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 Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:33 pm
I really don't think it's that dramatic. They just want their land back, they want to not be bullied, they don't want the western way of life impeding on their culture. It's understandable...at least to me.
Trust me, I understand both sides of the argument, I just like living as of now.
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:47 pm
kingpinsqeezels I really don't think it's that dramatic. They just want their land back, they want to not be bullied, they don't want the western way of life impeding on their culture. It's understandable...at least to me. Trust me, I understand both sides of the argument, I just like living as of now. Yeah but all the wars... there's no treaty... just a cease fire... which is a pause button. Inevitably the pause button is released and the fighting continues without missing a beat. The only way to end a war is to have a clear winner and a clear loser that both sides agree on.
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:10 pm
kingpinsqeezels I really don't think it's that dramatic. They just want their land back, they want to not be bullied, they don't want the western way of life impeding on their culture. It's understandable...at least to me. Trust me, I understand both sides of the argument, I just like living as of now. Keep in mind, the argument about land can go all different ways. Judea, Canaan, Rome, Alexander, the Ottomons, Persia, etc. All these groups have controlled that land at one point or another. The question is, what makes any of them have a bigger claim than the others? This is what makes it hard to determine. Legally, Israel owns its land. Legally, Palestine would have existed had it not declared war as soon as Israel declared independence. There's only one Jewish nation, how many Arab and Muslim nations? Of course, it's all blurred by emotions. Logic has no place in it. Neither side is in the right, and both are in the wrong.
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:05 am
Dis Domnu This is what makes it hard to determine. Legally, Israel owns its land. Legally, Palestine would have existed had it not declared war as soon as Israel declared independence. There's only one Jewish nation, how many Arab and Muslim nations? That's such a bad argument... should the Kurds go after Turkey now to claim a Kurdish Homeland across the Turkish and Iraqi border and be justified in Operation : Land Grab? The main issue is that nothing unifies the Palestinians and the Israelis except the same piece of dirt they've been fighting over for near 60 years.
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:43 am
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:33 pm
LordNeuf Dis Domnu This is what makes it hard to determine. Legally, Israel owns its land. Legally, Palestine would have existed had it not declared war as soon as Israel declared independence. There's only one Jewish nation, how many Arab and Muslim nations? That's such a bad argument... should the Kurds go after Turkey now to claim a Kurdish Homeland across the Turkish and Iraqi border and be justified in Operation : Land Grab? The main issue is that nothing unifies the Palestinians and the Israelis except the same piece of dirt they've been fighting over for near 60 years. What part of it is a bad argument? The legality, the single nation for a historically oppressed people, or that Palestine was wtfpwned during the Israeli war of independence?
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:26 pm
It's not THAT off topic. It's natural to assume that if you talk about the weapons, etc. of a certain military, conversations about that military will arise.
I don't think creating Israel was really in the interest of the Jews. Sure there are logical reasons behind it, but if you think about it, they (as in the UN) knew what would become of taking land. They knew the consequences, and yet they still did it. Was putting the Holy Land on the map really worth all this bloodshed? Worth the years of failed diplomacy. Worth pissing everyone off.
We look back on what the white man did to Indians and we know it was wrong. If you had been living in an area so long, and suddenly someone says, "This is mine now", how would you react? *Sigh* It's not like I'm asking anyone to support the Palestinian cause, I just want people to understand their is merit in their argument. It's not all about hatred of the Jews, but the creation of Israel certainly fueled that. It's frustrating.
Oh, and thanks a lot Neuf. *Hums Sugar, Sugar...for the rest of the day*
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:51 pm
It wasn't as though the Palestinians owned the nation prior to Israel's creation. It was owned by the British, and before the British by the Ottoman Empire. Palestine was not Palestinian until the UN decided on the original partition plan. Without the UN stepping in, that land would have been British.
That's not to say that the Palestinians are wrong for the way they feel, but that the argument that Israel suddenly took their land is based on misinformation. The land wasn't theres, Israel didn't steal it. It wasn't even until the Six Day War that Gaza and the West Bank were taken by Israel.
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:31 pm
My argument isn't that the land was there, it was that they LIVED on that land. You know, the Indians didn't think any of this land was theirs, that's why they sold "New Amsterdam" to the dutch for some pots and pans.
I dunno, civilization sucks.
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:15 pm
I don't believe the Palestinians were told to leave the land until they declared war. I may be mistaken, though.
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:52 pm
Well according to Munich, and Stephen Speilberg never lies, in some cases they were forced out.
And even if they were forced out after the war, that's a really stupid strategy. For goodness sake, it's like people wanted this war. It's like no one took pre-cautionary steps, or even really cared what was going to happen. The basis that "it says so in the Bible" really doesn't get people very far anymore...
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:11 pm
Oh, yes, some of them were forced out, just like some Jews were forced out of Palestinian areas. Both sides in the conflict are, indeed, rather stupid. I happen to think that the reasons for Israel's existence outweigh the reasons for Israel's destruction.
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:59 pm
Eh, I don't really think Israel serves any real purpose that it didn't serve before. The only thing that's different is mortar shells and the laws regarding aliyah.
If it was peaceful before, it could be peaceful again. There's an easy way to accomplish that.
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:01 pm
I'm afraid I don't quite understand your meaning.
But, what is this easy way?
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:37 pm
The easy thing to do is admit Zionism is done. I had a long spiel written out, but I accidentally erased it. I suppose that gets my point across in a few words. Read some of this, it's kinda negative, but it gets the point across pretty easily.
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Reply
