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Why would he tell his disciples that some of them would not tast death?

I welcome death. pirate exclaim

Well if you welcome death make sure your heart is right.

And that is an odd way to look at life. God gives us life so we can enjoy it and better the Kingdom. What good are you if your dead. The only person you would benefit (as long as your a Christian) is you.

Philippians 1(KJV)
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor; yet what I shall choose, I know not.
23For I am in a strait between the two, having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better;
24nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy in faith,
26that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

Paul in this passage tells the Philippians that he is torn between dying and living. He wants to die so he can be with God which is WAY better than anything we can imagine. But he chooses life on earth so that he can help better the growth of the Philippians. So while your here on earth live to better the Kingdom so that many more people can have the unfathomable joy of being in the presence of God.

Hello. I would like to put in my two cents on a couple of things mentioned here.

1) The meaning of life is simple. You are here to make a choice. To be for God, or against Him. If you do not choose to be for Him, you have chosen against Him by default. There is no middle ground. Until He gathers you to Him, according to His own timing, you then have the responsibility to be a light in this ever darkening world so that other can make that choice. You are to be as a city on hill which cannot be hid.

2) Is the Rapture debate/doctrine important? Yes, absolutely. There are at least 8 verses in scripture which tell us to "Watch, therefore,". Furthermore, a woe was declared on the Jews because they did NOT watch, and did not know the "time of their visitation." In addition were Paul's words to Timothy that he should study to show himself approved to God, a workman that didn't need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. So whoever said hand out bread to homeless people and not worry about studying doctrine or theology was a little off.

3) Is there a pre-trib rapture? One of the above mentioned "watch, therefore" verses was Luke 21:36, in which Jesus tells us to watch and pray that we might be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS. The things he was referring to were descriptive of the tribulation period during which Anti-Christ would reign. Read the whole chapter. What was the escape he was referring to if not the Rapture? Death? I think not, because 1 Cor. 15:51 tells us we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. And 1 Th 4:16-17 tell us that the dead shall rise first and then those of us who remain will be "caught up" together with them IN THE AIR with Christ. I'm getting long-winded, but, there are two things I want to point out about this last verse. First, this is not at the time when Christ makes his second coming apperance and touches down on the mount of olives, because that happens AFTER the tribulation, Which I've already pointed out that we are to pray to be worthy to escape. 2nd, for those who said that rapture does not appear in the Bible, they are incorrect. The word Rapturos, from which we get the word rapture, appears in the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible in this very verse, and is translated here as the phrase "caught up". Therefore the verse could be rendered "those of us who remain will be RAPTURED together with them in the air..."

4) Finally, in defense of the Pre-trib rapture view, I would like to say this. We are told that "of that day and that hour, no man knows." This has to refer to the rapture and NOT the second coming, because the second coming has a specific date, which can be easily determined by anyone who has read the Bible. It is EXACTLY 7 years from the date of the signing of the treaty between Antichrist and Israel, which marks the beginning of the tribulation.

Lastly, for any of you who are truly interested in this subject, I have started a guild called the

It is new, and does not have much content yet, but, I'm really hoping it will be a blessing to all who choose to be a part of it. I am also looking for like-minded individuals to be mods and help make it something great. It is , however, a private guild, which means a join request will be necessary before you are able to post.

Well thought-out post. pirate pirate

First, let's compare Adam and Abraham, since you brought them up. God made it clear to Adam, as you have suggested, that He was God, and Adam was his man. Yet Adam CHOSE to believe the serpent rather than God, with some persuasion from his wife, Eve. Yet Abraham, as we are told in Romans 4:3, "believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness." If God didn't give them choice, then why did one believe the Truth, and the other believe a lie? Adam made a decision in pride to "be like God," whereas Abraham made a decision in humility to be servant and friend of the Lord.
I will get to Enoch shortly, but I also want to look at the nation of Israel, which you brought up. It is true that God told the nation of Israel that he would be their God, and they would be his people. The very first instance of this is Leviticus 26:12 which says "And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people." It is the last in a list of blessings that started way back in verse 3 which says "If you walk in my statutes; and keep my commandments, and do them;" followed by verses 4 through 12 which say: then I will do this, and this, and bless you this way, ending with "and ye shall be my people" (verse 12) What was that? If? sounds like a choice to me. But wait, there's more, starting at verse 14, it says "BUT, IF YOU WILL NOT hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;" and proceeds on through a list of curses including "I will walk contrary to you" (vs 24, 28 ) as opposed to "among them" as in verse 12. "If you will", and "But, if you will not" definitely meets the definition of choice that I am familiar with. Lastly, with regards to Israel, being born a Jew is definitely NOT a guarantee of salvation. I'm sure you can agree with me on that point. Not all Jews have been saved, and vast multitudes suffered God's wrath, including an entire generation that was not permitted to see the promised land. The Jews were spared because God is NOT a liar , and kept his covenant promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Wow, this is going to be a long response. Lol! (I apologize for my own sharpness, BTW wink )

Now, getting back to Enoch. I love this guy. Why? Because he is one of two people in the Old Testament who were Raptured! Check the family tree in Genesis chapter 5! Here's the abridged version: Adam lived 930 years; and he died. Seth, 912 years, and he died. Enos, 905, and he died. Cainan, 910 years, and he died. Mahalaleel, 895 years, and he died. Jared, 962 years, and he died. (here it comes!! this is AWESOME!!) Enoch, 365 years, and he was not, for God took him. (verse 24) and then it resumes: Methuselah, 969 years, and he died. Lamech, 777 years, and he died. And then we're into Noah and the ark. So, as it is recorded in scripture (look it up), everyone died except Enoch, because God took him.

I already know that there is going to be an argument against this, and it would be hard for me to respond if this were the only case recorded. However.. there was this other guy some of you may have heard of named Elijah. 2 Kings chapter 2 is where you will find his story. Verse 11 says he "...went up by a whirlwind into Heaven." Continuing to read that chapter will tell you that what happened was common knowledge, for even little children came out to meet Elisha telling him to "go up, thou Bald head" as his master Elijah had. (verse 23.)

So, we see, even in the Old Testament, there are 2 cases supporting the idea of a rapture, people being taken into heaven without dying. But why two cases? Why not just Enoch? Or just Elijah? The reason is, by Biblical standards, that "...In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." I personally believe that they are even called witnesses in the Bible. At this point, I am stepping into the realm of conjecture, but it is my contention that Enoch and Elijah, having never died, are the two witnesses referred to in Revelation 11:3- "And I will give power to my TWO WITNESSESS, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." Many End Times scholars believe that the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses, but, I disagree. That is a discussion for another time, however, seeing that I have gotten WAY off the topic of choice, and back into the rapture. lol!

I'll say one more thing about choice and then move on. Jesus gave a parable of a wedding in Matthew 22, where many people were called to the feast, but they all made excuses why they couldn't come. These were found unworthy. The Master of the feast eventually caused his servants to dig up the outcasts of society and bring them in to be fed. These arrived, but one was found without a wedding garment, and was cast out. The parable ends with the statement in verse 14: "For many are called, but few are chosen." This verse clearly suggests that it is not we who do the choosing, but the Master, which I believe falls in line with your point. It is called predestination. This idea is further borne out when you take into account the scriptures which tell us that no man comes to the Father except through Christ, and that no man can come to Christ unless the Spirit draws him. But, take a closer look. Who is it that are chosen? Those who CHOSE to heed and obey the call. Which brings me to the heart of what I personally believe on this subject. Not everyone has a choice. The potter creates from one lump, both vessels of honor, and vessels of dishonor, according to his will. Of those who are called, however, only some will choose to heed and obey that call, and others will choose to go their own way. phew!!! nuff said on that one for now.


Alright, I'll try to make this shorter and more concise than my last bit. I did not actually expect this topic to get so full blown. But I'm glad for it. smile Iron sharpens Iron, so they say. I'm having a good time. I hope you are as well. Here goes. First, if you read the verse, it does not say "may not see these day" the may is not a question of whether there is an escape. It is a question of whether you "may" be accounted worthy of the escape that exists. The placement of the "may" makes a HUGE difference. Using your own terminology, it does not say "pray for our rescue", it says "pray to be worthy" of the escape. Very Large difference.
In reference to the praying not to be pregnant, or in winter, (or on the Sabbath, in the Matthew 24 account), it doesn't say pray for those things. It says WOE unto those who are in those conditions and it is speaking specifically to Jews, not Christians who have already been raptured. The verses just prior say "when you see armies circled about Jerusalem..." and "Let those in Judea flee into the mountains" It is talking about Jews in Judea AFTER the church has already left, when God has come to redeem his chosen people according to his covenant promises.
This is further reinforced by the Matthew account which says "When you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place". This is obviously in reference to the Jewish Temple, which is of significance only to the Jews, and not necessarily to Christians, as evidenced by Jesus statement to the woman at the well, that the true worshipers would worship neither in the mountain, nor in Jerusalem, but in Spirit, and in Truth. (John 4:21-24)
Furthermore, this flight from Judea into the mountains is depicted in Revelation chapter 12. It takes place 42 months (3 1/2 years, halfway through the 7 years) into the tribulation.



First, You are correct in that paul is referencing that believers are in Christ when they fall asleep (die). The topic of conversation is the Hope of the resurrection. For if we die in Christ, we also Rise in Christ, as Christ rose. To illustrate, he tells us that just as a seed dies to bring forth a plant, our mortal, corruptible bodies die to bring forth and incorruptible body. The natural body, brings forth the spiritual body. And we must be changed into the incorruptible, spiritual body, because flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God, and corruption does not inherit incorruption. And THEN he says "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." In other words, because we have to stay with the illustrations we are given, we shall not all die as seeds die to bring forth the plant, but we shall all become the plant anyway. Our corruptible must put on incorruptible. In the twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed.
Second, the question becomes, when will this happen? Is it at the last day, as you have stated? Or is it at a time prior to the last day. You seem to be stuck on the idea that the Last Trump is on the last day (the day of Judgement), or on the day of Christ's return to earth. (I'm not sure of which... they are 2 separate events, 1,000 years apart.)
We have clear pictures of both events in the book of Revelation (a book you seem to have an aversion to). We'll take the Return of Christ first.
This takes place in Chapter 19, and is vividly described with many details including: heaven opened, a white horse, eyes of flame, many crowns on Christ's head, a vesture dipped in blood, multitudes following on white horses, wearing fine linen, clean and white (hmmm.. who are these people?), the sword of his mouth, a name written on him, being King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. Also there are descriptions of voices of great multitudes crying alleluia, Praises to God, mighty thunderings. But.... no trumpets.
What about Judgment day? Chapter 20 describes this event, widely known as the Great White Throne Judgment. The description includes: The Devil loosed from the bottomless pit (where he was chained for 1,000 years upon Christ's return), The gathering together of armies, encompassing the saints, for the final rebellion against God, Fire from God out of Heaven devouring them, The devil cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the Antichrist and false prophet are, A great white throne, the opening of books, including the book of Life, the judging of the deeds recorded in those books. Yet again, no trumpets.
So, when was the Last Trump? Well, there are 7 trumpets during the tribulation, however, those trumpets are only heard in Heaven, and not on earth. The last trump heard on earth Takes place Way back in Revelation chapter 4, verse 1. "After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven: and the first voice I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me; which said 'come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter'" At which point John was "caught up" to heaven and faced with his Lord. This same voice spoke to him in chapter 1 with the voice of a trumpet, and his first words there are "I am Alpha, and Omega, the First and the Last..." and is revealed clearly as the Son of Man, Jesus Christ. The book, after all, is The Revelation of Jesus Christ. So, he is the Last, and he has the voice of a trumpet. Could the voice of Christ be the Last Trump? It would seem so, because only believers on earth will hear this call, and we are told by Christ himself that "my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27) John was told to record what he had seen (the vision of Christ so far), the things which are (the church age - i.e. the seven letters), and the things which shall be hereafter (things AFTER the church age). To illustrate the rapture, John was called by the voice of the trumpet, and told to come up, and immediately he was caught up to heaven, and by immediately, I mean, in the twinkling of an eye. It was not until AFTER he was caught up, that the things which shall be hereafter (After the church age) were revealed.

Third, you won't catch me on the Greek, buddy. The word used for the raising of dead in the thessalonians verse is "Anestemi" (in the original greek) which means "to stand up, lift, or raise from" I trust the voice of the Last Trump is capable of doing this, seeing as it is the same way he raised Lazarus from the dead. "Lazarus, come forth." Coincidence? And the word used for the living is "Harpazo" (again, in the original Greek) which means "to seize, carry off, or snatch away". Clearly "caught up", or Rapturos (in the Latin), or Rapture is a perfectly accurate and reasonable translation.



This is a misconception on your part. You are trying to make the rapture into a second coming, when it US who are going to HIM. We're Leaving, he's not coming. We know and hear his voice, and follow him, as I stated in the verse above.



Alright, here you are going to have to prove yourself, because I am not aware of any verse that says that the Church will never leave the earth. I am, however, aware of another one that says it WILL leave the earth. I am going to skip the KJV on this one, because the Old-English is difficult. I'll choose the amplified, but you can choose any version you want to look at.
2 Thes. 2:7-8 "For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until he that restrains is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming."
The phrase "taken out of the way" in the original greek is ek mesos ginomai which is literally translated "out of the middle, or midst, he becomes". Who is restraining the lawlessness and keeping the Antichrist at bay? Is it the Holy Spirit? Absolutely, but we know that the Holy spirit will not be taken out of the midst, otherwise none could be saved after the Antichrist comes to power. This is impossible since we know many are martyred by beheading for refusing to take the mark, and they will be under the Altar of God asking how long before they are avenged until their number is fulfilled. Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be at work saving souls during the tribulation. As a matter of fact, that is the whole point of the tribulation. God's determination to give man one final, undeserved chance to receive his mercy and grace. So then if the Spirit is not taken out of the midst, then who is? The answer, my friend, is the True Church. Those who are worshiping him in Spirit and in Truth until his voice, The Last Trump, calls us to him. In other words, the AGENTS of the Holy Spirit at work in the world today, are the ones who are restraining the lawlessness, and thus, scheduled to be taken out of the midst. Though clearly, that restraint is slipping. Another verse in that same chapter of 2 Thes. tells us that there must be a falling away right before the end.



I have to admit, this last statement disappointed me a little bit. You are obviously as steeped in your belief as I am in mine, yet you claim that I am the one with the pre-supposition. And, though, I will never to claim to know all that the Bible has to say (no one living ever will), or that I am an expert at all, I had thought I was at least well-versed enough to logically, and scripturally support my beliefs utilizing the Full-Counsel of God. Honestly, I find it a little strange that you would engage in an end-times discussion, and then suggest that I overused Revelation, the ultimate end times Book. After all, God Himself declared the end from the beginning. (see Isa. 46:10) Shouldn't we, as imitators of Christ, make ourselves familiar with the end as He set it forth for us? The book testifies of itself in the very first verse that it is The Revelation of Jesus Christ. That alone makes it worth heavy study. And a blessing is promised to all who will read it, hear it, and keep it.

As for the 7 years simply being a symbol of completion, as opposed to a literal 7 years, it inadvisable to assume that things are symbols unless the biblical text makes it clear that it is to be received as a symbol. For example, Rev 4:3 says "And he that sat was to look upon like a Jasper and a sardine stone..." Obviously, this is symbolism. John did not see a couple of pretty rocks sitting on the throne. Furthermore, the bible explains itself when there is a symbol, such as the stars and candle sticks. They are clearly explained as representative of the churches, and the messengers of those churches. But the book of Revelation takes certain steps to ensure that we DO NOT symbolize the length of time discussed. Specifically it gives us the length of time in several different units of measure so that there can be no mistake about their literal meaning. For instance... 3 1/2 years, or one half of the tribulation, is portrayed for us as 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1260 days (this does not add up on our calendar, but it does on the Hebrew calendar), and a time (1 year), times (2 years), and half a time (1/2 a year) (1+2+1/2= 3 1/2)

On the OTHER hand, the 7 churches, while referring to seven actual churches in Asia (not the world) (it nowhere says that there are ONLY 7 churches), IS supposed to refer to divine completion. It refers to the completion of the church age, and concludes right before the Last Trump tells John to "come up hither"(Chapter 3 ends the Church age, Chapter 4 begins with the Rapture) The letters correspond to seven distinct periods in the church age as follows.
Ephesus - The Apostolic Church - until about 100 a.d.
Smyrna - The Martyr Church - 100 - 300 AD (Rome launched 10 deadly perscutions during this time)
Pergamos - The State Church - 300 AD - 500 AD (Constantine endorses Christianity)
Thyatira - The Papal Church - 500 AD and still going. ( ahh, Catholicism)
Sardis - The Reformation Church - 1500 AD and ongoing (Luther)
Philidelphia - Missionary Church - 1800 AD and going (Modern Missions)
Laodicea - The Apostate Church - Look around - slipping restraint

Don't know what you know about history, but look at each of these Christian movements and compare them to the letters written in Revelation. (the dates are obviously rounded, BTW) And while to Ephesus Christ was walking amongst the candlesticks (churches), note that by the time of Laodicea, He is outside the door knocking... just waiting for some individual believer to open the door and let him in. We are truly at the completion of the divine cycle. And how's this for your symbolism of 7?
7 specific churches, 7 messages for ALL churches in all times, and 7 specific church ages. That's 777, the number of God... These letters fulfill all three... now THAT's Divine Completion.

Well, this is a freaking Novel. Hope you made it through to the end.