the righteous path. He's the reason theres so much wrong with the world.
I don't like that. I think that people are using him as a scapegoat to run away from knowing the truth.
I also don't like how it seems that some people will say that if its not Godly, its from the devil or is the devil. Why does it have to be so black and white? Good vs Evil? Wheres the shading in the middle, because it is there.
And I don't believe that the devil is the cause of all our problems. I agree and I think I have a good example of gray: a man (let's call him Man A) kills another man (Man B) because he sees Man B raping and killing a woman. Murder is a sin but Man A did it to save someone's life. Does that make Man A's actions completely evil then?
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:14 pm
Kari Twilight Mist IndieUndies00 There was a topic on God and it got me thinking about the Devil so I just had to make this.
Basically, I hear it alot that people will blame the Devil for everything. He's the reason the world is so wrong. The reason people become alcoholics or stray from the righteous path. He's the reason theres so much wrong with the world.
I don't like that. I think that people are using him as a scapegoat to run away from knowing the truth.
I also don't like how it seems that some people will say that if its not Godly, its from the devil or is the devil. Why does it have to be so black and white? Good vs Evil? Wheres the shading in the middle, because it is there.
And I don't believe that the devil is the cause of all our problems. I agree and I think I have a good example of gray: a man (let's call him Man A) kills another man (Man B) because he sees Man B raping and killing a woman. Murder is a sin but Man A did it to save someone's life. Does that make Man A's actions completely evil then? If you believe in the sanctity of human life, (like me) then yes. Murder is always a sin. Sometimes its understandable. Sometimes it's excusable. But killing someone is never a non-evil act. (and your example is a bad one. It shouldn't require death to stop a crime being comitted)
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:24 pm
PandoraCaitiff Kari Twilight Mist IndieUndies00 There was a topic on God and it got me thinking about the Devil so I just had to make this.
Basically, I hear it alot that people will blame the Devil for everything. He's the reason the world is so wrong. The reason people become alcoholics or stray from the righteous path. He's the reason theres so much wrong with the world.
I don't like that. I think that people are using him as a scapegoat to run away from knowing the truth.
I also don't like how it seems that some people will say that if its not Godly, its from the devil or is the devil. Why does it have to be so black and white? Good vs Evil? Wheres the shading in the middle, because it is there.
And I don't believe that the devil is the cause of all our problems. I agree and I think I have a good example of gray: a man (let's call him Man A) kills another man (Man B) because he sees Man B raping and killing a woman. Murder is a sin but Man A did it to save someone's life. Does that make Man A's actions completely evil then? If you believe in the sanctity of human life, (like me) then yes. Murder is always a sin. Sometimes its understandable. Sometimes it's excusable. But killing someone is never a non-evil act. (and your example is a bad one. It shouldn't require death to stop a crime being comitted) Actually I can't give you a reference link since I read it months ago but I based it on a real event. Man B had a knife and was going to stab the woman. Man A rushed to help her but was tackled by Man B who held the knife to this throat. The only way he managed lo live (and he still lost a lot of blood and was barely able to make the 911 call at a phone booth down the street) was to twist Man B's hand and have the knife cut Man B's throat. He couldn't maneuver in any other way while in that position on the ground to spare their lives whatsoever or he would have. And before you say he should have called the cops first, by the time they got there the woman and possibly he as well would already have been killed. So yes sometimes it IS necessary to do so.
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:08 pm
IndieUndies00 Xynch IndieUndies00 Xynch Taeryyn So if someone did nothing but good things their entire life, and then did something somewhat bad at the end, they're no longer a good person? From one culture to another, things that are almost universally seen as "bad" are those things that negatively affect yourself or someone else. Stealing, for example. Pretty much everyone can agree that it's wrong to steal. However, what if you and your family are starving, and you steal food from someone rich to give to your starving family? Are you automatically a bad person? I don't think many people would think so. Very few things in life are black and white. No, "gray" means that although an action may be good or bad, it must be looked at in the proper context. You can't just look at an action and deem it good or bad without considering the circumstances as well as the consequences. i dont know how to do that nifty quote trick you did so im going to have to answer this all at once. As for your first statement, you got it wrong. I believe that if someone did nothing but good deeds their whole life, and did one wrong thing, then, depending on the severity of that wrong deed, they are still good. Now if you donate 1 dollar a week to some charity your whole life, but then kill 1000 people, that evil deed seriously out weighs the good. Of course, many people would not think stealing to feed THEIR familys would be bad, but ask them about being stolen from. And i still see stealing as wrong, there are other ways to obtain food. and theft is theft, murder is murder. balck is black, white is white, there is no neutral. And i believe a great many things are black and white. As long as you look at them correctly and dont let naive, idealistic, notions such as neutrality cloud your vision.
Grey is not an excuse to do bad things and get away with it. Its saying that even when you do do bad things or good things, that doesn't make you instantly one side or the other. Life is not all extremes despite popular belief. Man, i can see why people dont post on the subject of religion much. Theres a recuring pattern...Anyway- I like how you try to make it seem like my idea of good and evil is a product of society and yet you leave out the fact that yours is too. Every thought we have, is a product of our society, but i digress. And, yet again, my words were twisted, i NEVER said anyone was "always" good or evil. I dont know where you people are getting this from. I also find it funny that someone said my views arnt everyone elses and yet here you say, "We are made to be evil so that the "good" ones can bring us down and therefore defeat evil and continue to be the "good" ones. But we all know that's a lie and we all know they aren't as good as they say if they're trying to take peoples rights away."I dont know who "we all" is, but i know i dont believe that. Sure, life is not all extremes, i see it like this: you got Very Good, Good, Bad, and Very Bad (you can add some more sub-good/bad if you like). Not just Very Good and Very Bad. But there is no "Not-Exactly-Good-Or-Bad-Kinda-Greyish" in the middle. But of course everything we have discussed is all opinion based on abstracts like good, evil, god, the devil, etc. Nothing we have talked about can be proven, which makes this argument very pointless in the end. While its nice to see peoples opinions, it hardly ever ends in, "Hey, your right, i totally agree with you!" unless they were in agreement in the very begining. Long story short, these exchanges are going to keep going back and forth and get very...irksome stressed
And you basically just said that there is a middle. Nope, no grey. And i never "basically" said anything like that.
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:11 pm
Kari Twilight Mist PandoraCaitiff Kari Twilight Mist IndieUndies00 There was a topic on God and it got me thinking about the Devil so I just had to make this.
Basically, I hear it alot that people will blame the Devil for everything. He's the reason the world is so wrong. The reason people become alcoholics or stray from the righteous path. He's the reason theres so much wrong with the world.
I don't like that. I think that people are using him as a scapegoat to run away from knowing the truth.
I also don't like how it seems that some people will say that if its not Godly, its from the devil or is the devil. Why does it have to be so black and white? Good vs Evil? Wheres the shading in the middle, because it is there.
And I don't believe that the devil is the cause of all our problems. I agree and I think I have a good example of gray: a man (let's call him Man A) kills another man (Man B) because he sees Man B raping and killing a woman. Murder is a sin but Man A did it to save someone's life. Does that make Man A's actions completely evil then? If you believe in the sanctity of human life, (like me) then yes. Murder is always a sin. Sometimes its understandable. Sometimes it's excusable. But killing someone is never a non-evil act. (and your example is a bad one. It shouldn't require death to stop a crime being comitted) Actually I can't give you a reference link since I read it months ago but I based it on a real event. Man B had a knife and was going to stab the woman. Man A rushed to help her but was tackled by Man B who held the knife to this throat. The only way he managed lo live (and he still lost a lot of blood and was barely able to make the 911 call at a phone booth down the street) was to twist Man B's hand and have the knife cut Man B's throat. He couldn't maneuver in any other way while in that position on the ground to spare their lives whatsoever or he would have. And before you say he should have called the cops first, by the time they got there the woman and possibly he as well would already have been killed. So yes sometimes it IS necessary to do so. For somthing you read months ago and cant find a link to, you seem to remember a suspicious amount of detail from that article... Well, anyway, I agree with the other guy. Murder is murder, therefore that guy is a murderer. That situation probebly could have been handled without someone being killed. Assuming it actually happened.
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:31 pm
Xynch IndieUndies00 Xynch IndieUndies00 Xynch Taeryyn So if someone did nothing but good things their entire life, and then did something somewhat bad at the end, they're no longer a good person? From one culture to another, things that are almost universally seen as "bad" are those things that negatively affect yourself or someone else. Stealing, for example. Pretty much everyone can agree that it's wrong to steal. However, what if you and your family are starving, and you steal food from someone rich to give to your starving family? Are you automatically a bad person? I don't think many people would think so. Very few things in life are black and white. No, "gray" means that although an action may be good or bad, it must be looked at in the proper context. You can't just look at an action and deem it good or bad without considering the circumstances as well as the consequences. i dont know how to do that nifty quote trick you did so im going to have to answer this all at once. As for your first statement, you got it wrong. I believe that if someone did nothing but good deeds their whole life, and did one wrong thing, then, depending on the severity of that wrong deed, they are still good. Now if you donate 1 dollar a week to some charity your whole life, but then kill 1000 people, that evil deed seriously out weighs the good. Of course, many people would not think stealing to feed THEIR familys would be bad, but ask them about being stolen from. And i still see stealing as wrong, there are other ways to obtain food. and theft is theft, murder is murder. balck is black, white is white, there is no neutral. And i believe a great many things are black and white. As long as you look at them correctly and dont let naive, idealistic, notions such as neutrality cloud your vision.
Grey is not an excuse to do bad things and get away with it. Its saying that even when you do do bad things or good things, that doesn't make you instantly one side or the other. Life is not all extremes despite popular belief. Man, i can see why people dont post on the subject of religion much. Theres a recuring pattern...Anyway- I like how you try to make it seem like my idea of good and evil is a product of society and yet you leave out the fact that yours is too. Every thought we have, is a product of our society, but i digress. And, yet again, my words were twisted, i NEVER said anyone was "always" good or evil. I dont know where you people are getting this from. I also find it funny that someone said my views arnt everyone elses and yet here you say, "We are made to be evil so that the "good" ones can bring us down and therefore defeat evil and continue to be the "good" ones. But we all know that's a lie and we all know they aren't as good as they say if they're trying to take peoples rights away."I dont know who "we all" is, but i know i dont believe that. Sure, life is not all extremes, i see it like this: you got Very Good, Good, Bad, and Very Bad (you can add some more sub-good/bad if you like). Not just Very Good and Very Bad. But there is no "Not-Exactly-Good-Or-Bad-Kinda-Greyish" in the middle. But of course everything we have discussed is all opinion based on abstracts like good, evil, god, the devil, etc. Nothing we have talked about can be proven, which makes this argument very pointless in the end. While its nice to see peoples opinions, it hardly ever ends in, "Hey, your right, i totally agree with you!" unless they were in agreement in the very begining. Long story short, these exchanges are going to keep going back and forth and get very...irksome stressed
And you basically just said that there is a middle. Nope, no grey. And i never "basically" said anything like that.
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:01 pm
Guys, would you mind cutting your quotes, please? : ) If you're not sure how, I can show you via PM, or do it for you.
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:50 pm
Xynch Kari Twilight Mist PandoraCaitiff Kari Twilight Mist IndieUndies00 There was a topic on God and it got me thinking about the Devil so I just had to make this.
Basically, I hear it alot that people will blame the Devil for everything. He's the reason the world is so wrong. The reason people become alcoholics or stray from the righteous path. He's the reason theres so much wrong with the world.
I don't like that. I think that people are using him as a scapegoat to run away from knowing the truth.
I also don't like how it seems that some people will say that if its not Godly, its from the devil or is the devil. Why does it have to be so black and white? Good vs Evil? Wheres the shading in the middle, because it is there.
And I don't believe that the devil is the cause of all our problems. I agree and I think I have a good example of gray: a man (let's call him Man A) kills another man (Man B) because he sees Man B raping and killing a woman. Murder is a sin but Man A did it to save someone's life. Does that make Man A's actions completely evil then? If you believe in the sanctity of human life, (like me) then yes. Murder is always a sin. Sometimes its understandable. Sometimes it's excusable. But killing someone is never a non-evil act. (and your example is a bad one. It shouldn't require death to stop a crime being comitted) Actually I can't give you a reference link since I read it months ago but I based it on a real event. Man B had a knife and was going to stab the woman. Man A rushed to help her but was tackled by Man B who held the knife to this throat. The only way he managed lo live (and he still lost a lot of blood and was barely able to make the 911 call at a phone booth down the street) was to twist Man B's hand and have the knife cut Man B's throat. He couldn't maneuver in any other way while in that position on the ground to spare their lives whatsoever or he would have. And before you say he should have called the cops first, by the time they got there the woman and possibly he as well would already have been killed. So yes sometimes it IS necessary to do so. For somthing you read months ago and cant find a link to, you seem to remember a suspicious amount of detail from that article... Well, anyway, I agree with the other guy. Murder is murder, therefore that guy is a murderer. That situation probebly could have been handled without someone being killed. Assuming it actually happened. I would give you the link but like I said I lost it. The reason I remember so much is because I did a short essay in Sociology about it. Our topic was Moral Standards of Society Versus Religion In Criminal Acts (we got to choose which religion) I lost the link because I threw away the paper since it was graded (plus I only got an 80%). I might have it in my computer I'll have to look. It actually might be in one of my flash drives... Anyway believe me or not there are other scenarios similar to that I'm sure you can find easily. Oh an alternative site I went to but didn't mention much was site because I needed a legal backup to go with the "Society" part. The problem with that was I forgot the "Moral" part (hence the 80%). I DID mention that it contrasted with the religious views of the religion I chose (I'm not going to say which one because I don't want to make anyone feel targeted). And I just looked up that link again because unlike the other it isn't buried pages back. Oh and I looked up quotes from the religious text (once again I don't mean to target) as well to compare and contrast the issues. I saw that there were many instances where it WAS black or white but the example I found had me notice the different values clashed again but at the same time contradicted each other. Unfortunately it wasn't an opinion paper so I couldn't add that. Anyway I will look through my first summer session flash drive if I can find it for the link.
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:47 am
I will always adhere to the fact that we as modern human beings are responsible for our own foolishness.
Blaming it on an entity half the world disbelieves in is... both frustrating and, yet, very amusing.
So I agree with you, and then strongly disagree with you.
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:23 pm
I feel as though I must make the observation that there are 2 or 3 different arguments going on here in this thread at the same time. We can never agree on something, can we?
Well, to keep this thread from derailing any futher, can we AT LEAST come to the general conclusion that blaming a scapegoat for our own ill behavior is wrong? Or am I wrong myself?
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:13 pm
i don't think the devil is an actual walking thing just a representation of the pain and sorrow in the world. (my opinion)
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:27 pm
I believe that there are some strongly unfortunate unknowns in this world...
How can anyone say what religion is wrong or right, or if God or the Devil, or neither, or one or the other exists? No one really knows.
The fact that possession of a supernatural kind happens and exists is stone cold fact. Something possesses people occasionally, whether it's a Spiritual entity such as a demon or some Natural cause or WHATEVER. There are some unexplained phenomena linked to Spirits and/or Spiritual Entities/Deities, and some unanswered questions concerning certain religions.
However personally, after certain personal experiences, I am forced to believe that both God and the Devil exist.
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:37 pm
IndieUndies00 Xynch IndieUndies00 Xynch Taeryyn So if someone did nothing but good things their entire life, and then did something somewhat bad at the end, they're no longer a good person? From one culture to another, things that are almost universally seen as "bad" are those things that negatively affect yourself or someone else. Stealing, for example. Pretty much everyone can agree that it's wrong to steal. However, what if you and your family are starving, and you steal food from someone rich to give to your starving family? Are you automatically a bad person? I don't think many people would think so. Very few things in life are black and white. No, "gray" means that although an action may be good or bad, it must be looked at in the proper context. You can't just look at an action and deem it good or bad without considering the circumstances as well as the consequences. i dont know how to do that nifty quote trick you did so im going to have to answer this all at once. As for your first statement, you got it wrong. I believe that if someone did nothing but good deeds their whole life, and did one wrong thing, then, depending on the severity of that wrong deed, they are still good. Now if you donate 1 dollar a week to some charity your whole life, but then kill 1000 people, that evil deed seriously out weighs the good. Of course, many people would not think stealing to feed THEIR familys would be bad, but ask them about being stolen from. And i still see stealing as wrong, there are other ways to obtain food. and theft is theft, murder is murder. balck is black, white is white, there is no neutral. And i believe a great many things are black and white. As long as you look at them correctly and dont let naive, idealistic, notions such as neutrality cloud your vision.
Grey is not an excuse to do bad things and get away with it. Its saying that even when you do do bad things or good things, that doesn't make you instantly one side or the other. Life is not all extremes despite popular belief. Man, i can see why people dont post on the subject of religion much. Theres a recuring pattern...Anyway- I like how you try to make it seem like my idea of good and evil is a product of society and yet you leave out the fact that yours is too. Every thought we have, is a product of our society, but i digress. And, yet again, my words were twisted, i NEVER said anyone was "always" good or evil. I dont know where you people are getting this from. I also find it funny that someone said my views arnt everyone elses and yet here you say, "We are made to be evil so that the "good" ones can bring us down and therefore defeat evil and continue to be the "good" ones. But we all know that's a lie and we all know they aren't as good as they say if they're trying to take peoples rights away."I dont know who "we all" is, but i know i dont believe that. Sure, life is not all extremes, i see it like this: you got Very Good, Good, Bad, and Very Bad (you can add some more sub-good/bad if you like). Not just Very Good and Very Bad. But there is no "Not-Exactly-Good-Or-Bad-Kinda-Greyish" in the middle. But of course everything we have discussed is all opinion based on abstracts like good, evil, god, the devil, etc. Nothing we have talked about can be proven, which makes this argument very pointless in the end. While its nice to see peoples opinions, it hardly ever ends in, "Hey, your right, i totally agree with you!" unless they were in agreement in the very begining. Long story short, these exchanges are going to keep going back and forth and get very...irksome stressed
And you basically just said that there is a middle. Isn't it all just a matter of perspective?
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