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 Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:33 pm
I'm still shakey on the strengh thing. We have Superman casualy carying 175-180 tons vs. Super Sajin 1 Goku casualy lifting 160 tons. I slightly dout Goku's going to be at SSJ1 level for very long. Even the Superman feat isn't very good, since he was "holding back" at the time(I'm presenting evidence aginst myself again, I really need to stop that). Plus they were both casual, so even in their current state they could do more.
But whatever, carry on. As long as this thread actualy progresses somewhere.
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:32 pm
I think I missed something here. When do we see SSJ Goku casually lifting 160 tons?
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:18 pm
Saiyan Master Vegeta Koju_the_dark_knight Saiyan Master Vegeta Koju_the_dark_knight Nope Goku doesn't have to lock onto a power to use it. All he needs to do is think of someone and he can get there. The problem is conentrating on that person. I see a slight contradiction in your point . . . ----- Koju_the_dark_knight Nope Goku doesn't have to lock onto a power to use it. Otherwise known as not having to find an energy signature. Koju_the_dark_knight All he needs to do is think of someone and he can get there. So there's no energy searching involved, like you said? Koju_the_dark_knight The problem is conentrating on that person. Otherwise known as pinpointing their energy signature. no...Just thinking of someone does not nessicarly mean they have to find an energy signature. Like if he wanted to go to kami's lookout all he'd have to do is think of the place and he could be there. No, he has to concentrate on an energy signature, not just make an image pop up in his mind. If he really does just need to think of a place, why do you think he searched for Bulma's energy out of everybody on Earth in order to get to Capsule Corp?
Everywhere Gokou has teleported there has been someone there.
He CANNOT just teleport to an uninhabited planet like Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Neptune, etc.Saiyan Master Vegeta Alright, so Supes takes a slight lead in strength, and Goku takes a slight lead in speed. What's left to determine this battle: Endurance and durability. If I recall correctly, I believe we previously agreed that Superman is more battle-intelligent than Goku, however this is canceled out by Goku's superior experience. Before we start to debate who is greater than who in endurance and durability, let's lay out the facts for each person so that there's less opportunity for error. Note: Though we've already discussed endurance and durability, we should expand on our previous ideas due to information changes in other categories, and just so it's set in stone.
If whenever a thread just dies it becomes very boring.
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:21 pm
Sure, I'm fine with those things.
Again, its only a slight leeway; both ways.
I'm pretty sure that they have both been smashed through rocks and buildings.
Lol... rofl
This will be tough.
And I'm sure that "planet-busting" hits will come up.
Let me just say, I STILL believe these blasts take great endurance to endure, however, Superman could probably take most of them as well.
["most"]
Umm...Goku's been in lava, no? [explosion-emminent/Namek?]
Superman has taken the [was it the "infinity matrix?" That pain thing]
Although not a physical feat, it is a mental one.
(I believe both of the above to be COMPLETELY transversal; that is, they can be done by the other person. So pretty much, I added nothing to this debate. =P)
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:46 pm
I'm a dog with a bone on this one, but DBZ characters are well known for not taking planet busters. In the four cases where conscious or semi-conscious characters have been at the brunt end of such attacks, one was fatal, another was a coupling of an indirect hit and luck and the final two had regenerators on the receiving end.
The four instances I'm talking about are
- Goku being at ground zero of Cell's Detonation
- Freeza's nearly lifeless corpse on Namek as it exploded.
- Cell exploding on King Kai's planet
- Chibi Buu blowing up Earth.
Freeza can be discounted because he didn't actually take a planet busting attack but some how survived one blowing up under him by sheer luck.
Cell and Buu are regenerators, thus they can be discredited once more.
This leaves Goku's second Death in DBZ at the hands of Cell's bomb.
So, if Animated Superman has any cataloged occurrences of Surviving a definitive Planet Buster, he takes the contest for Durability.
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:53 pm
As for Superman's heat vision I've come to this conclusion.
He fire's the blast with enough force to push back someone of his own strength ( Amazo before he became a God)and with enough power to penatrate the skin of someone who could withstand a nuclear explosion. (Doomsday) So from that I can Surmise that Superman's heat vision has the destructive force of a nuclear attack packed into laser thin beam and with 100+ tons of force behind them. So I'd say Supes would be able to deal with a planet bustig Kamehaha atleast until Goku started going all out. And just out of curiosity didn't Frieza or somebody push a planet busting blast back with their hands?
As for Superman's endurance I think his heritedge would help him there. Galatea demonstrated that those with Kryptonian DNA had a accelarated healing factor.
And Rikeen it was the "Agony Matrix"
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:05 pm
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:17 am
Right then...
@SMV-I copyed the 160 tons from Enigma's post. Now that I think of it, the weights were 80 tons.
@Rikeen-Since we're apparently only using manga canon, the lava thing never happened.
@Enigma-No one has ever sucksessfuly deflected a planet buster using any part of their body(though I think that many are capable of it). Cell tryed to do so with Vageta`s planet busting Final Flash, and his arm got vaped on contact.
@Reaper-In my fairly expansive experience of animated Superman, superman has never performed or said he was cappable of a planet bluster.
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:57 am
If it really is 80 tons, then I think the 160 tons came into the conversation under the idea that benching weight is double lifting weight, or something like that. But that's just a guess so I could be wrong.
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:17 am
That proves very little SMV. Vegeta is not Cell. He's been known to brag and overestimate his own abilities and those of others just up until the point of mid-Buu Saga.
And don't bring up the "They know what Ki attacks can do 'cause they use them themselves" card. This is early series DBZ. Vegeta was the strongest opponent Goku had faced of yet. So seeing the high Ki level of Vegeta's Galic Gun, of course he would assume that it'd be highly devastating to the Earth.
And it can also be argued that the two Ki attacks colliding and holding off against each other, even with the final boost at the end equated to the overall blow being softened.
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:29 am
The `Reaper Man` Vegeta is not Cell. He's been known to brag and overestimate his own abilities and those of others just up until the point of mid-Buu Saga. From what I've noticed, Cell brags about himself and downplays his opponent at least as much as Vegeta. Not really important, I just wanted to point that out.
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:38 am
The `Reaper Man` That proves very little SMV. Vegeta is not Cell. He's been known to brag and overestimate his own abilities and those of others just up until the point of mid-Buu Saga.
And don't bring up the "They know what Ki attacks can do 'cause they use them themselves" card. This is early series DBZ. Vegeta was the strongest opponent Goku had faced of yet. So seeing the high Ki level of Vegeta's Galic Gun, of course he would assume that it'd be highly devastating to the Earth.
And it can also be argued that the two Ki attacks colliding and holding off against each other, even with the final boost at the end equated to the overall blow being softened. So your saying Vegeta can't blow up a planet with his strongest attack even though someone much weaker could make bottomless pits with ease? Thats Nappa who can do that. I figure if NAPPA wanted to he couldv'e blown up earth but they were looking for the dragonballs so why would he? But your right about the last point, the blast would be sofened to an extent meaning saiyan saga Vegeta most likely can't take a planet bustling attack, but remember this is early dbz like you said. I'm sure by the time Vegeta is even with first form frieza he could take a planet buster,though he couldn't survive the planet explosing because he can't breathe in space. So by the time Goku goes ssj he could defently take the attack consider final form frieza was way stronger than Vegeta at that time, who I estimate could take a planet busting attack. Yet Frieza couldn't even hurt Goku until he went 100% and Goku was messing Frieza up and you must admit, It sure as hell would take alot to hurt someone who could survive a planet exploding. ---- Now I'm going to go back to an old issue about the 40 tons thing. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Goku say,after he turned ssj that the wights felt like a feather? If thats true, then double that should theorically be like 2 feathers. But we'll never know what he could truly pick up if he tried. If 40 tons was easy and near nothing in ssj then in ssj3 he should be able to lift lots more.
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:41 am
Quote: Lava which Goku feared falling into in his fight with Frieza was like a swimming pool for Superman being that him and Doomsday fought in it like it was a muddy puddle. Neither of them showed any effects of being injured or even phased as a result. Goku on the other hand freaked out and was obviously on in pain when his pants caught a small fire and ran around like a chicken. Mind you lava is alot hotter than fire is. Well part of Goku's thing was comic relief and Goku wasn't even ssj during that time. Remember, Goku is a somewhat comic-relief character so.... Quote: Superman took Brainiacs force beams to the chest which could easily shatter Mountains So could Raditz's double sunday and that was the very beginning of dbz. Quote: In his fight with Captain Marvel. Superman casually knocked down Sky Scrapers with single punches When Goku turned ssj3 he made buildings shatter amoung other things and that was just powering up. Quote: Superman stated to Darkseid that in all past events he was holding back his true abilities in fear of hurting or killing someone. After seeing that Darkseid wasn't as fragile as other beings tend to be. He proceeded to punch Darkseid so hard it caused a shock wave that shoot the Earth. Darkseid went flying through exactly seven buildings without losing momentum before he was hammerd out of the sky by Supes leaving a crater the size of half a city block and Even then Superman was trying not to kill him. Goku stated that in ssj3 he couldv'e beat fat buu easily but he just wanted to give goten and Trunks something to do. If I remember right, Fat buu once ran through a large city, eliminating a large portian of buildings much more than 7 without loosing any speed. Quote: Superman has taken hit from people as strong as him if not stronger and has always come out with nothing more than scratches and bruises. He takes hits from people who can toss planes around and take shells from a tank and regularly beats them. I don't think your first statement is quite right. Plus even Raditz easily took Piccolo's ki attack which was most likely tougher than Roshi's moon busting kamehameha and didn't even have a sctratch and I think destroying a moon is much stronger of an attack than a tank's attack. Quote: In one episode the Flash was stated by Sinestro to be moving and thinking at light speed. Superman ran in a foot race with the Flash in a charity even 'Fastest Man Alive' and stood on even running ground with him. On a globe they where moving at such insane speed that you could actually see thier outlines moving on the globe. Dragonball Z characters casually move like outlines. When they go thier fastest they usually can't even be seen, just giant shockwaves or explosions.
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:09 am
The `Reaper Man` That proves very little SMV. Vegeta is not Cell. He's been known to brag and overestimate his own abilities and those of others just up until the point of mid-Buu Saga.
And don't bring up the "They know what Ki attacks can do 'cause they use them themselves" card. This is early series DBZ. Vegeta was the strongest opponent Goku had faced of yet. So seeing the high Ki level of Vegeta's Galic Gun, of course he would assume that it'd be highly devastating to the Earth.
And it can also be argued that the two Ki attacks colliding and holding off against each other, even with the final boost at the end equated to the overall blow being softened.
Either Raditz or Vegita stated that most Saiya-jin elite fighters can produce planet busting attacks with ease. ONE of the reasons Frieza was practically pissing himself about to the point where he felt the Planet Vegita and it's inhabitants "have to go".
Of course, I also agree with you (Reaper) on the last point about the force of the ki blast being softened.
Then again we've already seen a Kamehameha destroy a moon, Kame Sen'nin's so Gokou's sure as heck should be strong enough to take a planet.
I estimate Gokou's power-level during the Saiya-jin Arc being anywhere from 10,000 to 15,000 where as Kame Sen'nin destroyed the moon at only 139. HUGE difference.
Then there is the fact that Vegita did NOT lose easily so he has to be in the ballpark range of 10,000 to 15,000 to fight Gokou evenly.
By logic if Gokou should be more than able to produce planet busting attacks then so should Vegita.
To use SMVegeta's equation.
Kame Sen'nin's Kamehameha = Moon Buster
Gokou's Kamehameha > Kame Sen'nin's Kamehameha
Gokou's Kamehameha = Planet Buster (?)
Gokou's Kamehameha < Vegita's Gallick Gun
BUT
Vegita's Gallick Gun > Kame Sen'nin's Kamehameha (Like Gokou's Kamehameha with Vegita himself being roughly 9/10 as strong as Gokou himself.)
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:16 am
@ Reaper:The `Reaper Man` The Fierce Deity Deity wasn't adding to a dispute...he was pointing out that Vegeta could indeed destroy a planet, in case you were implying that he could not... . =; Just a nice little conversation I remembered between you and Deity. Seems like a sudden change of opinion on your part. The `Reaper Man` That proves very little SMV. Vegeta is not Cell. He's been known to brag and overestimate his own abilities and those of others just up until the point of mid-Buu Saga. Right, so Toriyama had Vegeta repeat several times in some fashion that Earth is a gonner, all so he could be labeled a 'liar', even when nobody doubted him or proved him wrong. The `Reaper Man` And don't bring up the "They know what Ki attacks can do 'cause they use them themselves" card. This is early series DBZ. Vegeta was the strongest opponent Goku had faced of yet. So seeing the high Ki level of Vegeta's Galic Gun, of course he would assume that it'd be highly devastating to the Earth. Thank you. I wasn't planning to bring that up. The `Reaper Man` And it can also be argued that the two Ki attacks colliding and holding off against each other, even with the final boost at the end equated to the overall blow being softened. I don't see such an argument going far. I believe it would result in a battle of personal theories that don't have enough grounds.
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