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 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:17 pm
Ah well, animators don't get weekends...I've been in the studio most of the day.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:20 pm
well get me a job working with you and I'll be right next to ya working and we can talk razz
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:23 pm
I wont be around tomorrow, going up north for Thanksgiving, will be back on Monday.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:24 pm
Isn't thanksgiving next month?
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:28 pm
Canada, Jason. Canada. Ours is this weekend.
lol I don't know if you've noticed, J. But talking doesn't equal drawing.
But I don't have a job yet, I'm in my final year of classes......still don't get any weekends.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:30 pm
I can talk and draw at the same time. do it alot designing tattoo art for friends razz and why do you canadaians always have things so back asswards. Thanksgiving is november, dang it! razz
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:53 pm
'drawing' and 'animating' are a liiiiiittle bit different. Chatting while animating leads to sloppy pages.
And why? So that no one has to deal with the whole "Family? Or Football?" this way you can do both and no one gets angry.
..........and just to counter that 'canadians' comment....how come you Americans can't pronounce poutine? blaugh
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:09 pm
Cause your supposed to have family AND football. everyone eating in front of the TV razz
and poutine sounds like a french word. we don't like french words. if we wanted to speak french, we'd go to France.
and you can animate, and talk. I can hold a conversation without looking at someone. you just talk, while drawing your cells, and you can occasionally look up when your through for a second to establish eye contact as needed. Same way I play my online games. I have my eyes and figures working as a full gamer unit, controlling my character in battle and movement and typing orders to my group mights while holding conversations if needed to argue with parental units :p
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:14 pm
How terribly racist....
and poutine is only the most delicious thing in the world. Fries, cheese, and gravey. I've probably mentioned it a hundred times here before. i don't usually miss a chance to ask an american about poutine.
*shrugs* That just means your a little more left-brained than I am. My friends would tell you if I try to talk to them while playing on the PS2, I kind of just trail off with "and ums..." until I forget that I was talking at all.
So maybe YOU can talk and animate, but I sure as hell can't.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:18 pm
we just call those 'cheese fries' down here heh. and it's not racist. it's culturalist.
aww. well then, I could talk, and you can just smile and nod and listen to me rant and rave. I do that when doing art. usually cussing or ranting about why something won't move like I want it to...but that's 3D. cells is probably much easier to control that sort of thing.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:39 pm
A culturalist would accept and embrace the culture, not ignore and disgard it. Either way, it was still kinda offensive. *is part french* But I'm not one to hold a grudge off of sometihng so pittiful. ^^ Se we are playing fun here.
And why would you call that 'cheese fries'? It doesn't imply that gravey is involved. It would be like calling chilli fries "kidney been fries" unstead.
No, it's not much easier, but I don't think it's much harder either. My experiance with 3D thus far is limited, so I can't really argue properly. Both have their pros and cons. 3D...you don't have to worry aobut space and size. You're model doesn't shrink or grow, and pictoral perspective is simply there. 2D requires more of an active mind to stay on model, so to speak. However, it's easier to squash and stretch a 2d character, as we aren't constrained to the characters rigging, however poor or well done it may be.
I can however, work from what I see of the gamer students, who don't have much if any traditional trading. But that isn't much of a fair assement either, besides recognizing that they don't know what anything actually looks like....and that they don't shower....
Curiosity: how long would it take you to animate....say....one second of footage. Nothing too crazy now...lets say someone taking a couple of steps.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:48 pm
in 3d? 1 second is 60 frames. in 3d, I have the character. then I gotta put in his skeleton. arrange the effect of the bones so the bones move like a real person would, then create the range of influence per bone. if you do it wrong, the legs/ankles/hips twist and bend like rubber or parts move and others don't so it looks like you stuck a pipe in thier leg that's stretching thier leg muscle in entirely unnatural position.
Now if everything goes right, in 3d, prolly take 4-5 hours. it can however take 1-2 days, easy.
now if I were to do it in 2D...prolly 2-3 hours, max.
and it's cheese fries because for us, gravy is a topping, not a part of the dish itself. cause it's cheese and fries, and then gravy, or we could put chilli on it, or sour cream, or whatever. razz
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:19 pm
You have to deal with that when the model has already been rigged? the 4-5 hours, is that rendering included? Are you adding the time it might take to creat your environemnts, camera, lighting, um...what do you call it...i forget what the word for creating textures is (I've only have 3D class since the beggining of sept)
Do you actually do any action anaylsis? Slugging? Do you actually stand up and walk around, see how it feels? Do you ask people to walk for you? At different paces, and weights? Do you work out your keys in ruff before doing the final?
I went in at...well, it was bfore 1 pm but I'm gonna say 1 to make it simple. Didn't get out until 7:30...with two hours taken for errands and dinner...so four and a half hours to make a squirrel take two jumps and straighten up (you know how squirrels run in that cute, bouncey way...two of those)
That is, after I spent about six...six?...I think it was six...two 3 hour classes I THINK...eh, lets say six. Six hours working out the action and the posing. Not to mention all that reeeeeeaaaaly tough procrastinating I did. Think it took me maybe half an hour to slug this morning. And the research I did...(pff....google -> squirrel or squirrel run cycle)
HAHA, you know, I really don't think that 3d is any harder or easier than 2d (although I do believe to the outmost that you have more of an advantage if you have 2d training. The best 3d movies are made my 2d animators. Incredibles? Most of them where 2d disney animators that Bird (or Byrd?) took on....unless I am completely wrong which is of course possible.
I think I just like hearing the sound of my keyboard.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:44 pm
there are no 'already rigged' models in 3d. the best you get is a fully formed model. all skeletal work/animation work based from that is done by hand. the problem with getting someone to wlk for you, or walking, is that while that works for 2d pretty easy. it doesn't for 3d so much because while I may get a better idea of how to body moves, if the range of effect per bone isn't correct, it won't work. you can literally spend 3+ hours per bone, trying to get the bone's range of effect to effect all the area it needs to without screwing up the effects of other bones.
each has a minimum of 3 bones, average is actually around 6. one for the thigh, one for the calf. one for the ball of the foot, one for the arch, one for the toe section. you can use 1 for the foot but that's mostly just for cartoonish animations.
I did a 30 second 3d animation in school. it literally took 3 months. and to be honest, if it wasn't for that class ending in those last three month, prolly would have taken 4 or 5. I still didn't have the kneeling characters legs right, there was no facial animation at all, and the hair animations looked like s**t. and the only animation in the whole thing was the kneeling characters arms, one character's ponytail, and camera movement. so 4 hours a day, 5 days a week. so about 20 hours a week for 12 weeks...so roughly 240 hours. 10 days total for 30 seconds of minimum animation and shitty minimum at that.
probably take much less time to do 2d because the control of the process is much easier to manage. if I screw up a leg position, I just erase it and redo it. if I screw it up in animation on 3d, not only do I first have to render it which can take some time to see the screw up, rather than flip pages, but then I gotta figure out where the screw up is, how to fix it, and then how that fix effects the rest of the animating parts.
and you notice, most of the 'big' 3d animations are cartoony. Shrek/Incredibles/Cars. Ask the people that did FF:the spirits within or FF: advent children about the difficulty and you'll get drastically different answers I'll wager.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:05 pm
Forgive me for not understanding, but you have to set range of effect for every scene? You can't set it just per model?
And for as litte as I do know, I still disagree about action analysis. If you don't know how the body moves you aren't going to get a good animation, 3d just means that this range of effect must be dealt with also.
And I certainly know how long animation takes. The quota for a full length feature will is only a few seconds a week. (maybe more? I'm not good at retaining number information...) And that's a full time job, nine to five. Granted, for something that is not student work and also 3d, the quota would probably be more or less the same.
And if I screw up a leg position...I don't usualy have to earase one frame. I usually have to erase...12. (I usually animate on 2s...animating on 1s is being held until 3rd term). And ah flipping pages, I love you. Still not good at it though. ^^
All in all the time frame probably pretty much evens out, process are just different, but eaqually as frustrating. Hell I don't even beilieve that flash is easy. Just like anything though, it's just 'easier/nicer' if you know the program.
Shrek is bad for stiff characters, but the timing is pretty genious. And i wouldn't doubt it. I certianly never claimed that 3d was easy. BUT...I also think that it's a waist of time to try to animated something in 3d and have it look as realistic as possible...I usually find it boring and would rather be watching a live action.
In FFAC's case...it had a fanbase to work off of. And probably anything was better than the low poly characters that you used in the gameplay. And Sepheroth deing a second time...ooo dolly. sweet. (poke wink )
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