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 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:18 am
I think I'm considering to leave Gaia...seriously. This is pretty much the only forum I go to but when all that's going on is fighting and can just very well settle with any other forum. even Batsu is getting better than this place, as much sorry I am for saying this as ever.
Namida: Don't think I'm runnign away from confrontation. Emo music was born int he 70's in the Seattle area. Emo music is about emotion, yes, true, why else would it be called emo then...but Dir en grey just does not fall into the cathegory. At worst Diru can be labeled as screamo if you're soo keen on using labels.
Also, as Xule already pointed out Kyo cutting himself is a stage act. I just read a New Nippon interview with Kao on this topic.
What else was there? Oh yeah...I didn't mean to point out worse vocalists then Kyo because 1. I don't think Kyo is a bad vocalist 2. Put your hands up people if you think Hizumi can't sing.
Yeah, Hendrix plays rock, Diru plays rock, but there are categoriez IN rock music, and the two are just not in the same one.
And no, I'm not hiding behind Xule's back, I didn't ask her to write for me, I'm not her alterego but I again agree with what she wrote.
And Namida: it's one thing that you despise Kyo, it's not like I never dealt with person's sharing your view before, and yes I do realize this forum is for expressing opinion BUT I think you submitted your EXTREMELY HARSH very first post just to cause an major uproar. Do you really enjoy being bashed - more for how you say things then for what you actually say? I think not.
Again my outro: This is my very last word on the subject. period.
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:27 am
to be perfectly honest nam, i think you're being irrational and trying too hard to find insult in kyo. you made an unfair criticism that not only insults him unnecessarily, but also many other musicians, and many greats. i don't think you wrote that not expecting someone to try and defend him.
also let me point out that you went into the kyo thread recently to complain about people putting up pictures. if you don't like kyo, what are you doing wasting your time in his thread? if you don't want to see pictures, don't go into specific member threads or picture threads because they're common pagefillers, especially at times such as this when news is low. you just seem to be looking for an argument
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:28 am
Im~All~Ears Tehnically singing falls under the category of music, always has. Yes, it does. But YOU said (and I quote,"Kyo is a talented musician because of the lyrics he writes." I simply pointed out that being ale to write words does not make you a musician. Im~All~Ears But you shouldn't believe everything you read from dictionarys. Half of it is a load of bull! This wouldn't be the first time someone said something like this when I used the dictionary to prove them wrong. If you want to try and claim that being able to read and write makes you a musician now (like you could somehow play an instrument or read music), we can do that dance. I don't know why it should shock you, that has always been the definition of a musician. I also find it funny how you say this, but then later use a dictionary reference. Im~All~Ears Emo stands for Emotionally Depressed and seeing as you are a big fan of dictionary.com Emotional: subject to or easily affected by emotion or governed by emotion. (People like that will find it almost impossible to make it in the music business) Depressed: 1. sad and gloomy; dejected; downcast. 2. pressed down, or situated lower than the general surface. 3. lowered in force, amount, etc. 4. undergoing economic hardship, esp. poverty and unemployment. 5. being or measured below the standard or norm. 6. Botany, Zoology. flattened down; greater in width than in height. 7. Psychiatry. suffering from depression. And so? You've only just proved my point when I said there is a difference between emotional and "emo"(emo meaning,"Over dramatic, depressed, bloody, sad, angsty, people looking for reasons to be miserable?", but emotional meaning capable of expressing other emotions, such as those of happiness). But where do you get these assumptions about the music business from? Im~All~Ears ... I never said any of that ... Infact that had no relevence to what I said. I said that just because someone can't read music means nothing. Some can, some can't but you can't tell who can and who can't just from listening to them and it doesn't define whether they are good musicians. Like Isel's last post, if I had listened to that without knowing he can't read music I wouldn't have been able to tell. Actually it does, because people who are better educated in music, know more about music, and are more versatile as musicians. Take a look at what I bolded in my most recent post to him. And seeing as knowing things about music usually has a direct affect on your musical composition capabilities, knowing things about music is crucial if you are in that business. You can often tell by the quality of the music written by an individual how versed they are in music. People who know more about music generally tend to have music that is more complex, and has more substance to it (like classical music). People who know less about music tend to have more simplistic, repetitive original pieces (like Linkin Park). Im~All~Ears Plenty of musicians can, plenty of them can't. It's a two sided argument. No it isn't. Seeing as the definition of musician is "One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.", if you cannot compose music or play an instrument (voice included as an instrument), that pretty much makes you not a musician. Like saying "Plenty of english-speaking peple can speak english, plenty can't". No, you either can or you can't. If you can't, you can't be considered an english-speaking person. Im~All~Ears Lyrics = Singing = Music = Musician Flawed logic. Just because a person can write lyrics doesn't mean they can sing or play/write music. Just because a person is good at writing music doesn't mean they can play an instrument, sing, or write lyrics. Just because a person is good at playing an instrument doesn't mean they can write lyrics, sing, or compose music. Just because a person can sing doesn't mean they can write lyrics, play an instrument, or compose music. You get what I mean. Lyrics aren't even always used for singing, nor are they always used in music (like poetry, for example). So I say again, flawed logic. Im~All~Ears If you question whether or not he is a musician because of what dictionary.com has told you... Well then I'm not sure you know anything of which you're talking about... My question of wether or not he is a musician is based on just what I said it was (in case you have already forgotten),"...I believe he has zero musical talent....Kyo doesn't even play an instrument, and I have serious doubts as to whether or not he can even read music." not that you flawed logic undoes dictionary.com's definition of "musician".
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:31 am
Xule][neiyu namida have you any idea how many greats you're insulting?
couldn't read music:
dimebag
jimi hendrix
-two of the world's top guitarists
singers that don't/didn't play an instrument ['not musicians']:
ozzy osbourne
pavarotti [and almost every other opera singer]
phil anselmo
axl rose
freddy mercury
I don't really see how I'm insulting any guitarists. Because mosts guitarists who become successful in the music industry can usually read music, and if they didn't really know anything about music to being with, they are often forced to learn (as I have heard the same happened with Blondie's vocalist). And I would consider the voice just another instrument. (although Axl Rose and Ozzy aren't exactly Pavarotti). I'll bet you Pavarotti could read music, too, and then be able to emulate it with his voice (as someone may do with a piano or a guitar, the reason I see the voice as an instrument)
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:43 am
PrivateLeesh I think I'm considering to leave Gaia...seriously. This is pretty much the only forum I go to but when all that's going on is fighting and can just very well settle with any other forum. even Batsu is getting better than this place, as much sorry I am for saying this as ever. You say that as if it's my fault 8 people have jumped on my for posting my opinion. PrivateLeesh Namida: Don't think I'm runnign away from confrontation. Emo music was born int he 70's in the Seattle area. Emo music is about emotion, yes, true, why else would it be called emo then...but Dir en grey just does not fall into the cathegory. At worst Diru can be labeled as screamo if you're soo keen on using labels. You're wrong, even by what Dir en grey has said themselves. They used to have a thing on their website (that was there at least from their "the final" format to their WTD format that is since no longer there after they've changed everything around, and no longer have a description of the band under "band". You may or may not have seen it. I know you haven't been listening to them for very long) that said that their whole purpose as a band was to express despair (in a nutshell). More specifically, emo music is about depressed emotions. PrivateLeesh Also, as Xule already pointed out Kyo cutting himself is a stage act. I just read a New Nippon interview with Kao on this topic. Yes, but it is an emo thing to do. PrivateLeesh What else was there? Oh yeah...I didn't mean to point out worse vocalists then Kyo because 1. I don't think Kyo is a bad vocalist 2. Put your hands up people if you think Hizumi can't sing. Yeah, Hendrix plays rock, Diru plays rock, but there are categoriez IN rock music, and the two are just not in the same one. None the less, they are still in the same genre. But seeing as kyo is in question, and Kyo doesn't write Diru's music, I don't see that it matters. PrivateLeesh And no, I'm not hiding behind Xule's back, I didn't ask her to write for me, I'm not her alterego but I again agree with what she wrote. And Namida: it's one thing that you despise Kyo, it's not like I never dealt with person's sharing your view before, and yes I do realize this forum is for expressing opinion BUT I think you submitted your EXTREMELY HARSH very first post just to cause an major uproar. Do you really enjoy being bashed - more for how you say things then for what you actually say? I think not. Extemely harsh is relative. You may think it's harsh if you're a kyo fan (in which case you are predisposed to have a biased view), but I think it is accurate. I and I have proceeded to point out why I think it is accurate (as far as him screaming and writing emo lyrics), and no one has really been able to "prove me wrong". Meaning that I was really just identifying his style of vocals and lyrics. If it sounds harsh, but is indeed true, maybe that says something more about Kyo than anything else? PrivateLeesh Again my outro: This is my very last word on the subject. period.
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:44 am
I can't be bothered to quote all the crap you just put so here:
1. I apologise, I meant lyrics he writes and then performs. That was a fault on my part. However, the words you write may make you an artist.
2. If multiple people are saying this to you, maybe you might start to think about it XD. That wasn't in direct response to that definition, I mean you cannot soully rely on it because you'll end up looking the fool one day because of how UNRELIABLE it is and I used the dictionary reference as a joke to you.
3. 'emo meaning,"Over dramatic, depressed, bloody, sad, angsty, people looking for reasons to be miserable?"' That's your definition... but if you had already decided that, why waste your time asking everyone to define EMO for you?
A) I gave you a perfectly legit response, that being the definition of EMO: Emotionally Depressed.
B) Anyone who knows anything about the music business knows you can't get into it if you take things to heart. Same as comedy and acting, if you get shot down you have to get up, you can't spend the next few months being 'emo' in the corner. Everyone knows you will never get through that way. Numerous artists have said how crap the music business is and how you cannot take things to heart. It is common knowledge.
4. Not nessacarily, you are stereotyping. Musicians in heavy metal for example, tend to be total outcasts from society, having had some experience which has made them resent something. Many of them get in the business by chance and many musicians who are self taught and know very little music come out with the best type of music. I honestly believe you made half of that argument up because you have no back up for it, wheras I have heard in hundreds of interviews how musicians were self taught, don't know how to read music and so on. Knowing things about the music BUSINESS is crucial in the business, it's rare that people question you on your actual musical abilities.
5. or
And it's nothing like that... It's not essential for a musician to be able to read music. A lot of it is done computer wise. They record it onto the computer by just playing it into the computer, it requires no ability to read the music you are making.
6. In Kyo's CASE which is what we're bloody talking about. Don't skip onto different bloody cases. KYO DOES write lyrics = KYO DOES sing = KYO DOES make music = KYO IS a musician.
7. You've just written about 2 paragraphs on how 'Kyo's not a musician'.
Don't change your subject so many times, all it shows is you have no idea what you are talking about...
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:45 am
namida_no_chi Xule][neiyu namida have you any idea how many greats you're insulting?
couldn't read music:
dimebag
jimi hendrix
-two of the world's top guitarists
singers that don't/didn't play an instrument ['not musicians']:
ozzy osbourne
pavarotti [and almost every other opera singer]
phil anselmo
axl rose
freddy mercury
I don't really see how I'm insulting any guitarists. And I would consider the voice just another instrument. (although Axl Rose and Ozzy aren't exactly Pavarotti). I'll bet you Pavarotti could read music, too, and then be able to emulate it with his voice (as someone may do with a piano or a guitar, the reason I see the voice as an instrument) Of course Pavarotti could, he was freaking classically trained! Plus I know a million pianists including myself you can't read music. We have to learn the piece by what our fingers do and memorize the sequence, so we can play without the music.
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:49 am
Im~All~Ears namida_no_chi Xule][neiyu namida have you any idea how many greats you're insulting?
couldn't read music:
dimebag
jimi hendrix
-two of the world's top guitarists
singers that don't/didn't play an instrument ['not musicians']:
ozzy osbourne
pavarotti [and almost every other opera singer]
phil anselmo
axl rose
freddy mercury
I don't really see how I'm insulting any guitarists. And I would consider the voice just another instrument. (although Axl Rose and Ozzy aren't exactly Pavarotti). I'll bet you Pavarotti could read music, too, and then be able to emulate it with his voice (as someone may do with a piano or a guitar, the reason I see the voice as an instrument) Of course Pavarotti could, he was freaking classically trained! Plus I know a million pianists including myself you can't read music. We have to learn the piece by what our fingers do and memorize the sequence, so we can play without the music. yes, that is the first step in learning how to read. And eventually you get used to seeing the notes on the sheet of music, and knowing how to play it. That is how you come to read music. So I wouldn't say you can't read music, but perhaps (and I'm just taking a stab in the dark, based on you saying you play by your finger position) just at a beginner level.
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:53 am
namida_no_chi Im~All~Ears namida_no_chi Xule][neiyu namida have you any idea how many greats you're insulting?
couldn't read music:
dimebag
jimi hendrix
-two of the world's top guitarists
singers that don't/didn't play an instrument ['not musicians']:
ozzy osbourne
pavarotti [and almost every other opera singer]
phil anselmo
axl rose
freddy mercury
I don't really see how I'm insulting any guitarists. And I would consider the voice just another instrument. (although Axl Rose and Ozzy aren't exactly Pavarotti). I'll bet you Pavarotti could read music, too, and then be able to emulate it with his voice (as someone may do with a piano or a guitar, the reason I see the voice as an instrument) Of course Pavarotti could, he was freaking classically trained! Plus I know a million pianists including myself you can't read music. We have to learn the piece by what our fingers do and memorize the sequence, so we can play without the music. yes, that is the first step in learning how to read. And eventually you get used to seeing the notes on the sheet of music, and knowing how to play it. That is how you come to read music. So I wouldn't say you can't read music, but perhaps (and I'm just taking a stab in the dark, based on you saying you play by your finger position) just at a beginner level. I cannot read music except if I have an hour to myself and am allowed to write all the notes on the sheet. I can't sight read either and I have no intention of bothering to learn as I am just as capable of playing as someone who can read music. My brother and I both play bass and guitar neither of us being able to read tab or any other music.
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:16 pm
ack this is stupid. all over an assumption that they're comparing kyo to jimi. it's not possbile the mag just happens to have an article on kyo and an article on jimi?
get someone who can read japanese to read what it says there
anywhore, no-ones getting anywhere with what they're saying. so it looks like this thread is just one big argument now. if i was mod i'd lock it. unfortunately i'm not so i'm just gonna ask that everyone STFU and break to their respective corners of the guild, if you please
before one of us goes too far
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:20 pm
Im~All~Ears I can't be bothered to quote all the crap you just put so here: 1. I apologise, I meant lyrics he writes and then performs. That was a fault on my part. However, the words you write may make you an artist. Yes, but then the quality of artist after that is up for question. But no, writing words does not make you a musician. Im~All~Ears 2. If multiple people are saying this to you, maybe you might start to think about it XD. That wasn't in direct response to that definition, I mean you cannot soully rely on it because you'll end up looking the fool one day because of how UNRELIABLE it is and I used the dictionary reference as a joke to you. Yes, I'm sure if I went to a Britney Spears thread and said that she sucks, a multitude of people would probably tell me that she doesn't. That doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means people like her. But alas, that definition of musician is accurate. A musician, based on the suffix, we can assume is a person who does something with music. Well what is music? It is a series of notes (sounds of different pitches) that are arranged to make songs. Well what can you do with music? You can make music by either playing or writing it. Well we already explained how notes are arranged, and that is how one would write music, but how can one play music? By using a device (an instrument, or one's own voice) that is capable of creating different pitched sounds, the notes. As you can see, the dictionary.com definition of musician is not exactly far-fetched. Im~All~Ears 3. 'emo meaning,"Over dramatic, depressed, bloody, sad, angsty, people looking for reasons to be miserable?"' That's your definition... but if you had already decided that, why waste your time asking everyone to define EMO for you? Quote: In the even that someone has some sort of different, non applicable definition. Im~All~Ears A) I gave you a perfectly legit response, that being the definition of EMO: Emotionally Depressed. That you did. It also goes along quite well wit my definition. Are you trying to say in all of this that kyo's lyrics aren't emotionally depressed? Im~All~Ears B) Anyone who knows anything about the music business knows you can't get into it if you take things to heart. Same as comedy and acting, if you get shot down you have to get up, you can't spend the next few months being 'emo' in the corner. Everyone knows you will never get through that way. Numerous artists have said how crap the music business is and how you cannot take things to heart. It is common knowledge. Not really. Curt Cobain being a fine example of someone who had success in the music industry, but obviously took things to heart. And who says in order to be emo (or emotionally depressed) You have to be curled up in a corner? Im~All~Ears 4. Not nessacarily, you are stereotyping. Musicians in heavy metal for example, tend to be total outcasts from society, having had some experience which has made them resent something. Many of them get in the business by chance and many musicians who are self taught and know very little music come out with the best type of music. Although "best" is relative, because there really can be no "best" music. There can, however, be complicated and simplistic music. but seeing as I just showed Kyo is not a musician, I don't see how that relates to him. Im~All~Ears I honestly believe you made half of that argument up because you have no back up for it, wheras I have heard in hundreds of interviews how musicians were self taught, don't know how to read music and so on. Knowing things about the music BUSINESS is crucial in the business, it's rare that people question you on your actual musical abilities. I've been providing examples for my argument (especially my original opinion) this entire time. You can tell when someone knows little about music, and when someone knows a lot. Like I said before, in case you didn't read it, look at classical music. Obviously (based on you comment about Pavarotti), you think people who are classically trained (as in classical music) know a lot about music. And if you look at the final results, classically music is almost always more technically complex than modern day types of music, where the artists usually know little about music (like Blink 182). Are you going to tell me a band like Blink 182 is on the same level as say, Chopin? Is Blink 182's music as complex as Chopin? Can you tell just by listening to the complexity of each types of music that one probably knows more about music than the other? are you telling me that knowing about music does not make a difference in that instance? Are you telling me that just because Blink 182 probably knows just about as much about music as most other modern day rock bands, that they're just as good as Chopin, because they're just as good as anyone else out in the 21st century music charts? What is made up about that argument? Im~All~Ears 5. orAnd it's nothing like that... It's not essential for a musician to be able to read music. A lot of it is done computer wise. They record it onto the computer by just playing it into the computer, it requires no ability to read the music you are making. And that is where you are wrong. I too do some musical compositions with computer programs, and you DO have to have at least a basic knowledge of music to even have a cohesive outcome. And you DO have to be able to know how to read it back if you ever plan to play it on say a guitar in front of an audience. if you want to be able to play any kind of piece of music you DO have to know how to read it. Im~All~Ears 6. In Kyo's CASE which is what we're bloody talking about. Don't skip onto different bloody cases. KYO DOES write lyrics = KYO DOES sing = KYO DOES make music = KYO IS a musician. But Kyo does not sing (from this point on, I'm not even going to refer to what he does as singing, I'll call it screaming, rather) BECAUSE he writes lyrics. Kyo does not scream BECAUSE he writes lyrics and so on. Screaming is not writing lyrics. So I say again, your logic is flawed. And as I said before, I have serious doubts as to whether or not he can actually read music (which throws question in to his ability to sing and write music). Im~All~Ears 7. You've just written about 2 paragraphs on how 'Kyo's not a musician'. Don't change your subject so many times, all it shows is you have no idea what you are talking about... Who's changing the subject?
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:20 pm
Xule][neiyu ack this is stupid. all over an assumption that they're comparing kyo to jimi. it's not possbile the mag just happens to have an article on kyo and an article on jimi?
get someone who can read japanese to read what it says there
anywhore, no-ones getting anywhere with what they're saying. so it looks like this thread is just one big argument now. if i was mod i'd lock it. unfortunately i'm not so i'm just gonna ask that everyone STFU and break to their respective corners of the guild, if you please
before one of us goes too far
*runs off to Kaoru thread*
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:21 pm
Xule][neiyu ack this is stupid. all over an assumption that they're comparing kyo to jimi. it's not possbile the mag just happens to have an article on kyo and an article on jimi?
get someone who can read japanese to read what it says there
anywhore, no-ones getting anywhere with what they're saying. so it looks like this thread is just one big argument now. if i was mod i'd lock it. unfortunately i'm not so i'm just gonna ask that everyone STFU and break to their respective corners of the guild, if you please
before one of us goes too far I agree. I don't understand why everyone felt compelled to jump on me, and then act like all of the ensuing arguments were my fault, or like it's my fault they started arguing with me.
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:45 pm
namida_no_chi [.Dix.ana.du.] DizzyDazeyDani namida_no_chi Ew, are they seriously trying to compare Kyo and Jimi?????? NONONONONONONONONONN. Kyo doesn't even have any business on the same page as jimi. stressed Not until the day he can raise Jimi Hendrix from the dead, and then beat him in an all-out free style guitar battle. But of course we all know Kyo is only good at screaming like a spoiled teenage girl, and writing Emo kid, ranting vlog on you tube, I like to cut myself on the weekends lyrics. Okay, Kyo and Jimi Hendrix are not goood comparisons, but...C'mon, was that hate even necissary. That was someone elses opinion, as what you were saying about Kyo, but why bash him so harshly just because you do not agree with that interviewer(s) opinion?
Moreover: why insult Kyo on a Dir en grey guild?
>.> That's bound to lead to ugly bruises.
XD aw, you haven't been an active member here very long, have you? No but really. Kyo is not all there is to Dir en grey.
Of course I know that Kyo is not all there is to Dir en grey! But... to listen to Dir en grey, must one not have an appreciation for his voice (it is, afterall a significant part of their music)? That opinion said regardless of whether or not in agreement with the musician's personality, appearence, etc. That is, at least, what I would expect people who are fans of Dir en grey's music to do... I mean, to like Dir en grey, should not each of its members be admired and respected-- and if not admired and respected equally, still admired and respected to some degree?
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:20 pm
Man, does any of this arguing lead to anything significant? I mean, if you stop fueling her fire, Namida will stop complaining and at least (via internet) leave Kyo be. I mean, it's not like, even if she stops being stubborn and hating on Kyo unfairly, it's not like you are going to win a nobel prize for doing it. The best thing to do is let things be. Even kyo himself knows that you cannot make everyone love you and (towards Namida, whom I KNOW will read this despite how much you hate Kyo) you do not need to comletely diss and complain and BS about someone when you should know that not everyone is going to be the way you want them to be. JUST because you do not like it does not make it bad and you're only enraging people by being so simple-minded about life. Life is much to short to argue and rage over trivial matters like this and why are you wasting it when the person you are trying so hard to insult will NEVER see this, let alone visit this website. Let us not also forget, Namida, that while he is so awful and emo and masochistic, he is famous for his lyrics and musical talents, not to mention his artistic abilities, and you are not. Obviously it amounts to something, does it not? This is the last I'll speak on it and if you continue to complain instead of complain for a valid reason, I'll report you to Gaia before you cause any more harm. Is that a deal? I'm sick and tired of all this conflict over something so insignificant.
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