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 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:22 pm
Well to be honest I wasn't overly fond of the nudeness but I agree that there is alot worse on gaia. I personally don't think a Character has to be nude to be art but then again I like classical art. oh well its ok with me.
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:08 pm
This is wierd, I honestly didn't think twice, not for a second, about the nudity. O.o It didn't occur to me that it'd be considered bad or offencive at all. I was too busy oogling the colour job on Miko's pic, and drooling over the style the 'boobs and line art' pic was done in. I adore it and I want one of my avitar in that style. Like Celes pointed out, there isn't anything actually showing, and it's not like they're doing something sexual in the pictures. This whole concept peturbs me. Seriously. neutral
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:31 pm
Im a little agitated, too.. Ive drawn racy stuff before, knowingly, willingly. I know when and where to display my images, be they anime or sensual realistic. (Im not saying I draw ******** hentai, get over it!) It never occured to me that anything i posted on gaia was "crossing the line"... stare The more I think about it...the more -perturbed- i get... neutral
Ive run rp threads and guilds where mature conduct takes place. Ive played mom and told people enough is enough. Ive followed the TOS. I know there are young viewers out there.. For me to be accused of ..pretty much...tainting the youth of Gaia! For shame sir! I am officialy offended by your words! Please remove them from my sight immediately!
*huff*
Hows that for drama queen! xd
And..no. A character does not -have- to be nude to be art. Don't get me started on how female game characters are always portrayed... But nudity in -art- shouldnt be censored. I get upset at the constant busty blonde babe in her underwear as the main sell of the game, not because she's practically naked. But because thats not going to make me want to buy that game. I could go on and on, but the point is, it may be the best half naked blonde model or concept sketch ever made..its still artwork. And I know what pains it goes into to model something like that...or create a finished looking composition...
Here I go again.
Just like Skateboarding should be legalized... so should tasteful nudity. stare crying
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:30 am
Actually...I agree with Rogue Dragon...that's probably because I was raised in a very church-involved family...and my mom would never allow me to see stuff like that, let alone draw it...so I was never a fan of that kind of art. I know it's not hentai...that's worse. 3nodding
I really don't have much more to say about the subject. gonk
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:47 am
I don't see anything wrong with it. Art is art. The human body happens to be a work of art.
And as for whether or not it's appropriate, well, it's tame enough to fall under a PG-13 rating, in which case it's allowed.
Honestly, if someone walks around in a city long enough they can see just as much cleavage, so I don't see what the problem is.
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:21 pm
Read the small print if you feel inclined to, or just skip to the green title. If you want to know the logic behind each, or a part, of my reason, then just PM me. I see no reason to continue this in this thread, but I will not remove what I have posted due to the focus being on general behavior, not my person values.
Okay I'm going to refrain from insulting some of you when it comes to understanding how something is written and such. The whole point was that I KNOW I'm a person who doesn't like to see such things, but, reguardless of my personal views, it shouldn't be here. If you are not willing to go around in public like that, if you are not willing to show that to little kids (K-3rd graders, or younger), if you think that this guild is composed of people that should be considered examples of good behavior, or just don't want to be rude and shove it in someone's face when you don't know if they are going to be offended, but with the numbers of people a few are probably going to be, then you shouldn't post such images in a thread on Gaia. Linking off site, I don't like it but it's not rudely making it so anyone passing by has to see it for a moument if they scroll down your list of images. Having a gallery where such things are allowed by the rules of that site, fine, there's a warning that such is allowed.
The whole focus of my objection was that it shouldn't be here for reasons beyond censorship. PG-13 has NO nudity. Bikinis, nothing on under covers in bed, changing behind those changing screem things, in shower with door or plastic curtain in the way are the limit. That's what it technically is. I understand that that would be near impossible to make the entire site go by and that the Mods don't follow this that strictly or as strictly as I would like, but This is OUR guild. In such we should be at our best behavior because we don't have to deal with the people who don't seem to understand the rules.
If anybody noticed I ASKED. As a guild mod it could have just vanished, but no, I wanted to be polite and respectful of the fact that yes your an artist, person, and fellow member of this guild. Yes it's well drawn, I know there is far worse on this site, but at the same time you can't even name a topic something haveing to do with nudity unless it's a nudist colony or having no items on your avatar. Now I ask a diferent question, "Why can you not go without the nudity to be a good example, not offensive, and realize that I'm being a pest about this because of respect to others, not me not likeing to see that?"
As simple a way as I can find to put this:
We, members of the Elven Guild, should be mature enough to deal with it, but also mature enough to not force others to see it if they don't wish to do so. A link with a warning would be respectful, but I will point out that the name is enough to make people refuse to let their children see it. I know this for a fact. I asked a parent who has nothing against it, but still thinks it shouldn't be posted on Gaia for the same reasons I have stated.
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:46 pm
who would have thought that my picture would have caused such contreversy... Geez... Its not like I drew it, and I told him to draw it sorta sexual, but I think he went alittle overboard on it (as you can see by the boobs)
But I agree with Celes. Its not really nudity, I mean I could throw up a picture of me completely naked covering my nipples and have my legs crossed, and it wouldn't be considered sexual porn because its not showing any MAJOR sexual part of my body.
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:45 pm
Ok, I'm changing the topic title slightly to give a mild warning. I'm sorry it offends some of you, but now no one will come into the thread without being warned they might be offended or something. I do appreciate you didn't just go and delete the pictures that offended you Rogue Dragon, for that I do respect you. I hope this will help to drop the matter for further dispute.
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:26 pm
I think that will only make people want to come in this thread, Gem xd
Today's basic cable has more nudity then those pictures had. I mean if anyone has ever watched n**/Tuck you'll know what I'm talking about. Those pictures were nothing, it's actually better for younger people to see it like that then on some porno later on. The bottom line is sex is everywhere nowadays. We shouldn't turn their heads away, that is their choice.
And as an artist, Celes can post that picture anywhere she pleases. It's fair to say that not one person who saw those pictures really noticed the "nudity" first. We were all admiring the artwork that we were seing.
Anyways, most of us are in agreement that this is art work and not porn, so the picture is staying.
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:33 pm
Rogue Dragon ~ I guess I didn't realize that you were a mod, so thanks for not deleting them off the bat. I read your small print.. And I'll tell you why "I can't go without the nudity"... Maybe its a little...inconsiderate of me on some levels, but I cant go without it, because I dont find it offensive. Its natural. Its beautiful. A womans figure is the most beautiful thing to draw, in my opinion. I love the curves and shapes. A naked woman is so sensual and a portrait of the very essence of life.
Its such a shame that we should hide it from children, make them feel guilty for seeing it. Im not suggesting we shove a pair of boobs in their face. But let them see art. Let them not be ashamed to admire a beautifuly painted or sketched figure. Theres a distinct and yet at the same time obscure line that is drawn between art and porn, I know. But its so unfortunate that the true art peices make people so upset... Wow. Thats depressing.
Maybe i was just raised in a more open and accepting environment.. A minority of sorts....
Thanks for changing the thread topic, Gem.. Now there will be some warning at least.. Though, I agree with Deftone, haha, it may bring more people in.
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:48 pm
Celes Rogue Dragon ~ I guess I didn't realize that you were a mod, so thanks for not deleting them off the bat. I read your small print.. And I'll tell you why "I can't go without the nudity"... Maybe its a little...inconsiderate of me on some levels, but I cant go without it, because I dont find it offensive. Its natural. Its beautiful. A womans figure is the most beautiful thing to draw, in my opinion. I love the curves and shapes. A naked woman is so sensual and a portrait of the very essence of life. Its such a shame that we should hide it from children, make them feel guilty for seeing it. Im not suggesting we shove a pair of boobs in their face. But let them see art. Let them not be ashamed to admire a beautifuly painted or sketched figure. Theres a distinct and yet at the same time obscure line that is drawn between art and porn, I know. But its so unfortunate that the true art peices make people so upset... Wow. Thats depressing. Maybe i was just raised in a more open and accepting environment.. A minority of sorts.... Thanks for changing the thread topic, Gem.. Now there will be some warning at least.. Though, I agree with Deftone, haha, it may bring more people in.
and I also agree with Deftone... Theres more close-to-porn on TV then anywhere else.
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:26 pm
I'd almost forgotten how much I luffed you Defty. ^_______^ ~chews~ Miko Shinwa Celes Rogue Dragon ~ I guess I didn't realize that you were a mod, so thanks for not deleting them off the bat. I read your small print.. And I'll tell you why "I can't go without the nudity"... Maybe its a little...inconsiderate of me on some levels, but I cant go without it, because I dont find it offensive. Its natural. Its beautiful. A womans figure is the most beautiful thing to draw, in my opinion. I love the curves and shapes. A naked woman is so sensual and a portrait of the very essence of life. Its such a shame that we should hide it from children, make them feel guilty for seeing it. Im not suggesting we shove a pair of boobs in their face. But let them see art. Let them not be ashamed to admire a beautifuly painted or sketched figure. Theres a distinct and yet at the same time obscure line that is drawn between art and porn, I know. But its so unfortunate that the true art peices make people so upset... Wow. Thats depressing. Maybe i was just raised in a more open and accepting environment.. A minority of sorts.... Thanks for changing the thread topic, Gem.. Now there will be some warning at least.. Though, I agree with Deftone, haha, it may bring more people in.
and I also agree with Deftone... Theres more close-to-porn on TV then anywhere else.Wow, I can't seem to say it as well as either of you, but that's my perspective as well. I have trouble drawing guys, I know the muscle and skeletal structure soooo much better in women. sweatdrop
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:56 pm
I read the thread, gah! I thought that was crazy. I didn't find Celes' art wrong in any way. My brother, sister and I were raised in a household that appreciates art, and we were exposed to the naked form in art from very early childhood, and we are not messed up. I think that being overly obsessed with it like that shows more perversion than those who are excepting of it. I can look at a beautiful naked form without getting aroused, and simply admire the naked form for what it is; a beautiful creation of nature. Celes' explanations that the reason that the word "boobs" was in the picture, was enough for me.
I believe that always viewing the naked form as just and only sexual and viewing sexuality just and only as a dirty thing shows a perversion of mind. I do not appreciate people like Rogue Dragon condescending manner of imposing his views. I don't like the connotation that I or anyone else who is tolerant, excepting, and admirer of art of nudity, are therefore in some way depraved. That is insulting to my sensibilities.
Not only is it pointless to censor art with nudity, it would practically impossible.
For example, look at this....
Georgia O'keefe Painting
What did you see? A close up of flower? A female sexual organ? A black figure with his head back and his arm held above his head? Or is it merely blotches of colour?
I see all the above suggestions in this particular painting. I also admire the painting for the skill masterfully applied to this lucky canvas.
To quote Oscar Wilde "All art is at once surface and symbol"
Do you take this painting at face value and say "It's a flower" or can you read the painting and say "It's a woman". A flower is, after all, the sexual organ of a plant.
So, if I only saw a flower, and find this painting beautiful, and you only saw a female organ, and found it offensive, does that mean my opinion of the painting is worth less because I only see "beauty", and you only see "sin"? Would it mean I was naive or would it mean you are corrupted?
Ultimately, can a painting convey many messages independently from one another?
What you see in the painting doesn't mean that was what the artist intended you to see. Or what you fancy you saw. If an artist never explains their work, does that mean your interpretation of that work is the only explanation?
And again, even if the artist did explain their work, does that mean it cannot have another interpretation? Even if O'Keefe said "This is a flower" could I not see anything I wanted in the painting, even if that was not its original meaning?
Rogue Dragon sees nudity (in a sexual way) in Celes' picture, even though that was not her intent, and he chose to be offended by it. Does that mean he is right? Is the value of art judged only on the opinions of the majority? If you do not like something, does that mean that painting has no value (either as a beautiful thing, or a statement). If you do like something, does that mean it has value?
And then from Celes' view, she meant simply to make a picture in an artistically definable style (Line Art) and chose an undressed, yet tastefully covered female to be her model. Does she not have freedom of expression?
I do not like the works of Picasso, but that does not mean I do not think his work does not have cultural value. I would not hang a Picasso print in my home, but that does not mean I do not think it has a place in the world of art. I do not like Picasso's style, but that does not mean I would be condescending to those who do.
Just a few questions everyone should think about.
I can see both sides of argument, and I believe, Rogue Dragon's point has some merit.
I also believe that this picture of Celes' that is in question falls well within the standards of PG 13. I have seen, read, and experienced a lot worse on Gaia.
In my opinion, Rogue Dragon is being over zealous.
Edit: Link Fixed
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:41 pm
Whoa Inigo, way to make an enterance. xd I like O'Keefe's work, it's always close up pictures of flowers. ^.^
Speaking of a woman's organs, don't let your children watch Boombah (if that is in fact how it's spelled) if you don't want them exposed to said imagery. ~shudders~
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:42 pm
Wonderfully spoken Inigo. So much art history, theory, philosophy. Thats the great thing about art. It asks so many questions. Brings out the best in us, the worst in us. Convails so much emotion and meaning, or none at all.
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