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rmcdra
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:13 am


To all the people in the guild and particularly in this thread.

I do not want this debate to turn into a "your not a true Christian" cat fight. I respectful ask that I do not see anymore posts in this thread from anyone about a person's Christianhood in question because of the interpretation of the passages concern homosexuality being a sin or not, unless it is in regards to a specific denomination. Gho has already apologized which I commend but we should not expect any apology, we are called to love our enemies just as our neighbors (Matt 5:25). Yes we are going to have different views on how scripture is to be interpreted because we come from different traditions. If a tradition we are from teaches that homosexuality is a sin, we should be respectful of that tradition and likewise we should be respectful of traditions that teach that homosexuality is not a sin. We do not want to be calling each other fools (Matt 5:22).

The founder of this guild and myself welcome other traditions and their views on various topics. So for those of you that hold to traditions that regard homosexuality as a sin, is there any refutations to the claims made against this tradition? As Shaviv has pointed out arguments by age are a logical fallacy but there is another way you can argue it from tradition without saying "because it's been taught this way for so long".
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:33 pm


Ah, this is my first actual post in this guild! Anyway, personally, I've been on the fence for this argument for a while and probably will be so for some more time. It's just that I looked up the previously cited passages and verses. My interpretation is that it's against such acts and not really the person. I don't know, I could just be befuddling my own self. That is just what I got from it. Comments and rebuttals are very much welcomed! sweatdrop

Joji-tan

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rmcdra
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:08 pm


Naomi-Jane
Ah, this is my first actual post in this guild! Anyway, personally, I've been on the fence for this argument for a while and probably will be so for some more time. It's just that I looked up the previously cited passages and verses. My interpretation is that it's against such acts and not really the person. I don't know, I could just be befuddling my own self. That is just what I got from it. Comments and rebuttals are very much welcomed! sweatdrop
That's the stance of most Churches. Though the Episcopal and Evangelical Lutherans, along with some other politically liberal churches will bless homosexual marriages. You might want to see their arguments for blessing these marriages and don't consider these acts sins.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:09 pm


Thank you, rmc and I will!

Joji-tan

Questionable Regular


Aino Ailill

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:42 pm


i like burnination
Gho the Girl
I remember vaguely some mention in the Bible about reaping the whirlwind.

chapter:verse?


Hosea 8:7
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:16 am


Sorry I forgot I was part of this guild, but as I am currently having a confrontation with someone about said topic, am I wrong in saying that sodomite, abuser of mankind, and effiminate not equal homosexual? Correct me if I am wrong, but when sodomy is used in court cases, it is used to describe a**l rapeage. Not a**l sex, but a**l rapeage. Abuser of mankind seems to be anything of abuse...like a dur statement. Damn...i think im too old to be dealing with people who accuse me of taking things out of context but then say they arent... emo

jaden kendam


rmcdra
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:46 pm


jaden kendam
Sorry I forgot I was part of this guild, but as I am currently having a confrontation with someone about said topic, am I wrong in saying that sodomite, abuser of mankind, and effiminate not equal homosexual? Correct me if I am wrong, but when sodomy is used in court cases, it is used to describe a**l rapeage. Not a**l sex, but a**l rapeage. Abuser of mankind seems to be anything of abuse...like a dur statement. Damn...i think im too old to be dealing with people who accuse me of taking things out of context but then say they arent... emo
Here you go for future arguments

Ananel
At your request, we will begin with one of the “Classic” passages in used in modern and medieval accusation of Homosexuality, the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah found in Genesis 18-19. Reference passages that will be important for interpretation of the Scripture are also found in Ezekiel 16:48-50, Jude v 6-7, and also Judges 19-20. Hebrews 13:2 will be referenced, but not in the classical fashion. Rather, it will serve as an illustration of a classic interpretation that bears significant problems.

A useful text to pick up, if you wish to familiarize yourself with an overview of homosexual behavior in the ancient world is Martii Nissinen’s “Homoeroticism in the Biblical World.” It holds a traditional and orthodox stance in general, but posits most issues in an objective and straightforward fashion.

-

On to the actual text. The classical interpretation, and please forgive me for a slight ‘straw man’ here if I get this interpretation wrong in some details. You are welcome to correct me regarding specific nuances. The following elements are found in this interpretation:

1) The angels arrive in secret, their natures unknown to Abraham, Lot or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.
2) The chief sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is sexual perversion, specifically a desire to fornicate with men. This is compounded by other ungodly behaviors, the sum total of which is seen in the assault upon the secreted angels of God, leading to a final judgment of the towns and their subsequent destruction.
3) Only Lot and his family are spared this divine wrath after the pleading and intercession of Abraham with God upon his revelation of his nature.
4) This position is considered to be upheld by an interpretation of Ezekiel 16:48-50 that relies upon the term “To’evah” in Hebrew, citing it as being the same abomination referenced in Leviticus chapters 18 & 20. It further feels that the notion that the Angels are secretly present is upheld by Hebrews 13:2 and considers Jude v 7 to stand behind the notion that the principle sin is a general sexual perversion, noted by most as being homosexuality.

Variations will be found in many cases, and most individuals who I speak with concerning Sodom and Gomorrah are actually unfamiliar with any ‘related’ passages such as Jude, Ezekiel or Hebrews, simply considering it to be rather “obvious” that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is homosexual sex, hence the medieval terminology upheld to the modern era: Sodomy, referencing illegal sex acts (esp Gay a**l sex between men.).

-

The problems with Sodom and Gomorrah:

The following list of issues crops up when interpreting the passage as being a direct condemnation of homosexuality, or even being related to homosexuality itself. The overall picture of the passage, in consideration of the following issues, becomes the condemnation of a deeply depraved, violent and xenophobic region lost in its obeissances to gods that YHWH finds abhorrent, practices that appear to have continued even into the period of Joshua and the Judges, a reality that suits one of the strong motivations for YHWH’s order of the destruction of the Canaanite people, their behavior now falling in line with those of their predecessors… because when the Israelites don’t do it, it appears that it becomes habit forming, nearly leading to the destruction of the tribe of Benjamin.

1) Hebrews 13:1-3, “Keep on loving each other as brothers. Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.” (NIV)

Study Bibles will frequently include references indicating Hebrews 13:2 should be associated with Genesis 19-20. However, there is a distinct difficulty that crops up here. The only major reason for doing so is not found in Hebrews 13, as there is no actual reference to Abraham in that chapter, nor the previous one. Furthermore, the view that the passage in Genesis 19 may indicate a secret does not fly with Genesis 19:3’s choice of terminology for the figures. When addressing the supposedly secret God and angels, Abraham instead refers to the head as “Adonai,” a term which technically may have a meaning as a human superior of high authority, and which is listed by the Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon as the single ‘uncertainty’ case among the vowel pointings of the noun (p 11). However, given the context of the passage, and the fact that all three are revealing miraculous signs of their authority immediately, and no reference is made to them concealing their nature at any point, it seems unlikely and even completely inappropriate to view this as being a human sense to the term. Technically, it is possible, but doing so may be related to a very real problem:

http://appliedmythology.com/baucis.html

Rabbinical traditions, in the period of the Sadducees’ rise in prominence, gained some linkage to Roman and Grecian philosophical thought. Though I cannot recall the specific citations from the Talmud or Midrash, if there are any, it is my view that it is incidents such as Baucis which lead mid/late rabbinical writings pre-Christ to interpret this event as a “Secret Visitation.” However, given that among the first acts of the angels in Sodom and Gomorrah is the mass blinding (19:11) of the mob of Sodom, given that “Adonai” is also used to refer to non-human divinity by Lot upon meeting them, it becomes increasingly unlikely that anyone is unfamiliar with their nature. The simple usage of “men” or “Anoshim” is a base pronoun which may indicate easily “the people,” (BDB 60) either indicating a non gendered referent to those as yet unseen, or a pronoun referent not showing strong concern with gender. What this means is that, if the classic view that this is a “Secret Visit” stems from rabbinical teaching that shows signs of pagan influence, this interpretation is subject to a mingled and false teaching towards both separate traditions. This visitation is nothing like Baucis’ visitation by Zeus and Hermes or any similar incident, though both are used as moral lessons in their respective tradition, and mingling the two is foolish regarding both religions.

2) Jude 7’s use to link Sodom and Gomorrah to gay sex becomes extremely problematic when it is considered within the context of the full passage, especially the preceding verse: “And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” (Jude 6-7, NIV)

The first half of this passage, the actual greek showing no splitting of sentences clearly, is linked to the others as being a similar incident. While it does not specify the linkage directly, the incident in v 6 relates to Genesis 6, and the account of the book of Enoch, cited also in verses 14-15 directly. The account regards a band of angels who took human women for wives, had monstrous children and were punished, just as Jude mentions, bound in chains until the end of time, their condemnation given to them by Enoch (refer to the Book of Enoch for details of the account if you like). This incident, having two singularly distinct individual bodies (Angels with human women and a mob attacking angelic guests who are likely not hiding their natures.), makes it unlikely that this is a referent to gay sex as the issue. If anything, the condemnation regards these incidents as similar and the only clear linkage is not only sexual impropriety but the congress of the divine with humanity, the mingling of the base with the ‘holy.’ This is stated in connection with a reminder that God destroyed the unbelievers, those who showed no faith in him, an accusation both to the rebellious angels of Enoch’s tale and to the vengeful Sodomites.

3) Ezekiel 16:48-50, “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done. "'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”
I cannot count the number of times that “Detestable things” has immediately been returned to me, with the citation that it is “To’ebah,” the same term used in Leviticus 18 & 20 as a descriptor for homosexual sex in the context of the sex cults of the Canaanite people. There are two basic problems with any interpretation that forcibly says which of the various abominations this ‘must be.’ The first is straightforward. The context of the passage does not appear to deal with sexual congress as the specific sinful behavior being noted here. Arrogance, haughtiness, cruelty to the poor and needy, are the issues, followed by the general note of detestable things. Moving swiftly to gay sex is a stretch at best, and bespeaks a 20th century re-insertion, given the current political climate and a desperate move to silence a potential problem, namely the second issue: What constitutes a To’ebah.

The list of things that are an Abomination to YHWH (BDB, 1072-1073): ‘Unclean Food (Deut 14:3), Worshippers of Idols (Is 41:24), Child Sacrifice (Deut 12: 31), Idolatrous Practices (Deut 13:15 & 17:4, Ez 16:50 & 18:2, Malachi 2:11), Idolatrous Objects (2 Chronicles 34:33),’ … among these and other sundry false practices are included the violations of chapters 18 & 20 of Leviticus, the sexual improprieties of the surrounding people, related to their worship practices (as mentioned in 1 Kings). However, it’s worth noting that idolatrous practices are viewed as being linked at least by several key scholars (hence the BDB reference to it) as being the source of “To’ebah” in Sodom and Gomorrah (see reference above).
The sins listed in Ezekiel 16:48-50 indicate that Israel, being condemned for behavior worse than those cities, is given Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of hideous behavior they have surpassed, hideous behavior that appears to have nothing to do specifically with gay sex.

Which leads us to… what exactly was going on?

5) Open up Judges, chapters 19-20, the tale of the Benjamites. This is, by far, the least referenced tale in the judges, and one that is brushed over and with good reason. It is noxious and deeply unpleasant. However, I’ll give you the basic gist:

A Levite goes to reclaim his unfaithful concubine.
On the way back, they choose to stop in Gibeah, as it is an Israelite city.
An old man insists the two stay in his house, rather than the square.
A mob of Benjamites descends, demanding exactly what the people of Sodom did before.
The old man offered his daughter, which was refused, along with the concubine.
The Levite threw his concubine out at them, and they raped her until she died.
He tore up her body into little bloody pieces and sent them to the various tribes.
They descended on the tribe of Benjamin with a brutal vengeance, nearly decimating them.
Ultimately, wives had to be afforded the few remaining Benjaminites by the surrounding tribes so that they were not lost forever.

Here’s the rub: The incident is almost the same, and in readings of incidents such as these it becomes clearer what this behavior is, especially in light of Ezekiel 16:48-50 – Xenophobia. The Canaanite people (citation lacking) were known for this sort of behavioral problem. Tribal to their core, they attacked each other constantly, assaulting the various other tribes and cities, raping their enemies to prove that they were the dominant force (there are several Grecian urns from the Peloponnesian War depicting the Greeks doing the same thing to the defeated Persians. Quite graphic, cited in Nissinen’s work.).

Sodom and Gomorrah? These cities were arrogant, horrendously anti-YHWH, worshipping their false gods (likely the Ba’al and Asherah cults referenced throughout the Bible, largely local fertility cults known for child sacrifice, child prostitution and prostitution cultism, referenced as such by Scripture on numerous occasions.). They were cruel to their poor and needy, and so horrendously depraved that, when guests entered their city, they formed a mob and demanded the right to rape them.

And one day, God told the people of Israel that Canaan’s sins were great enough to destroy them, to require that destruction, for the sake of Israel’s very souls. They didn’t destroy them, and oh look… the Benjamites did the same thing that the people of Sodom did. The fact that they happily raped a woman to death is proof enough that this wasn’t about them being gay.

This was not about gay sex. It was about a cruel, vindictive and horrible pair of cities who brutalized their neighbors and citizens, violating and proving that they were the chiefs of all. It had everything to do with an arrogant, vile and horrid people who were themselves fully against all that YHWH wished His people to hold dear.

-

However… nowadays… it’s all about the gay schmex.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:20 pm


if you want to worry about sexual immorality, let's start wioth adultery first.

over against the scant references to possible homosexuality in the bible, which may be included because they refer to pagan worship and so on, weigh up the hundreds of condemnations of adultery!

let churches clear up this obvious problem experienced by many of their members and clergy, and then i will take them more seriously on the gay sex indictments.

but of course that will never happen. it's so much easier to condemn somebody for a "sin" you are not practicing yourself.

chessiejo


rmcdra
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:05 pm


chessiejo
if you want to worry about sexual immorality, let's start wioth adultery first.

over against the scant references to possible homosexuality in the bible, which may be included because they refer to pagan worship and so on, weigh up the hundreds of condemnations of adultery!

let churches clear up this obvious problem experienced by many of their members and clergy, and then i will take them more seriously on the gay sex indictments.

but of course that will never happen. it's so much easier to condemn somebody for a "sin" you are not practicing yourself.
Exactly
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:57 pm


i have gay, lesbian, and bisexual friends who've turned to atheism (prob. as a result of the hate speech preached by the far right and Christian churches). They were raised Christian or Jewish by their families, but didn't agree with the idea that an otherwise loving God would condemn them for their sexuality. Sometimes, they ask me my thoughts. I try no to answer because I was raised never to discuss 3 things in public--1)religion 2)sex 3) politics. And this is one of those issues that falls under all three.

I probably never answered because I always had a non-stance, waiting to be swayed either way. Over time I've accepted that because the Bible does not explicitly condemn it and because my understanding of the Bible isn't in depth on a scholarly level, I've encompassed it under the "probable sin" category". Not all my Christian friends get it, but I believe in a God that doesn't want to condemn his creations. We call Him Father, and I know some Earthly parents who would defend their child even when convicted and persecuted as a criminal by their peers (sounds like a certain Savior?). So, if this is truly genetic, or not a conscious decision made like what to wear, then God loves homosexuals.

However, if one day an archeologist found a lost book of the Bible or other text with words spoken by Biblical Prophets or Jesus himself explicitly saying homosexuality or perversions of heterosexuality is a sin, then it is. BUT, that does NOT change that fact that dozens of times in the Bible we are called to love our neighbors, not to pass judgment upon them, and forgive sinners (i.e. everyone) for the sins they commit against us (though I'm not sure how homosexuality is a sin against me).

So, if homosexuality is a sin, it is a sin that is to be reckoned between the sinner and God, and as a Christian I should not shame, hate, or pass judgment on any individual under any conditions because I, too, am a sinner an when my Judgment comes I'll have to reckon those sins with my God equally. Though personally, I don't see the victim in the case of homosexuality as I do in the Ten Commandments and so do not view it as a sin. I could be wrong, though, because I'm not God. I will certainly ask him that whenever I finally meet him, though I'm sure he's had to answer that question Trillions of times ^_^.

Gjornia X


joeking231
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:50 pm


Ok here's my two cents. Please fogive me but I ask alot of questions of you, plaese think them out throughly.

I belive that a real working, loving, caring relationship should never be critized by anyone. To back this up I draw on the ten comandments specificly the second most important comandment besides love thy god. This comandment is more important than every other ever written in the bible (besides love thy god) as spoken by Jesus in Mark 12:28-31. Love thy neighbor as yourself.

It is a very simple sintence that may change in length but still hold the same defintion through all translations of the Bible. The meaning is simple itself. WE NEED TO LOVE EVERYONE. I see nothing excusing gay from this, so does the act of refusing to let other love show it inself a act of love? Does going out carrying picket signs and screaming to remove some of their rights a act of love?

I've seen gay being screamed at and pointed at by pastors in the middle of a service, is that a act of love? Is that going to lead them the a loving walk with Christ? I was 14, and I still cried at the shamful sight.

Speaking of Christ, what would he do? Where would he spend his time? Would he spend his time screaming at the center of a stage telling us to hate the gays? Or would he be out their like he was for the sinner and tax collecters, loving them beyone the scope of our puny human reasoning?

I think you know the anwser.

Go ahead and bring in rebutal. I've thought long and hard on this, I'd love to see where I've missed in my psycological quandrys. Tell me what is more important than a kind respectful love, for it's the same as telling God whats more important than his love.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:52 am


yeah many of us here believe that homosexuality is not a sin and have refuted the interpretations of passages suggesting that it is.

rmcdra
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joeking231
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:19 pm


rmcdra
yeah many of us here believe that homosexuality is not a sin and have refuted the interpretations of passages suggesting that it is.

I've met alot of people who gained this veiw out of reading certain passages out of context. They don't relize that words themselves don't mean much, but the stroys behind it hold a deep meaning.
For intance, the verse concerning gays in Leviticus, that I get bashed over my head often, was only written because the people demanded that God give them laws. That aside most theologians disfavor the book as they are very sure that Moses didn't write the book like it is said.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:22 pm


joeking231
I've met alot of people who gained this veiw out of reading certain passages out of context. They don't relize that words themselves don't mean much, but the stroys behind it hold a deep meaning.
Exactly 3nodding

I do not mean this in disrespect but are you a mystic or were you raised in a mystic tradition of Christianity?
Quote:
For intance, the verse concerning gays in Leviticus, that I get bashed over my head often, was only written because the people demanded that God give them laws. That aside most theologians disfavor the book as they are very sure that Moses didn't write the book like it is said.
Well despite the authorship issue, there's also verses in the New Testament showing how Leviticus doesn't apply to us Gentile Christians. Acts 15 and Hebrew 7 are the Books and Chapters coming to mind concerning how Leviticus laws don't apply to us.

rmcdra
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joeking231
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:54 pm


rmcdra
joeking231
I've met alot of people who gained this veiw out of reading certain passages out of context. They don't relize that words themselves don't mean much, but the stroys behind it hold a deep meaning.
Exactly 3nodding

I do not mean this in disrespect but are you a mystic or were you raised in a mystic tradition of Christianity?
Quote:
For intance, the verse concerning gays in Leviticus, that I get bashed over my head often, was only written because the people demanded that God give them laws. That aside most theologians disfavor the book as they are very sure that Moses didn't write the book like it is said.
Well despite the authorship issue, there's also verses in the New Testament showing how Leviticus doesn't apply to us Gentile Christians. Acts 15 and Hebrew 7 are the Books and Chapters coming to mind concerning how Leviticus laws don't apply to us.

There are others, but the fact of the matter is that God made us to love one another. I call into question any scipture telling me hate, because I know thats not of God.

And I'm no mystic, I just relized something one day.

If everyone loved one another like Jesus did there this world would not have any problems.

If that all we need why do we have all these laws in religion that force us to hate and to treat people a certain way?

One had to be right and the other wrong. I chose love as truth and though it's been harder I have no regrets. It will be harder as I go on and the devil will fight me tooth and nail, but that doesn't matter, I have God.
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