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 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:50 pm
goldbrease V.H. Griffin Chan goldbrease V.H. Griffin Chan well gel let me teach a bit of history, the greatest nations of the world where forge by armies and war, USA, where forged by Washington and his independence, teh same for Mexico, created by Hidalgo and his insurgents, China as we know it was made by Mao Tse Tsung, I can go on with the list but the post will extend quite a lot.... (can yah tell me japan?) well yes... they also where forged in wars...tough Im not sure how it happened... stare I guess some shogunates fought to the end until they decided to join and create japan every country has they own wars trough history and mos tof them where forged by war.... k thanks. you re welcome
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:51 pm
((Well Jason, I'm toying with the idea of a low profile AFV, consisiting of a turret housing an auto-loader for a large gun, along with the gun and assorted targeting systems, and positions for 2 crew members, a gunner with video connection to the turret, able to control it via Joystick and goggley things, and a driver. With little to no armor, the vechile would be obscenely fast, hard to spot, hard to hit, and capable of delievering brutal strikes from a distance. Of course, it's easy bait for a decent platoon of infrantry, but that's what combined arms are for.
And Chan, I know, I know. I've taken down about six mechas at Raven Squadron, or whatever it was, with slow moving, heavily armored tanks with Naval Guns mounted on them, and roughly WWII Era fighters, because I out fought them. Problem is, I know little about mechas, so I'll be learning on my feet, much like real officers. Meh. Like I said, very few problems that Rocket Fighters can't handle; I'm fond of the old ME163 Komet, which was capable of outflying and out fighting all the Allies had, and was designed to fly with a simple, primitive rocket. Same design, upgraded system, and I have me an obscenely fast fighter for little cost. Cheap, effective, yet sadly limited in use, as it can't perform beyond a fight role, or crashing into stuff.
No matter. I'll learn on my feet.))
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:57 pm
Josef Gafencu ((Well Jason, I'm toying with the idea of a low profile AFV, consisiting of a turret housing an auto-loader for a large gun, along with the gun and assorted targeting systems, and positions for 2 crew members, a gunner with video connection to the turret, able to control it via Joystick and goggley things, and a driver. With little to no armor, the vechile would be obscenely fast, hard to spot, hard to hit, and capable of delievering brutal strikes from a distance. Of course, it's easy bait for a decent platoon of infrantry, but that's what combined arms are for.
And Chan, I know, I know. I've taken down about six mechas at Raven Squadron, or whatever it was, with slow moving, heavily armored tanks with Naval Guns mounted on them, and roughly WWII Era fighters, because I out fought them. Problem is, I know little about mechas, so I'll be learning on my feet, much like real officers. Meh. Like I said, very few problems that Rocket Fighters can't handle; I'm fond of the old ME163 Komet, which was capable of outflying and out fighting all the Allies had, and was designed to fly with a simple, primitive rocket. Same design, upgraded system, and I have me an obscenely fast fighter for little cost. Cheap, effective, yet sadly limited in use, as it can't perform beyond a fight role, or crashing into stuff.
No matter. I'll learn on my feet.)) ((In fact we all have learned on our feets...I remeber my time as Newbie...geezz that was hard... anyway as piece of advise OCC, your antimech tanks will have dificulties figthing Varitechs as most of them are armed with SRM, quite fast and for light armored tanks...well they are deadly))
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:01 pm
((Yes, SRMs are deadly. Problem is, of course, range. If I spot you at the edge of a field, at a mile away, my small tank can probaly hit you several times with a 170mm gun, do massive damage, and pull off before you can close. However, if you find me at that half that range, my tanks are probaly, well, dead.
So a word of advice OOC from me - I believe range is quiet possibly the most vital attribute for any weapon, surpassing even power and accuracy in importance. No reason I can't have all three on most of my guns though, eh?))
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:02 pm
V.H. Griffin Chan Josef Gafencu ((Well Jason, I'm toying with the idea of a low profile AFV, consisiting of a turret housing an auto-loader for a large gun, along with the gun and assorted targeting systems, and positions for 2 crew members, a gunner with video connection to the turret, able to control it via Joystick and goggley things, and a driver. With little to no armor, the vechile would be obscenely fast, hard to spot, hard to hit, and capable of delievering brutal strikes from a distance. Of course, it's easy bait for a decent platoon of infrantry, but that's what combined arms are for.
And Chan, I know, I know. I've taken down about six mechas at Raven Squadron, or whatever it was, with slow moving, heavily armored tanks with Naval Guns mounted on them, and roughly WWII Era fighters, because I out fought them. Problem is, I know little about mechas, so I'll be learning on my feet, much like real officers. Meh. Like I said, very few problems that Rocket Fighters can't handle; I'm fond of the old ME163 Komet, which was capable of outflying and out fighting all the Allies had, and was designed to fly with a simple, primitive rocket. Same design, upgraded system, and I have me an obscenely fast fighter for little cost. Cheap, effective, yet sadly limited in use, as it can't perform beyond a fight role, or crashing into stuff.
No matter. I'll learn on my feet.)) ((In fact we all have learned on our feets...I remeber my time as Newbie...geezz that was hard... anyway as piece of advise OCC, your antimech tanks will have dificulties figthing Varitechs as most of them are armed with SRM, quite fast and for light armored tanks...well they are deadly)) (as well a mobile suit who keeps moveing would be very hard to hit because there not that slow.... well most arn't...)
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:05 pm
Josef Gafencu ((Yes, SRMs are deadly. Problem is, of course, range. If I spot you at the edge of a field, at a mile away, my small tank can probaly hit you several times with a 170mm gun, do massive damage, and pull off before you can close. However, if you find me at that half that range, my tanks are probaly, well, dead.
So a word of advice OOC from me - I believe range is quiet possibly the most vital attribute for any weapon, surpassing even power and accuracy in importance. No reason I can't have all three on most of my guns though, eh?)) (did you take into account that cannons fire at an arc not sraight? as well as if you or your bud rp multiple tanks that not eevry tank will have the exact same acuracy. plus it takes time to load the gun.)
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:08 pm
((It would be cannon fodder against any modern vehicle includeing a Bradley IFV ... TOW 2 missiles are b*tch... heck a the new Predator lightweight anti-tank missile fired from an infantryman against an unarmored vehicle would core it without a second thought, and a LOSAT would send it end over end atleast five times from 4km away... Ive decided I'll leave descriptions to modern tech just so as to help explain things, and not confuse thigns with post modern tech.
No armor isnt the answer... then your susceptable to things like RPG-7's ( IRAQ anyone? Stryker's are not the best armoured but they are decently equipped but are still rolling coffins agaisnt RPG's) A large gun is actually LESS efficent then a smaller higher velocity gun. Where as yes most MBT's have a 120mm gun as their main armament, most tank hunters have a 105mm HV gun.
A command operated turrent with auto-loader is a good choice, though; saves weight, increase crew survivablility, etc. but as for the hard to hit, hard to see, your still thinking in WWII terms... Modern day FLIR will amke the thing stand out like a bloody latern int he night, and during the day it will still be FLIR desceranble, or laser targeted via ground troops. This is of course not even getting into things like pulse lasers where a corresponding mecha can put out HUNDREDS of pulses per minute of damageing photons at over 300,000 miles per second... hitting really isnt the problem here, aim is... at which point it will slice through the armor litterally like a hot knife through butter.
As I've said before there are many a modern tech way around all those 'nifty' advantages mecha have, most of which can be turned against it without much of a fight, but its not really my place to help in such manners... xd ))
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:12 pm
goldbrease Josef Gafencu ((Yes, SRMs are deadly. Problem is, of course, range. If I spot you at the edge of a field, at a mile away, my small tank can probaly hit you several times with a 170mm gun, do massive damage, and pull off before you can close. However, if you find me at that half that range, my tanks are probaly, well, dead.
So a word of advice OOC from me - I believe range is quiet possibly the most vital attribute for any weapon, surpassing even power and accuracy in importance. No reason I can't have all three on most of my guns though, eh?)) (did you take into account that cannons fire at an arc not sraight? as well as if you or your bud rp multiple tanks that not eevry tank will have the exact same acuracy. plus it takes time to load the gun.)
Well, that's one good thing about mechas; they're very hard to miss, visually, well trained-ly, and if they're slow, artillery.))
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:15 pm
((please just edit your previous post if you'd like to add another point saves room on the page. secondly most modern anti-tank guns fire directly, otherwise it would be a howitzer, or a mortar. Artillery or cannons are split into three main classes. Gun= realtively flat trajectory. Mortar= high arc of fire. Howitzer= a comprimise on the mortar, and gun, fireing a shallow arc which has both range and AoA advatages over both.))
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:24 pm
(at this rate yah might turn this threads anme to weaponry talk instead of talk abotu a country. doesn't realy look good for a counmtry's thread to ahve a bunch of posts like this.
i could go on more about the advantages of mecha but i'll keep it a secret. even though all ooc data you ahve is not suposted to be used ic. thou ive noticed alot of the time it is used.
well i'm going to turn in i'm tired night.)
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:26 pm
Jason A. Delacroix ((It would be cannon fodder against any modern vehicle includeing a Bradley IFV ... TOW 2 missiles are b*tch... heck a the new Predator lightweight anti-tank missile fired from an infantryman against an unarmored vehicle would core it without a second thought, and a LOSAT would send it end over end atleast five times from 4km away... Ive decided I'll leave descriptions to modern tech just so as to help explain things, and not confuse thigns with post modern tech. Quote: Individual boxes help. I know Infrantry AT is brutal, and I know my armor is weak to them, but fact of the matter is, it's what I've got to use. Armor is a factor that can change; if I'm right, most AT missles use HEAT style warheads, and I'm currently puzzling over, and somewhat researching, a way to halt them. I'm thinking heavy frontal armor could work, at least against a few AT weapons, as that's always useful, not to mention it would help with balance issues of having a heavy gun positioned right over the rear, and would shift the center of gravity foward more. That, or figure out a new type of armor. Or research. No armor isnt the answer... then your susceptable to things like RPG-7's ( IRAQ anyone? Stryker's are not the best armoured but they are decently equipped but are still rolling coffins agaisnt RPG's) A large gun is actually LESS efficent then a smaller higher velocity gun. Where as yes most MBT's have a 120mm gun as their main armament, most tank hunters have a 105mm HV gun. Quote: Don't sk00l me on Velocity boy, I know all about that. During WWII the Panthers HV 75 was actually more lethal than the Tiger's feared 88mm. For armament, I think a large caliber, high velocity gun could work. A compromise like this would make a rotating turret highly, well, not all that bright. The strain and size issues of a 170mm HV gun are massive. By making the thing broader, I don't increase frontal profile as much, although side profile goes through the roof, and the turret become able to handle a slightly larger gun. Once more, more research ist needed. A command operated turrent with auto-loader is a good choice, though; saves weight, increase crew survivablility, etc. but as for the hard to hit, hard to see, your still thinking in WWII terms... Modern day FLIR will amke the thing stand out like a bloody latern int he night, and during the day it will still be FLIR desceranble, or laser targeted via ground troops. This is of course not even getting into things like pulse lasers where a corresponding mecha can put out HUNDREDS of pulses per minute of damageing photons at over 300,000 miles per second... hitting really isnt the problem here, aim is... at which point it will slice through the armor litterally like a hot knife through butter. Quote: Lasers, well, from my playing of Mech Warrior, there are way to stop teh Lasers with special armor. More research is need, of course. I have no clue what FLIP stands for, but if it's infrared, it can be fooled. Cheap tricks, of course, firing flares right at the opposition, are nothing more than a quick fix, but it's an idea. Of course, you must also assume I'll have at least mildly similar technology, and my odds of hitting a moving house are better them then hitting a moving Buick. As I've said before there are many a modern tech way around all those 'nifty' advantages mecha have, most of which can be turned against it without much of a fight, but its not really my place to help in such manners... xd ))
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:49 am
((While Josef is quite the specialist on military equipment and tactics, I specialize in quieter, under-the-surface parts of warfare not related to blowing s**t up. Politics, economics, supplies, public opinion. When it comes to battle, I go for confusion and secrecy, guerilla tactics and distractions. I've always says that if one of my friends conquers a small country and makes himself the facist ruler (you'd understand if you knew him) I'd be his assistant who helps him in non-explosive government matters.
Since my character involved in Westphalia is Kyetino, and the only one of my characters to really carry the same tactical tendencies as me is Jimen, I'll hafta limit my tactical contribution to OOC suggestions and plans; but Kyetino makes one hell of a distraction and Josef's got a big force so it all works out okay. There'd be no trouble getting small forces into Gaia's borders, and then chaos shall reign supreme.))
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:12 am
((1. Not all missiles use HEAT style warheads anymore... actually the most effective are standoff EFP's (smaller more efficent, and detonate about a meter away from the vehicle leaving only the hypersonic solidifying copper slug to penetrate the armor.) This means more energy is actually focused against the penetrator instead of the uselessly agasint the remaining warhead caseing, and the non penetrated armor of the target. Theres are also HESH warheads that are more effective on heavy armor as they litterally squish against the outer face before exploding sending shockwaves through the armor and causeing scales and bits of the inner armor to break off and bounce around at high velocities inside the vehicle turnign the crew to putting. Then there are things like FCG's (Flux Compression Generators) and HPM(High Power Microwave) Devices that emit a non nuclear Electromagnetic pulse frying a tanks circuitry leaving the crew unharmed, but the vehicle dead. Then we move onto things like Nuetron Bombs, or dual stage nuetron penetrators both of which have been built since the late 60's but are needless to say a nasty nasty weapon and totally inhumane...
and theres more than just solid slat steel armor these days...
2. Consider the size requirements ofthe gun system on a Le Clerc MBT of France... 120mm smoothbore autoloading, about as compact a system as your going to get... Now double it in mass and decrease its ammunition storage by 3/4ths. This will give you a rough idea how MASSSIVE a 170mm HV gun would be, and how logistically tight that system would have to fit in with... so unless your useing a ETC or binary Hypergolic propulsion youve got very little ammo (defeating the true advantage of an autoloader which is it can usually put more rounds down range than a hand loader.) and I havent gotten to the fact your need atleast a 52- 60 caliber gun to get the velocity needed. Thats a helluva long barrel if your not familiar with calculating caliber lengths. So yeah youd have to mount it towards the back of the now tracked (im not seeing a wheeled vehicle with that much encumbrance move that fast exscpecially in swamp and marsh as you stated.) vehicle...
Theres a reason light and fast craft have smaller guns... its so they can maintain ideal ballance for their transmission and still put decent lead on target.
Big gun + long bodyframe to compensate= weight + big engine
Big engine= lots of required fuel + More Weight
More Weight + Fuel= EVEN More weight
EVEN More weight + ammo= Much More weight
so... it equals Weight+ More Weight + EVEN More Weight + Much More Weight= heavy, slow, and lumbering...
you put a big gun, on a long body, and expect to still be fleet of foot, and your going to soon find out what you have is one car of a land train...
3. Last I checked making a vehicle reflective or partially reflective can defeat most non-variable wavelength laser systems. However it also means your basically chromeing a tank and making it the biggest & most visible day time target imaginable. Yes IR can be fooled, but theres a few problems with fooling IR.. ( nine times out of ten, the air surrounding a target will be cooler than the IR supressing paint used to coat the target, so the target stills tand out, it just wont be a beacon, and if youve chromed it there goes IR supression, now its totally thermaly conductive and will stand out at night as well. Flares at night means your visible to anything not useing FLIR... from over a mile away....)
4. I assume nothing. I know you know your vehicles but what your trying to do here will most likely quickly sink into your own native soil...
Want to take out a mech? look into Gerlich, and 'Little John' system barrels of WWII. A 128mm is about as large as you would need to go to litterally rip the leg off a mech...
as a side note please do not use l33t/net speak around me or I'll start personally removeing it myself... the only time u = you is when the value of u is zero...
Just so you and everyone knows the only reason im continueing this discussion is I happen to love tech discussions blaugh xd heart Also at no point do I intend to sound condecending or rude, its just hard to transfer the good natured smile on my face while I type without seeming too cheery, or well sacastic sweatdrop and... well... I just pain hate net/leet speak... sweatdrop
What I meant to say was; Josef when your ready to start setting up the nation in a multipost fashion just PM me and I can have this errata disappear for you so you can start setting up here.))
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:20 pm
((Okay, I'll effectively ignore most of the above, as I'm clueless at it. I love armor, it's an excellent resource, but my heart style goes with the foot troopers. Partially explains my ignorance on this sort of thing.
Taper bore principle? I knew about it, but it didn't quite click. Pretty effective, I know that much, and it allowed the relatively small 28mm Panzerjaeger guns issued to Paratroopers to kill fairly large tanks. Hmm. Obscene love for WWII + Knowledge = Wh0a. Useful thing to know.
Oh, and 128mm would be enough to rip off a Mecha's leg? So that's were my trouble's been. Most people I've fought against with mechs are like, "Hah! Your puny Gun does nothing to me!", so I jacked up gun sizes accordingly. But if a 128mm could take of a leg, I might as well and procede to upgrade a lot of my Inf. weapons, as I believe I could come up with a design capable of dropping a Mecha, or at least a suitable AT gun that I could easily conceal. Of course, this dosen't mean I'll stop IC development of armor, or come up with perfect Mecha killers, as that would be cheap. I have a feeling that if, and when, we do meet on the field, I'll have a few spectacular successes, and a few horrible failures.
Eh, and nevermind the OOC, I rather enjoy it. If the almighty Tanasha permits it, we could just keep this open for random OOC relating to Westphalia, once the main thread is up. Oh, and mein little bit of netspeak, just deal. sweatdrop It's not much, and I type how I speak. A few lieks or tehs aren't going to kill you...
...I hope.))
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:17 pm
(how does everyone like my new look? just whondering.)
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