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 Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:12 pm
lymelady divineseraph Wat? Strawmen up the a** in here. Accepting casualties in war is not like accepting deaths from cancer or car crashes. You are misrepresenting me to make my argument more manageable, and I don't appreciate it. You know what you did wrong there. No, LEGALLY it is a fetus. Scientific analysis and objective observation will clearly and obviously show you that a 7-9 month human inside a womb and a 7-9 month fetus outside a womb are the same thing. It will, coincidentally, also be the same if it is in a box or a boat. The difference is that this is even LESS acceptable because of the obvious and clear fact that the child can simply be removed alive- In a war scenario, it's like simply bombing a city rather than taking out the civilians, even though the situation allows for it to be done quite easily. Not that first trimester abortion is acceptable, but it gets worse when the alternatives are so close and the pain is obvious. There is no excuse for this. Not much. I simply believe that people who hold no regard for the pain of the innocent, and commit crimes against them, without remorse, and will continue to do so, deserve to die painfully. Of course, only in extreme cases such as this, or hitler or osama or Dahmer, so forth. No, they're both doing what you said: Accepting innocent pain sadly. That's what you said was repulsive. "I feel it is better to enjoy the pain of the wicked than sadly accept the pain of the innocent." <-Kate quotes Divine. No, PHYSIOLOGICALLY it is a fetus. Try having a born baby live in a sac filled with amniotic fluid and get back to me on it. I call choicers on it when they use faulty science because their emotions get in the way, I am certainly going to call you on it because I don't need to lie about facts to justify my position. It doesn't matter whether you call it a fetus or a baby, even if a third trimester fetus is a fetus, it does not make it less of a baby since baby isn't even a scientific term and that you think it does make it less of a baby is sad. I do not see it as less acceptable because for me, waiting a few months to get to viability and give birth (which would be dangerous for the baby, by the way, viability means 50% survival rate with support from machines and no doctor is going to induce labor at 7 months unless it's an absolute emergency) is not onerous enough to justify killing anyone. If it is to you, again, you're entitled to your beliefs. Do you honestly think most people who get third trimester abortions do it because "Oh we just don't want a baby right now?" That's a sidenote, but it seems like you do. I'm sorry I was mistaken, I thought you'd said at one point that you were Christian but not in a particular religion because you disagree with the institution of religion. It makes it much easier to understand your views on hell knowing this. ...As a result of your actions, not as a result of life. And remove it from the sac, and what do you have? A pear? A still-fetus? What if you take the whole sac out of the mother? Is it still a fetus? What if it's just dipped into the fluid? Or a toe is still in the vaginal opening? To quote PtH, "Every word that is written will fall short of it's intent- even sung or spoke or screamed, they will betray what they have meant, language is the heart's lament" Point being, scientific language is still language, which is not truly objective. Baby, child, human, fetus, person, being, animal, flesh, carbon based life form- It doesn't really MEAN anything to attach labels. It is what is is what it is, and law and language will not change it. If they would remove it far enough to remove everything else and crush the skull, why the hell can't they simply take the rest out alive? It's a bullshit argument. Even if a 7 month baby has a slim chance, it's significantly more of a chance than one with a crushed skull. After viability, there is really no excuse aside from absolute death of the mother. That's it. I am a fan of Dante, Descartes and many of the teachings of Christ. I just don't like the insane things some christians do in the name of him, or the pointless dogma and chanting. I would assume hell to be reserved for those who allowed greed or pride or apathy to get to them to the extent that they would be willing to harm the innocent for personal gain, either through exploitation or outright assault. Lyme edit: As I said, continue this elsewhere. I left this in case you were typing it while I made my post, but the next one was entirely irrelevant.
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:36 pm
Right, yeah. This isn't all old arguments, but if we're going to have a drawn out discussion, someone should make a thread in the Extended Discussion subforum. And I think we probably should make our personal argument more private, since it's a little more heated, and would probably be uncomfortable for the newbies.
This is your guild now, after all. Most of the oldbies are dead. So if ya'll newbies want to debate it, strike up a thread in the ED subforum.
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:35 pm
I.Am Right, yeah. This isn't all old arguments, but if we're going to have a drawn out discussion, someone should make a thread in the Extended Discussion subforum. And I think we probably should make our personal argument more private, since it's a little more heated, and would probably be uncomfortable for the newbies. This is your guild now, after all. Most of the oldbies are dead. So if ya'll newbies want to debate it, strike up a thread in the ED subforum. OMG did they get shot?! I personally am bothered by this issue. No one should be heralding this, but fingers still get pointed at people as though they are proud of what has transpired. I have heard that Tiller has taken 60,000 fetuses. That's a scary number. Tiller is, at least, a law-abiding citizen whose life was illegally, and prematurely ended. He is not a Hero. One is daft for thinking otherwise.
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:58 pm
...Que? Quote: I personally am bothered by this issue. No one should be heralding this, but fingers still get pointed at people as though they are proud of what has transpired. True, but Divine does actually seem to be glad that this has happened. I don't think that sort of attitude should be supported by Pro-Lifers in general. It is a very dangerous attitude, and the kind of thing that gets us labeled as extremists. People jumping to conclusions may result in some bad feelings, but from a damage control side of things... That's better than the extremists getting their say, and the normal Pro-Lifers just ignoring them. Quote: I have heard that Tiller has taken 60,000 fetuses. That's a scary number. Tiller is, at least, a law-abiding citizen whose life was illegally, and prematurely ended. He is not a Hero. One is daft for thinking otherwise. Absolutely true.
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:47 pm
kp is dcvi I.Am Right, yeah. This isn't all old arguments, but if we're going to have a drawn out discussion, someone should make a thread in the Extended Discussion subforum. And I think we probably should make our personal argument more private, since it's a little more heated, and would probably be uncomfortable for the newbies. This is your guild now, after all. Most of the oldbies are dead. So if ya'll newbies want to debate it, strike up a thread in the ED subforum. OMG did they get shot?! I personally am bothered by this issue. No one should be heralding this, but fingers still get pointed at people as though they are proud of what has transpired. I have heard that Tiller has taken 60,000 fetuses. That's a scary number. Tiller is, at least, a law-abiding citizen whose life was illegally, and prematurely ended. He is not a Hero. One is daft for thinking otherwise. Some people are borderline proud. It's a vocal minority, but we know all about vocal minorities. Let's face it, there is no abortionist hated in America more than George Tiller was. He yelled at women who were distressed and crying that they were killing their babies, he guilted women into going through with procedures when they changed their mind, he performed abortions when the baby had things like down syndrome or cleft pallet, he's had the disgust of the American pro-life movement pointed on him since the very start. We can't pretend there is no one who is proud, because it's inevitable. It happens with every group. If Jill Stanek got killed for her pro-life advocacy, there would certainly be pro-choice people who reacted the same way that some pro-life people are reacting to Tiller. So...while it's not the majority, it's certainly happening. Perhaps fingers are pointed too readily, though. No one's pretending he was a great human being. But he was a human being.
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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:24 am
'Twas a joke. Quote: It is a very dangerous attitude, and the kind of thing that gets us labeled as extremists. Agreed.
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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:25 am
lymelady kp is dcvi I.Am Right, yeah. This isn't all old arguments, but if we're going to have a drawn out discussion, someone should make a thread in the Extended Discussion subforum. And I think we probably should make our personal argument more private, since it's a little more heated, and would probably be uncomfortable for the newbies. This is your guild now, after all. Most of the oldbies are dead. So if ya'll newbies want to debate it, strike up a thread in the ED subforum. OMG did they get shot?! I personally am bothered by this issue. No one should be heralding this, but fingers still get pointed at people as though they are proud of what has transpired. I have heard that Tiller has taken 60,000 fetuses. That's a scary number. Tiller is, at least, a law-abiding citizen whose life was illegally, and prematurely ended. He is not a Hero. One is daft for thinking otherwise. Some people are borderline proud. It's a vocal minority, but we know all about vocal minorities. Let's face it, there is no abortionist hated in America more than George Tiller was. He yelled at women who were distressed and crying that they were killing their babies, he guilted women into going through with procedures when they changed their mind, he performed abortions when the baby had things like down syndrome or cleft pallet, he's had the disgust of the American pro-life movement pointed on him since the very start. We can't pretend there is no one who is proud, because it's inevitable. It happens with every group. If Jill Stanek got killed for her pro-life advocacy, there would certainly be pro-choice people who reacted the same way that some pro-life people are reacting to Tiller. So...while it's not the majority, it's certainly happening. Perhaps fingers are pointed too readily, though. No one's pretending he was a great human being. But he was a human being. Well to be fair, no one is pretending because I believe such feelings can be genuine. For some people, an abortionist is on the same level of heroism as any other doctor in America.
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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:09 am
kp is dcvi lymelady kp is dcvi I.Am Right, yeah. This isn't all old arguments, but if we're going to have a drawn out discussion, someone should make a thread in the Extended Discussion subforum. And I think we probably should make our personal argument more private, since it's a little more heated, and would probably be uncomfortable for the newbies. This is your guild now, after all. Most of the oldbies are dead. So if ya'll newbies want to debate it, strike up a thread in the ED subforum. OMG did they get shot?! I personally am bothered by this issue. No one should be heralding this, but fingers still get pointed at people as though they are proud of what has transpired. I have heard that Tiller has taken 60,000 fetuses. That's a scary number. Tiller is, at least, a law-abiding citizen whose life was illegally, and prematurely ended. He is not a Hero. One is daft for thinking otherwise. Some people are borderline proud. It's a vocal minority, but we know all about vocal minorities. Let's face it, there is no abortionist hated in America more than George Tiller was. He yelled at women who were distressed and crying that they were killing their babies, he guilted women into going through with procedures when they changed their mind, he performed abortions when the baby had things like down syndrome or cleft pallet, he's had the disgust of the American pro-life movement pointed on him since the very start. We can't pretend there is no one who is proud, because it's inevitable. It happens with every group. If Jill Stanek got killed for her pro-life advocacy, there would certainly be pro-choice people who reacted the same way that some pro-life people are reacting to Tiller. So...while it's not the majority, it's certainly happening. Perhaps fingers are pointed too readily, though. No one's pretending he was a great human being. But he was a human being. Well to be fair, no one is pretending because I believe such feelings can be genuine. For some people, an abortionist is on the same level of heroism as any other doctor in America. Oh there are definitely people who see him as a hero. I view him as a martyr for his cause; he died doing what he felt was right in the face of danger. But no one who previously disliked him is pretending he was a great human being, is what I should have said.
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:07 am
He has indeed become a martyr for pro-choicers. It's a terrible tragedy on so many levels.
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:50 pm
EighthPlanet He has indeed become a martyr for pro-choicers. It's a terrible tragedy on so many levels. That's a good way of putting it. I agree. I have actually come across a fair amount of Christians who are happy about this which is a little unnerving for me. I wonder how many pro-choicers actually supported what Tiller did, I was under the impression that most Americans were against late term abortions but I guess things like this can ideologically push someone further away from a more moderate view.
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:50 am
Oi... I think this was totally blown out of proportion. And especially with the President speaking about this. It's like, wtf? 0-o
I gaurantee you that if a Pro-choicer shot a Pro-lifer at Church, you may have some local news article, but NOTHING like this crap.
What I am really pissed about this is that, like... 2 days after this happened two of our soldiers were shot, one killed, by a radical Islamist in THE USA! And you hardly heard anything about it! That's what really gets me...
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:57 pm
mazuac Oi... I think this was totally blown out of proportion. And especially with the President speaking about this. It's like, wtf? 0-o
I gaurantee you that if a Pro-choicer shot a Pro-lifer at Church, you may have some local news article, but NOTHING like this crap. To put it in perspective, there are very few Pro-Lifers who are as high profile as Dr. Tiller was. If it had been some random Pro-Choicer killed at church, it probably wouldn't have gotten as much coverage either. Although, in fairness, I think that both a Pro-Lifer killed by a Pro-Choice activist, and a Pro-Choice activist killed by a Pro-Life activist, in a church, would make national news, no matter who they were. But this was Dr. Tiller, survivor of multiple attempted murders, the man who was shot in both arms and continued to perform abortions, one of three (I think it's three) doctors in the United States who will perform a third term abortion, and a man who was regularly picketed and protested. He's about as high-profile as a Pro-Choicer can get. Quote: What I am really pissed about this is that, like... 2 days after this happened two of our soldiers were shot, one killed, by a radical Islamist in THE USA! And you hardly heard anything about it! That's what really gets me... Now that is true. I did see a decent amount of coverage... But only on Fox News.
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