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 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:05 pm
Tourniquet Static Open my eyes to sub-genres of religion. I only know the main ones (Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sihk, etc.) So what is "Wicca" and what is "Heathen"? And everything else in between? I'm pretty sure that if some kind person in the know opens my mind, I could find something that suits me. I have a very loose definition that I put to Wicca- someone that believes in spiritual forces and a form of white witchcraft- but I'm convinced I am out of date with that one. I don't want to come across as an unitelligent and ignorant fool. Bear in mind I am just 13 years old, and many people who claim to be Wicca probably don't know that much either (a group of very irritating girls at school as my basis). I want to learn about these things to widen my knowledge of the world, so don't hate me for wanting to be educated. Heathen is NOT a religion. It's what religious people call those who do not believe in the same religion as them as an insult.
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:22 pm
cwilder725 Heathen is NOT a religion. It's what religious people call those who do not believe in the same religion as them as an insult. Heathenry is a term used to describe a particular type of Pagan religions, mainly those found in Anglo-Saxon England, Scandinavia, Germany and Frisia (Friesland). As to it being an insult, it depends on the context of it's usage. There's quite a few Pagans I know that prefer to be called Heathens then Pagans since it more accurately describes their belief system then pagan.
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:32 pm
rmcdra cwilder725 Heathen is NOT a religion. It's what religious people call those who do not believe in the same religion as them as an insult. Heathenry is a term used to describe a particular type of Pagan religions, mainly those found in Anglo-Saxon England, Scandinavia, Germany and Frisia (Friesland). As to it being an insult, it depends on the context of it's usage. There's quite a few Pagans I know that prefer to be called Heathens then Pagans since it more accurately describes their belief system then pagan. this. it also can be used in a positive way as a heritage thing. for a fuller explanation, i'd suggest reading such books as Gothic Wicca by Brena Knight, and Goth Magic by Raven Grimassi. (i may have gotten some names mixed up, if so, forgive me. my books are all currently in suitcases).
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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:46 pm
rmcdra Wicca an Orthopraxic, Oathbound, Initiatory, Mystery-based, Experiential, Coven-based, Fertility-focused, Dithesitic Witch-cult whose members are all Clergy within a Lineaged Tradition. Most people who claim to be Wicca aren't actually Wicca since one requires initiation to be Wicca and initiation is sexual meaning in most areas you have to be at least 18 before a coven will consider you. Heathen (correct me on this if I'm wrong) is an adherent to a Germanic or Norse religious beliefs and practices. What the hell is this s**t!? I'm not going to go through 3 pages, but has anyone said anything about this post yet? No. No no no, just no. You don't have to be initiated to be a Wiccan. Uh, do you have to be bopped on the head by a magic wand or something? Noooo. 1/2 of the world's TRUE Wiccan population are solitary. They study the magick for years and then dedicate themselves to Goddess and God, and honor Spirit and.... how the hell do you think the first Wiccan got initiated, then? There was noone to initiate them. Okay, if you want to get technical, Goddess initiated them. When humans were created through evolution, (evoulation that was triggered by the Deities) then She decided that there needed to be people among the other people to lead and help each other. These people were "medicine woman/men" and "healers." They passed down their knowledge, and it did morph a bit and change, and now we have Wicca today. Look, Wicca today is neo paganism. What you said is NEW AGE paganism. So totally different. Like, consider it mallgoth. Mallgoth and true victorian gothicism are totally opposite, nothing in common. That's what neo paganism and new age is like. Hmm, what else? ah, yes, sex. Sex is considered an act of worship to Goddess. But, only if it's within love and is healthy and consentual. The only place you'll find "sexual initation" is if it's some weird FAKE wicca cult. s**t, sorry, that just... it's late. i'll shut up.
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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:25 pm
lavender opheliac What the hell is this s**t!? It's the definition of Wicca. Quote: I'm not going to go through 3 pages, but has anyone said anything about this post yet? Is there a problem with this definition? Did I leave out a requirement? Why? Quote: You don't have to be initiated to be a Wiccan. Gardner, Gerald. The Meaning of Witchcraft - page 126 Gomme, in Folklore as a Historical Science (p. 201 et seq), stresses the importance of the act of initiation as applied to the witch cult. "It emphasizes the existence of a cast apart from the general populace. The existence of this caste long before, where they did practise their powers, carrying back this act of initiation age after age. It is clear that the people who were from time to time introduced into the witch caste carried on the practices and assumed the functions of the caste even though they came into it as novices and strangers. We thus arrive at what might be termed as an artificial means of descent into a peculiar group of superstitions. This was influenced in the Middle Ages by beliefs of the carrying on of traditional practices by certain families and groups of people who could only acquire such practices by initiation and family teaching." This is, of course, exactly what happened. It is a family group, if you like; but not all of the family belongs to it, only those who are initiated, and Gardner, Gerald. The Meaning of Witchcraft - page 120 Being forced to write their names, I take simply to mean that they were told, "If you want to come again, you must be one of us, that is, be initiated, initiation is a requirement for membership and then you will be a fairy". Now in France, as in Scotland, a large number of people spoke of 'fairies" when they obviously meant witches. It was a more polite term, and in Scotland any communication with "fairies" was taken as an admission of dealing with witches, that is, with the "heathen", the People of the Heaths, who practised the Old Religion and worked magical rites. and Gardner, Gerald. The Meaning of Witchcraft - page 16 Witch meetings today may take place anywhere that it is convenient, and only people who have been initiated into the cult are allowed to be present. Seems that initiation is very important. Quote: Uh, do you have to be bopped on the head by a magic wand or something? Noooo. Of course not, that's silly but there is a specific ritual the initiate must complete with either the HP or HPS depending on the initiate's gender. Gardner, Gerald. Witchcraft Today - page 69 The witches tell me: "The law has always been that power must be passed from man to woman or from woman to man,[...]" Quote: 1/2 of the world's TRUE Wiccan population are solitary. They study the magick for years and then dedicate themselves to Goddess and God, and honor Spirit and.... how the hell do you think the first Wiccan got initiated, then? There was noone to initiate them. Okay first it's magic. Magick is practiced in Thelma. Second according to be Wicca, one has to be initiated to be a Wicca. It doesn't mean they aren't witches or their tradition isn't valid, it just means it isn't Wicca. Quote: Okay, if you want to get technical, Goddess initiated them. When humans were created through evolution, (evoulation that was triggered by the Deities) then She decided that there needed to be people among the other people to lead and help each other. These people were "medicine woman/men" and "healers." They passed down their knowledge, and it did morph a bit and change, and now we have Wicca today. Citation for this please. Quote: Look, Wicca today is neo paganism. What you said is NEW AGE paganism. So totally different. Like, consider it mallgoth. Mallgoth and true victorian gothicism are totally opposite, nothing in common. That's what neo paganism and new age is like. No New Age is a movement that started in the early 20th century concerning esoteric knowledge and stems from the theosophy movement. The idea in New Age movements is that esoteric/mystic knowledge is freely available to anybody one does not need a coven, temple, order, etc... to obtain specific esoteric/mystic knowledge. Neo-paganism are pagan movements that are relatively new and modern. Wicca is a neopagan religion since it was only created like 60 years ago. Quote: Hmm, what else? ah, yes, sex. Sex is considered an act of worship to Goddess. But, only if it's within love and is healthy and consentual. The only place you'll find "sexual initation" is if it's some weird FAKE wicca cult. Really? Gardner says otherwise. Gardner, Gerald. Witchcraft Today - page 140 "We worship the divine spirit of Creation, which is the Life-Spring of the world and without which the world would perish. To us it is the most sacred and holy mystery, proof that God is within us whose command is: 'Go forth and multiply.' Such rites are done in a holy and reverent way." and Gardner, Gerald. The Meaning of Witchcraft - page 228 The worship of the witch cult is, and always has been, that of the principle of Life itself. It has made of that principle, as manifested in sex, something sacred... There is still, in the collective unconsciousness of men's minds, a realisation of the rightness of the Old Sacred Marriage. Quote: s**t, sorry, that just... it's late. i'll shut up. So you are retracting your comments? In closing, this is not an attack on anyone's belief system. It does not mean that one is not a witch, pagan, neo-pagan, etc.. nor does this imply that their religion isn't valid. All this means is that those that can't trace a initiation lineage back to Gardner aren't Wicca. There's nothing wrong with being an eclectic neopagan.
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:59 am
lavender opheliac I'm not going to go through 3 pages, but has anyone said anything about this post yet? Why would we? It looks fairly accurate. Could it be that you've been misinformed? Additionally, you might want to read back through those pages. I can't remember what's on 'em but it's probably useful. Quote: You don't have to be initiated to be a Wiccan. Uh, do you have to be bopped on the head by a magic wand or something? Noooo. I don't think that ever happens in Wiccan initiation rituals. I'm inferring some derogatory stuff here. Are you mocking their rituals? Is this because you don't understand them, or are you just not a fan of Wicca, or what? Quote: 1/2 of the world's TRUE Wiccan population are solitary. By what virtue are they "TRUE Wiccans"? Quote: They study the magick for years and then dedicate themselves to Goddess and God, I thought they studied "magic". I was under the impression that Thelemites studied "magick". But it's possible I'm just being snide because your post is too angry for all its lack of information. Which goddess? Which god? See I'm confused. You're clearly speaking of a specific religion here. What are the beliefs and/or practices of this religion? Because I practice witchcraft, and I worship a goddess and a god. But my religious witchcraft isn't anything like Wicca. Quote: and honor Spirit and.... how the hell do you think the first Wiccan got initiated, then? There was noone to initiate them. The same way the first chicken egg was laid, actually. He was initiated by someone who was a member of a religion that was nearly, but not quite, Wicca. Then he altered it a little and made it Wicca. Of course when I say "a little" I mean "quite a bit really depending on your point of view". Point is, he was initiated into the Mysteries, and the Mysteries remain in Wicca, for all that the experiential rituals are a bit different. Quote: Okay, if you want to get technical, Goddess initiated them. When humans were created through evolution, (evoulation that was triggered by the Deities) then She decided that there needed to be people among the other people to lead and help each other. These people were "medicine woman/men" and "healers." They passed down their knowledge, and it did morph a bit and change, and now we have Wicca today. Medicine people and healers who still practice their traditional wotsits would like a word or two with you. They are holding large impliments of a traditional nature. They may or may not be considering beating the snot out of you with them. Additionally, you're speaking as if this is some manner of well-known fact. Much of Wiccan lore is oathbound, but I don't recall coming across this information in the public lore. Could you state your source for us? Quote: Look, Wicca today is neo paganism. What you said is NEW AGE paganism. So totally different. Like, consider it mallgoth. Mallgoth and true victorian gothicism are totally opposite, nothing in common. That's what neo paganism and new age is like. The ********....? What's this "true victorian gothicism" crap you're trying to sell me here? Have you heard of Bauhaus? Would you like to explain to the class why "true victorian gothicism" somehow trumps "Bela Lugosi's Dead" in the Gothier Than Thou Subcultural Supremacy Competition? That aside. Why is the original Wicca, being a religion conceived of and created in the 1940s and 1950s, more "new age" than a religion (or number of religions) loosely based on public information available on Wicca? Because to me, based on my interpretation of the phrase "new age Paganism", it'd totally be the other way around. Not that it would make the latter somehow not Neo-Paganism; one simply has to be a subgroup of the other, n'est pas? Hmm, what else? ah, yes, sex. Quote: Sex is considered an act of worship to Goddess. But, only if it's within love and is healthy and consentual. The only place you'll find "sexual initation" is if it's some weird FAKE wicca cult. Seriously, though. What the great ******** have you been reading? What makes you think sex rites aren't within love, aren't heathy and consensual? Are you making the assumption that, because it's a part of an initiation rite, it somehow can't be healthy and consensual? There are sexual elements of the majority of Wiccan rites. You might not recognise them, but they're there. The Great Rite is essential (as is my understanding) in Third Degree initiations. Sexual elements exist in other initiations. Why is this unhealthy? Why is this a problem? Why are you implying that this is somehow a bad thing? Why would a religion with sexual rites be fake?
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:37 am
I am a Eclectic Dianic Wiccan, and I follow the wisdom of Scott Cunningham, not Garder.
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:34 am
lavender opheliac I am a Eclectic Dianic Wiccan, and I follow the wisdom of Scott Cunningham, not Garder. As you were, I was
Cunningham may have BEEN a Wiccan, but he isn't anymore. Why would a Dianic follow the teachings of a Male, when their whole practice is about worshiping the Goddess? By the way, Eclectic Dianic and Wiccan don't go well together, considering Eclectic means selecting what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles. Dianic's are no longer Wiccan, then dropped that part off their path years ago because they do not worship the Lord of the Lake, only the Lady of the Lake, and well Wicca is a very specific path with ever more specific rules (the 161 Ardanes) and worship two very specific deities who's names are bound by oath and only revealed through the mysteries that is Wicca.
Edit:
Also, Zsuzsanna Emese Mokcsay created Dianic Witchcraft, not Cunningham.
As I am, you will be
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:07 am
Calelith Cunningham may have BEEN a Wiccan, but he isn't anymore On account of being dead? xd Nah that's mean. He seemed a nice chap, did Cunningham. Quote: the Lord of the Lake, only the Lady of the Lake, Isles, poppet, Lord and Lady of the Isles. The Lady of the Lake gave Arthur that sword. And I don't think they do, come to that. They worship a goddess, but whether that's the same as the Lady of the Isles is a bit of a question mark to me.
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:36 pm
Heathen
Main Entry: 1hea·then
Pronunciation: ˈhē-thən
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English hethen, from Old English hǣthen; akin to Old High German heidan heathen, and probably to Old English hǣth heath
Date: before 12th century
1 : of or relating to heathens, their religions, or their customs
2 : strange, uncivilized
Heathen was often also used to describe "country dweller".
Heathen is not used to describe ANY type of pagan religion. Celtic, Dianic, Hecatian, Pictish, Teutonic and many others, but no pagan sect refers to themselves as a heathen.
You do not have to join any coven to be wiccan, you do not have to be initiated in any way. UNLESS you are following a certain sect or seeking to join a coven, then it may be required.
Sex is not used in ceremonies, however, some covens may do that. Wicca is not a defined religion, every individual and coven as the right to choose how they will interpret and practice the religion. I will note that pagans embrace sex, because we do not see it as wrong. That doesn't mean we run around humping everyone's legs.
Again, Wicca is NOT A DEFINED, BOOK BASED RELIGION. It doesn't matter what a book, even a book by a well renowned pagan author, writes. The religion is based on the practitioner, not someone else s idea.
The only rule, and I mean the only rule is this:
Do what you will and in it harm none.
Signed,
Your High Priestess
Cyberbat
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:35 pm
lavender opheliac I am a Eclectic Dianic Wiccan, and I follow the wisdom of Scott Cunningham, not Garder. Then you are not Wiccan, you are Eclectic Neo-Pagan.
What Cunningham teaches is Eclectic Neo-Paganism, not Wicca. He claims the title of "Wicca" because its shorter and sounds more appealing than ENP and is more likely to sell. But it is not Wicca.
That does not, however, mean that its not a valid religious path, it just means that he's calling it by the wrong name. It would be like a new Christian sect calling itself "Jewish". Cunningham's ENP may have been influenced by Wicca, it my even have evolved from Wicca, but its not. ... could kick your a** !!
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:39 pm
cyberbat You do not have to join any coven to be wiccan, you do not have to be initiated in any way. UNLESS you are following a certain sect or seeking to join a coven, then it may be required. Sex is not used in ceremonies, however, some covens may do that. Wicca is not a defined religion, every individual and coven as the right to choose how they will interpret and practice the religion. I will note that pagans embrace sex, because we do not see it as wrong. That doesn't mean we run around humping everyone's legs. Again, Wicca is NOT A DEFINED, BOOK BASED RELIGION. It doesn't matter what a book, even a book by a well renowned pagan author, writes. The religion is based on the practitioner, not someone else s idea. The only rule, and I mean the only rule is this: Do what you will and in it harm none. You have just described Eclectic Neo-Paganism, not Wicca.
Also, "do hat you will and in it harm none" is part of the Rede which is not Wiccan, was never Wiccan and is not even a law. "Rede" quite litterally means "advice" and that's all the Rede is, advice. No witch, whether they be Wiccan, ENP, secular, etr. is expected to follow it. No one is required to follow advice.
It first appeared in a speech by Doreen Valiente in 1964 - at least a decade after Gardner founded Wicca. It was never a part of Wiccan law, or practice. And "rede" literally means advice - since when is one required to take advice? Both it, and the Three-fold Law, are new-age constructs. It's up to the individual Wiccan whether or not they choose to believe them, as is their right. Belief or disbelief in either is not a defining characteristic of being Wiccan. ... could kick your a** !!
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:33 am
cyberbat Heathen Main Entry: 1hea·then Pronunciation: ˈhē-thən Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English hethen, from Old English hǣthen; akin to Old High German heidan heathen, and probably to Old English hǣth heath Date: before 12th century 1 : of or relating to heathens, their religions, or their customs 2 : strange, uncivilized Heathen was often also used to describe "country dweller". Heathen is not used to describe ANY type of pagan religion. Celtic, Dianic, Hecatian, Pictish, Teutonic and many others, but no pagan sect refers to themselves as a heathen. The hell you say? Are you saying Heathens aren't Pagans, or that no Pagan refers to themself as a Heathen, or what? Because neither of those are true. Quote: -snip- Signed, Your High Priestess Cyberbat WHY do we have to have this conversation OVER AND OVER. Can you just read over the rest of the thread and pretend it was me repeating that information over again? Because all you're bringing to the table is stuff we've already dealt with.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:14 am
iii-_- idiocy.... it pervades.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:44 am
Chieftain Twilight iii-_- idiocy.... it pervades.
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