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 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:09 pm
I.Am Topaz_Rising_Flame karllikespies Can anyone help me with the argument that if abortion is made illegal women who have miscarriages will be charged with manslaughter. The pro-choicers keep bringing it up, and I keep telling them its ridiculous, but they keep clinging to it. A miscarriage is a natural form of death. Its not manslaughter because the woman did nothing to loose the baby. Its only manslaughter when its intentional, right? No, actually one of the dictionary's descriptions specifically says that it's "without the intent of causing harm". However, I believe that the legal definition includes non-premeditated murder. Passion-of-the-moment stuff. If it's intentional, it's murder. Regardless, miscarriages aren't manslaughter unless she had a hand in killing her child. Did she drink excessively or smoke? That might be unintentional killing...maybe, it depends. Did she have an ectopic pregnancy or did the fetus just die on its own? If my friend had a heart attack and died in my car, I wouldn't be charged with manslaughter simply because the natural death occurred in my car. If I slipped her pills, though, it's murder, but where she was when she died isn't relevant in terms of classifying something as murder or natural death. Same with a fetus dying.
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:50 am
lymelady I.Am Topaz_Rising_Flame karllikespies Can anyone help me with the argument that if abortion is made illegal women who have miscarriages will be charged with manslaughter. The pro-choicers keep bringing it up, and I keep telling them its ridiculous, but they keep clinging to it. A miscarriage is a natural form of death. Its not manslaughter because the woman did nothing to loose the baby. Its only manslaughter when its intentional, right? No, actually one of the dictionary's descriptions specifically says that it's "without the intent of causing harm". However, I believe that the legal definition includes non-premeditated murder. Passion-of-the-moment stuff. If it's intentional, it's murder. Regardless, miscarriages aren't manslaughter unless she had a hand in killing her child. Did she drink excessively or smoke? That might be unintentional killing...maybe, it depends. Did she have an ectopic pregnancy or did the fetus just die on its own? If my friend had a heart attack and died in my car, I wouldn't be charged with manslaughter simply because the natural death occurred in my car. If I slipped her pills, though, it's murder, but where she was when she died isn't relevant in terms of classifying something as murder or natural death. Same with a fetus dying. Yep. I was just answering her question about whether it has to be intentional or not. smile
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:29 am
lymelady Quote: 2 [Latin, crab, cancer] a : a malignant tumor of potentially unlimited growth that expands locally by invasion and systemically by metastasis b : an abnormal bodily state marked by such tumors Okay. Well, we know that a fetus expands by growing. We don''t say a baby is invading out of her clothes. We say she''s growing out of them. There is nothing unnatural about pregnancy. And women don''t give birth from their lungs. "I''ve got lung pregnancy." Metastasis doesn''t happen. They make no sense. There isn't potentially unlimited growth either. An unborn baby grows until it is born and then grows some more but there is a limit due to genetics and living conditions. There has never been a person who has never stopped growing.
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:32 pm
I love you heart I actually have a really common argument that ticks me off. Quote: I have nothing against you guys, being against abortion. I respect your views, and I expect you to respect mine and other prochoicer's views too. But there is one thing that really peeves me about antiabortionists is that most of them don't respect the prochoicer's views on it. The ones that are against abortion that I know, constantly shove it in our throats, trying to make us feel bad and manipulate us into changing our minds on the abortion issue. And all that manipulation is not right. You have to accept our views just like we accept yours. Okay...first of all she says antiabortionists and talks about how she respects us and is confused when we try to give our opinions. I felt like responding with, "What I don't like about you antilifers" or "antigynocologists" or "antimothers" or something. Next, I know a thing or two about shoving something down throats. Let's recap. The law now: Forces people to be unable to stop the deaths of their children, grandchildren, siblings, etc. Because of course, telling every male in the country that he is powerless to defend his unborn child is absolutely nowhere near shoving anything on anyone. Seriously, I'm pretty sure she'd feel differently on a law that allowed infants to be killed by their mothers without any say from the father. I've never told someone who's had an abortion that she's evil. Because I dont freaking believe it and I hate it when people do. The victim attitude applied towards me doesn't go well with me because I can't imagine anyone being victimized by me. Except for maybe Andy. But even that would have to involve carebears. People also need to stop arguing that they're doing it for the good of the unborn. Seriously. That's like deciding to kill someone because you don't think they'll be happy being a girl in this world. Oh wait, it's already used to kill unborn girls based on their sex, my mistake. http://www.genetics-and-society.org/resources/sexselection/factsheet.htmlSeriously. Death is permanent. Life is not. So why the heck take the permanent solution to a hypothetical unhappiness? Especially when it's not your own life you're dooming? It's for yourself and your family. Either they don't want the kid due to money, or work, or whatever, they convince themselves it's the best for their child. No. I'm sorry, but being dead isn't the best for them. You don't shoot someone because you're afraid they'll have a rough deal in highschool and decide that they'll be better off dead. Though of course I am a fascist religious nut since I want to impose my view as law saying, "Don't kill humans," as opposed to one saying, "You can kill, and y'all can watch your family die without being able to do anything about it, and we can decide the quality of this person's life before he or she is even born because we're just that special." Being the obvious nazi I am for opposing the deaths of millions, people losing their children without any say whatsoever, and people being pricetagged as "wanted" or "unwanted", I'll close with, Sieg Heil!
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:50 am
I find that the pro-choice movement tends to shove it in our throats more, and are also more insulting and ruthless in their tactics.
I think they know they lost, so are relying on insults to keep it going.
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:28 am
You have to realize that anything they say is truth... undenyable truth. In their minds they are God, they have the rule book, and are able to bend it any such way to meet what they wish.
What I find amazing is they make dirrect comparrisons that don't make any sense. It is mind boggling how bad they argue... saying morality has no say. Yeah thats fair rolleyes .
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:10 am
Well, it is very tiring. Which is why I think most of us here just don't go to the topic in the ED anymore.
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:22 am
Yeah I just gave up on trying to get anything through, they just keep pulling out something from somewhere, and leave us barren, not giving us much credit or valididity on tehe reasons we use to support. Seems all they see is black and white... no exceptions we can make. Well they can make exceptions, since of course they mind to bend rules to their whim.
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:29 pm
Well, I've noticed many fallacies to their arguments.
Red Herring, Straw man, Ad Hominem, emotional barrages... and also circular/ethnocentric logic.
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:49 pm
FreeArsenal I find that the pro-choice movement tends to shove it in our throats more, and are also more insulting and ruthless in their tactics. I think they know they lost, so are relying on insults to keep it going. Definitly way more insulting I think when I debate them I encounter more insult than logic. At least I find pro-lifers try and sensor themselves.
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:31 pm
Over a PM. Quote: Its just a bundle of cells. How can you care so much for it? In reality it never stops being a bundle of cells. Our body is madly up of trillins of densly packed cells and other nice little organic doodads. So if you can justify murder with that statement, then you will have no objections if I remove your head form your shoulders. Quote: Well, you see. The diffrence between me and that bundle of cells is that I'm an intelegent being You and I have conflicitng views on what counts for intelegence stare If you look at most of the "cohernet" argyuments, you'll find that they arn't so coherent. "The mother should have an abortion because it could ruin her finasialy" Never heard of such a thing, not unless she actualy want s to be financialy ruined "She's too young, she'll have to drop out of school" Is she really? Will she have to? Form what i under stand a womans body can handel the strain to an age as young as 14. SHe'll have to take extra speacial care, but she very well could handle it. Also, i beilive high school and many middle school depending on the area or situation are required by law to offer "maternal leave. "It will ruin her body" Not if she take care of her self while pregnant...realy now, that ones a given "She was raped." This is actualy rare. I am to understand that rape is so trauma tising that more often then not somthign happen that actuly prevents pregancy. And even if she does get pregnant, its not the childs fault. I can under stand why the woman wouldn't want to carrey the child, but i can';t under stand why she would want to deny it life. Really, the only argument I actualy can't rebuttle to is if its needed to save her life. However, thats realy realy rare in this day and age. However, 92% I think it is, of the reasons a woman has an abortion is simply because the child would be an inconvenyince. SHe's young, she's beautiful, and a child would ruin all that. SHe's have to fork over some more money to feed an extra mouth, she'll have to make room for another life. Well lady, I'm sorry your so selfish that you would go so far as to kill an innocent. I'll admit that some cases are not the mothers fault, she was at a point where she really didn't knwo what to do and was presured into it with out being told of the other possibilities....we havbe Planed Parenthood to thank for some of that mess
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:37 pm
FreeArsenal Well, I've noticed many fallacies to their arguments. Red Herring, Straw man, Ad Hominem, emotional barrages... and also circular/ethnocentric logic. What about physical barrages? Can anyone say numbers equal to the word "Swarms"?
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:08 pm
kp606 FreeArsenal Well, I've noticed many fallacies to their arguments. Red Herring, Straw man, Ad Hominem, emotional barrages... and also circular/ethnocentric logic. What about physical barrages? Can anyone say numbers equal to the word "Swarms"? Well, words don't mean a thing to teh phyisicallity of a person lol.
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:35 pm
Beg to differ, Free, I've gotten so upset reading some of their posts that I had to lie down before. But I guess you can't really touch anyoneso it's not directly physical. It still has a physical effect though.
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:03 pm
I've physicly become sick form some of the htings they say. How one or two of them find abortion and how its down to be interesting and how a few of us pro-lifers could benefit form seein ghow its done...
I really wish they had a button here that lets me shoot some of them...
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