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 Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:54 am
ShadowIce I think it's sad that you wouldn't be friends with someone who had an abortion that you don't approve of. What prompts you to make this decision? I just feel that someone who would make this particular choice (to abort a previously wanted pregnancy for non-life-threatening health, of the unborn human, reasons) would probably indicate a larger character flaw in that person. There are certainly reasons this person might have that would change my mind on the matter. But, given the description of the person in OP, they don't sound like someone I would be friends with. To me it sounds like the pregnant woman's reasons are either that she's over-reacting to bad news, or that she just doesn't want to have a child that isn't "perfect". If she really were concerned over the health of her future child, I would try to find out more information about their possible health risks, and thus see what her better informed decision would be. If she honestly felt that the health risks for the child were too great, that wouldn't make an impact on our friendship. It isn't the abortion, it's the reasons that I feel are behind it, that would possibly cause me to end my friendship with this person. Since she doesn't exist, it probably won't ever be an issue. *wink* ShadowIce WatersMoon110 Being a little person is not really a negative thing in our society anymore, though there can be some complications, depending on the type. Quote: Common problems during infancy and childhood The child with achondroplasia faces a number of difficulties, including: * Breathing difficulties - including snoring and sleep apnoea (the regular cessation of breathing during sleep), caused by narrowed nasal passages. * Ear infections - caused by narrowed Eustachian tubes (tubes leading from the ears to the throat) and nasal passages. * Bowed legs - the legs are initially straight, but become bow-legged once the child starts walking. Over time, in some cases, the weight of the child's body causes the legs to bow. * Increased lumbar lordosis - a backward curve in the lower spine. * Reduced muscle strength - the child has softer muscle tone than normal, and needs to be adequately supported until the muscle groups are ready to support the neck and spine. * Hydrocephalus - the child has an increased risk of hydrocephalus (one in 100), which is an accumulation of cerebrospinal fluid inside the skull that can lead to head enlargement. * Narrow foramen magnum - the child has a smaller than normal opening at the base of the skull (foramen magnum), where the spinal cord begins. This can sometimes press against the brain stem and cause symptoms including apnoea (cessation of breathing) and neurological signs. Common health problems during adulthood Problems faced by the adult with achondroplasia can include: * Nerve compression - the nerves in the lower back or lumbar region are squashed, which can cause symptoms such as numbness or tingling in the legs. * Obesity - most adults experience difficulties in maintaining a healthy weight for their height. * Crowded teeth - the upper jaw is typically small, which causes the teeth to overcrowd. * Higher risk pregnancies - pregnant women with achondroplasia need expert antenatal care. Caesarean section is the usual mode of delivery. WatersMoon110 And a cleft pallet can be repaired pretty well.
See here
I also remember reading something about how sometimes a cleft pallet can be so extreme that it goes up into the brain. But I can't find that right now, so I could be wrong.I think I've heard of that also (clefting into the brain) - and since that seems pretty fatal-sounding, I could understand aborting if the condition were that severe. Also, given that the husband still wants the pregnancy (and that I don't think they can detect these two conditions until the third trimester), it would seem fair, to me, if the woman were willing to continue the (late-term) pregnancy and give the resulting infant to the husband to raise, rather than aborting.
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:15 pm
Now here's the thing, and forgive me if I sound like someone using that dreaded slippery slope fallacy, but don't abortions for this particular kind of reason open a whole door to eugenics, and aborting for more superficial reasons. I mean, a child with these complications are difficult, but it's also true that children with worse difficulties than dwarfism or cleft pallet have done just as well as children with no difficulties.
This is why programs for special-needs children in school exist-- because despite problems like this, people do indeed make the choice to have these children-- and why not? Are they less worthy of life, or is their life only supposed to be weighed in equal measure with the inconvenience to the parents, or even just one parent?
Now, as for eugenics, I am a firm believer that if people decide to pick and choose what they want their children to be before they even have a chance to be born, they're really being irresponsible with the ability to give life. There was a thread in the pro-life guild that discussed people in the near future having the ability to be able to detect whether their children are gay or not before they're out of the womb, and being able to abort their children based on that reason.
And I can see the logic. Gay children grow up with more difficulties, than straight kids, I guess. So do children with complications like you proposed, Gypsy. But who's to say one way or the other that WE have the right to decide whether their life is worthy of beginning based on OUR morals, rather than considering that the child has a life that's beginning as well? One that is separate from our own, and our children have a right to have different morals and ways of living than us, don't they?
I hope that made sense. I ramble. xd heart
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:15 pm
I also think somewhat less of people who would abort because they don't want girl babies (like in India and China)
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:29 pm
Yeah, there's a whole range of reasons why you COULD abort, that planned parenthood doesn't list on their site.
Because they're not reasons everyone wants to accept that people do abort, I think. Like, if a lot of people in Canada, or even the USA, started aborting for the sole reason that their children didn't suit their particular gender that they desired, I would find something terribly wrong with my society.
That's just me, though. 3nodding
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:54 pm
WatersMoon110 I just feel that someone who would make this particular choice (to abort a previously wanted pregnancy for non-life-threatening health, of the unborn human, reasons) would probably indicate a larger character flaw in that person. There are certainly reasons this person might have that would change my mind on the matter. But, given the description of the person in OP, then I'm sorry, but it's still the truth. To me it sounds like the pregnant woman's reasons are either that she's over-reacting to bad news, or that she just doesn't want to have a child that isn't "perfect". If she really were concerned over the health of her future child, I would try to find out more information about their possible health risks, and thus see what her better informed decision would be. If she honestly felt that the health risks for the child were too great, that wouldn't make an impact on our friendship.
WatersMoon110 It isn't the abortion, it's the reasons that I feel are behind it, that would possibly cause me to end my friendship with this person. Since she doesn't exist, it probably won't ever be an issue. *wink* WatersMoon110 I think I've heard of that also (clefting into the brain) - and since that seems pretty fatal-sounding, I could understand aborting if the condition were that severe. WatersMoon110 Also, given that the husband still wants the pregnancy (and that I don't think they can detect these two conditions until the third trimester), it would seem fair, to me, if the woman were willing to continue the (late-term) pregnancy and give the resulting infant to the husband to raise, rather than aborting.
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:11 pm
ShadowIce For me, personally, I would have an abortion if the fetus had something wrong that I felt would damage his or her quality life. To me, a fetus is nothing more than potential, and if that potential is such that the child would endure undue suffering, I will terminate. It's not that I need a "perfect" child (I don't believe perfect children or adults exist). I just don't want to create a child who I know will suffer in a manner that I could have prevented. I know a lot of people (even within the Pro-Choice community) don't agree with me, but it's my truth. If it makes me a bad person, then I guess I'm a bad person.
I don't think that makes you a bad person. I think that I am a bad person because I might not be unable to continue a friendship with such a person. Not an issue with them, but an issue with me, I would be uncomfortable. ShadowIce Well, it just makes me a little sad that you would break off the friendship because you don't approve of why she had an abortion. Unless I was actually in a situation, I really don't know how I would act. But I think that it would always bug me, inside, if I knew someone had aborted a wanted pregnancy because it wasn't completely perfect (especially for something like dwarfism or gender). Like I said, I wouldn't really consider it a failure in that person, but a failing in myself, that I wouldn't be able to fully accept them. ShadowIce WatersMoon110 I think I've heard of that also (clefting into the brain) - and since that seems pretty fatal-sounding, I could understand aborting if the condition were that severe. That is scary. In the case of something like that, I have no idea what I would do! I would certainly never want to give birth if the resulting baby would die soon after. But if it was uncertain how long they would live, I don't know what I would do (other than cry a bunch). I suppose it would depend on the odds. ShadowIce Certainly I think it was a mistake for this woman to not talk to this man about her feelings beforehand (I'm assuming that she knew her feelings about this beforehand). I also think she should consider your suggestion to give the baby to the father, although I don't want her legally obligated to (and I think we agree here). We sure do! I would not want it to be a legal obligation (since it is her body), but I would hope that she would consider this option carefully, and talk it over with her (I'm betting soon to be ex-)husband before doing anything. And her doctor, to learn exactly what the future child might expect in terms of health issues during their life.
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:56 pm
WatersMoon110 I don't think that makes you a bad person. I think that I am a bad person because I might not be unable to continue a friendship with such a person. Not an issue with them, but an issue with me, I would be uncomfortable. WatersMoon110 That is scary. In the case of something like that, I have no idea what I would do! I would certainly never want to give birth if the resulting baby would die soon after. But if it was uncertain how long they would live, I don't know what I would do (other than cry a bunch). I suppose it would depend on the odds.
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:03 pm
ShadowIce WatersMoon110 I don't think that makes you a bad person. I think that I am a bad person because I might not be unable to continue a friendship with such a person. Not an issue with them, but an issue with me, I would be uncomfortable. I actually enjoy being around drunk people, even when I'm not drinking. Maybe because I am usually pretty good at dealing with them, getting them to bed and making sure they have a trash can/bucket. But yeah, I think we all have certain issues that we just don't deal well with (like "dipping" is something that I find too gross to be around for long, without feeling very ill). ShadowIce I believe that when cleft palate is present, it is uncommon for the cleft palate to be so severe that it goes into the brain. However, I'm not certain. I think you're right. Though that article about cleft palate and smaller brains scared me too! It's usually not something fatal, I believe, but surgery to fix it can be very expensive.
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:02 pm
I have absolutely no problem admitting I wouldn't respect someone as much for abortion a late-term pregnancy based on mild cleft pallet (which was what was presented in the first post, not severe cleft pallet, which can indeed come with very, very damaging problems) or dwarfism. The reason being, it's illegal to have an abortion at that point, except for reasons like this, even ones that are easily fixable or that thousands of people live with, without saying they wish they'd been aborted, and their quality of life isn't severely affected. It just indicates something ugly in that person's personality. I guess it's different if you think a fetus is just a potential life, but I don't, I think a fetus is an actual life, and that it's disgusting to kill someone because they're not perfect. If someone gave birth to a baby with the same problems, and the mother wanted to kill the baby, then I don't think it would be sad that I didn't want to be friends with the mother.
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:24 pm
lymelady I have absolutely no problem admitting I wouldn't respect someone as much for abortion a late-term pregnancy based on mild cleft pallet (which was what was presented in the first post, not severe cleft pallet, which can indeed come with very, very damaging problems)
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:54 pm
ShadowIce lymelady I have absolutely no problem admitting I wouldn't respect someone as much for abortion a late-term pregnancy based on mild cleft pallet (which was what was presented in the first post, not severe cleft pallet, which can indeed come with very, very damaging problems) You're right. It's hard to detect that it's there, let alone the severity of it. But even when it's severe, surgery can fix the problems presented by the cleft palate (I love how I've been misspelling it the entire time. Talk about brain fog xd ) The only issue is if you can't afford the surgery, but lifesaving surgeries will be done anyway. It's basically a matter of what's easier for the parent, at that point. Can they deal with a child who might/will need medical care? Can they deal with a child who isn't perfect? Would it be easier on the child in their minds to have an abortion then or go through surgeries? If their fetus isn't a baby to them, it's easier, but given that they wanted the fetus in question they've probably been calling it a baby for months, especially since, again, it would be very late second trimester or somewhere in the third trimester. That it would suddenly not be a baby because the fetus wasn't perfect would, again, repulse me.
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:03 pm
lymelady But even when it's severe, surgery can fix the problems presented by the cleft palate lymelady (I love how I've been misspelling it the entire time. Talk about brain fog xd )
lymelady It's basically a matter of what's easier for the parent, at that point. Can they deal with a child who might/will need medical care? Can they deal with a child who isn't perfect? Would it be easier on the child in their minds to have an abortion then or go through surgeries? If their fetus isn't a baby to them, it's easier, but given that they wanted the fetus in question they've probably been calling it a baby for months, especially since, again, it would be very late second trimester or somewhere in the third trimester. That it would suddenly not be a baby because the fetus wasn't perfect would, again, repulse me.
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:15 pm
ShadowIce lymelady But even when it's severe, surgery can fix the problems presented by the cleft palate lymelady (I love how I've been misspelling it the entire time. Talk about brain fog xd )
lymelady It's basically a matter of what's easier for the parent, at that point. Can they deal with a child who might/will need medical care? Can they deal with a child who isn't perfect? Would it be easier on the child in their minds to have an abortion then or go through surgeries? If their fetus isn't a baby to them, it's easier, but given that they wanted the fetus in question they've probably been calling it a baby for months, especially since, again, it would be very late second trimester or somewhere in the third trimester. That it would suddenly not be a baby because the fetus wasn't perfect would, again, repulse me. Nothing I can find says that cleft palate is deadly or negatively affects your mental capacity. I've been searching for awhile. It might, though, I'm not denying that. I'm just not finding it. And I honestly haven't met many women in the third trimester who think of their wanted fetuses as things other than babies; I wouldn't walk up to someone who miscarried in the 7th month and say, "I'm so sorry for the loss of your fetus." I know someone that had that happen, and when she cried, she was crying over the loss of her child, not over the loss of her potential child. I call my cats my babies too, but in the same way, I'd be utterly repulsed if someone called his cat a baby, it developed a curable problem that didn't cause much suffering when cured, but instead of fixing it or giving it to a family that was willing to have it fixed, he had it put to sleep.
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:26 pm
One thing comes ot my mind is that what if the doctor is wrong? Until after the baby is born you don't know really for sure.
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