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 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:35 pm
Kuroudo Akabane rikeen90 The LS and IT thing is repetitive. The attitude behind your post set people off more than the content of it. Just because you are on opposite sides with someone, does not mean you're enemies. Goku moves at 99% LS without IT. WITH IT he moves infinitely faster and slower than LS. Goku has a delay of 99% LS (184419.57303/mps) before he can initiate his IT. [Hand to forhead] Thus, he can sometimes move much faster than Superman, and sometimes slower. Wrong. First and foremost I apologize it I pressed some buttons. Mind you it was NOT intended that way. Alas, debating can be brutal. A lot of it is repetitive. A lot of it nowadays seems to be false evidence against Gokou, just as false as people thinking Gokou is GOD compared to Superman. Methodlogical doubt is good and all but sometimes you just got to take things at face value. It's as if people always want animators to go out of the way of the storyline just to show a character can do something, although the tone, atmosphere, etc. of the series suggests strongly that the claim isn't a joke. I apologize to Andrew again.My problem isn't with Andrew nor he need to actually see things happen, I'm talking about this whole: Quote: The Problem you get into though is just because Character A says something that Character B has shown no ability to do I have a hard time wanting to believe when no evidence backs up Character A's Claim. Now if there is clear evidence that backs what character A claims then it an be easily believed but if character B shows no evidence that he can do what Character A claims then why should it be accepted as fact? Okay good logic. But some people tend to use this when it's convenient for them when Character A's claim ISN'T that farfetch'd. Gokou saying Cell can destroy a Solar System especially when Cell himself says it as well doesn't seem so farfetch'd anymore. Lex Luthor saying that Superman eats other planets as a source of power is a lot more farfetched, simply because we know that Superman has for one never displayed that he's eaten any planet and 2 as 4th wall onlookers into Superman's world we know that Lex would be lying because we have all of his info just given to us and constantly updated if it were to ever become true. Furtherman Superman himself would say it's not true either.Back to the DBZ case, so far we have Cell claiming that he can destroy not only a planet but a solar system. Gokou supports this claim. At this point it's 2 for 2 in favor of the argument opposed to Lex's claim about Superman which at this point was 1:1 Lex in favor and Superman against. Now lets just say for fun we BREAK THE FOURTH WALL and we, the readers are the jury. Superman and Cell are the defendants and Lex and Gokou are plaintiffs in their respective cases. In Superman's case we have a complete profile on him and we've never seen him commit the supposed claims so he has a good chance of being believed when he says he doesn't do it. Cell, Gokou says he is capable of said crime and Cell is virtually pleaing guilty by agree with Gokou, the problem is that we've yet to see it. For all some of knows THEY BOTH COULD BE LIARS. Thus, we look at the next best thing see if there is evidence that makes it even see if the possibility is true. Usually, ki attacks of one kind or another are the source of a planet's destruction in DBZ. The question is how much ki? We can't exactly measure it like we would the explosion of a nuclear impact from an atom bomb. But we do know the ballpark range of the powerlevel a person has to be at to even destroy a planet. Prior to Cell we've seen four cases where an astonomiclal body has been destroyed, Kame Senin, Piccolo, Vegita, and Frieza. It would make sense to use the former 2 since Vegita and Frieza actually destroyed planets. where as Kame Senin and Piccolo only destroyed the moon which is only a fraction of the Earth's size anyways thus it would take less force to destroy it than Earth itself. We know Frieza has destroyed two planets himself and probably more granted his profile but two confirmed. Vegita and Namek. Frieza is full of himself, he always thought that he was so strong that no one would EVER be able to touch him so he probably hasn't gotten any stronger since destroying Vegita first. Then he destroys Namek. So one would assume that you'd have to be at Frieza's level to destroy a planet right? Wrong! Between the two incidents we have Vegita destroying Arlia which since we are talking anime did actually happen although it was a filler not to mention he threatened to blow up the planet Earth during his bout with Gokou, which Gokou successfully generated more than enough force to counter the blast albeit by a marginal line but successful nonetheless. Thus, we now can assume that Vegita's level is the new minimum. Now granted that this is very early in the series and that the characters have far progressed beyond that and that Cell appeared during one of the later stages, hell, he was one of the reasons why the Z-Fighters had to get stronger otherwise there would be no need for them to go through all that training if every villain's powerlevel was the same as Frieza's from the Frieza Fight on out.That said we know he's already a well established planet buster granted he's on a higher level than Frieza and Saiya-jin Saga Vegita. So what's the next stage? Solar system busting? Does it seem all that NOT FEASIBLE that Cell AND GOKOU make the claim that Cell can indeed the destroy a solar stystem when we already know he's well above planet destroying? Now go back to classic Dragon Ball. You miss people a few people that had the power to blow up smaller planits.. I say someone that has the power to wipe out life on earth..  Think back to how Low his power lvl was, and yet He was able to turn a moon into Space dust.
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:12 am
doctor_logical Kuroudo Akabane rikeen90 The LS and IT thing is repetitive. The attitude behind your post set people off more than the content of it. Just because you are on opposite sides with someone, does not mean you're enemies. Goku moves at 99% LS without IT. WITH IT he moves infinitely faster and slower than LS. Goku has a delay of 99% LS (184419.57303/mps) before he can initiate his IT. [Hand to forhead] Thus, he can sometimes move much faster than Superman, and sometimes slower. Wrong. First and foremost I apologize it I pressed some buttons. Mind you it was NOT intended that way. Alas, debating can be brutal. A lot of it is repetitive. A lot of it nowadays seems to be false evidence against Gokou, just as false as people thinking Gokou is GOD compared to Superman. Methodlogical doubt is good and all but sometimes you just got to take things at face value. It's as if people always want animators to go out of the way of the storyline just to show a character can do something, although the tone, atmosphere, etc. of the series suggests strongly that the claim isn't a joke. I apologize to Andrew again.My problem isn't with Andrew nor he need to actually see things happen, I'm talking about this whole: Quote: The Problem you get into though is just because Character A says something that Character B has shown no ability to do I have a hard time wanting to believe when no evidence backs up Character A's Claim. Now if there is clear evidence that backs what character A claims then it an be easily believed but if character B shows no evidence that he can do what Character A claims then why should it be accepted as fact? Okay good logic. But some people tend to use this when it's convenient for them when Character A's claim ISN'T that farfetch'd. Gokou saying Cell can destroy a Solar System especially when Cell himself says it as well doesn't seem so farfetch'd anymore. Lex Luthor saying that Superman eats other planets as a source of power is a lot more farfetched, simply because we know that Superman has for one never displayed that he's eaten any planet and 2 as 4th wall onlookers into Superman's world we know that Lex would be lying because we have all of his info just given to us and constantly updated if it were to ever become true. Furtherman Superman himself would say it's not true either.Back to the DBZ case, so far we have Cell claiming that he can destroy not only a planet but a solar system. Gokou supports this claim. At this point it's 2 for 2 in favor of the argument opposed to Lex's claim about Superman which at this point was 1:1 Lex in favor and Superman against. Now lets just say for fun we BREAK THE FOURTH WALL and we, the readers are the jury. Superman and Cell are the defendants and Lex and Gokou are plaintiffs in their respective cases. In Superman's case we have a complete profile on him and we've never seen him commit the supposed claims so he has a good chance of being believed when he says he doesn't do it. Cell, Gokou says he is capable of said crime and Cell is virtually pleaing guilty by agree with Gokou, the problem is that we've yet to see it. For all some of knows THEY BOTH COULD BE LIARS. Thus, we look at the next best thing see if there is evidence that makes it even see if the possibility is true. Usually, ki attacks of one kind or another are the source of a planet's destruction in DBZ. The question is how much ki? We can't exactly measure it like we would the explosion of a nuclear impact from an atom bomb. But we do know the ballpark range of the powerlevel a person has to be at to even destroy a planet. Prior to Cell we've seen four cases where an astonomiclal body has been destroyed, Kame Senin, Piccolo, Vegita, and Frieza. It would make sense to use the former 2 since Vegita and Frieza actually destroyed planets. where as Kame Senin and Piccolo only destroyed the moon which is only a fraction of the Earth's size anyways thus it would take less force to destroy it than Earth itself. We know Frieza has destroyed two planets himself and probably more granted his profile but two confirmed. Vegita and Namek. Frieza is full of himself, he always thought that he was so strong that no one would EVER be able to touch him so he probably hasn't gotten any stronger since destroying Vegita first. Then he destroys Namek. So one would assume that you'd have to be at Frieza's level to destroy a planet right? Wrong! Between the two incidents we have Vegita destroying Arlia which since we are talking anime did actually happen although it was a filler not to mention he threatened to blow up the planet Earth during his bout with Gokou, which Gokou successfully generated more than enough force to counter the blast albeit by a marginal line but successful nonetheless. Thus, we now can assume that Vegita's level is the new minimum. Now granted that this is very early in the series and that the characters have far progressed beyond that and that Cell appeared during one of the later stages, hell, he was one of the reasons why the Z-Fighters had to get stronger otherwise there would be no need for them to go through all that training if every villain's powerlevel was the same as Frieza's from the Frieza Fight on out.That said we know he's already a well established planet buster granted he's on a higher level than Frieza and Saiya-jin Saga Vegita. So what's the next stage? Solar system busting? Does it seem all that NOT FEASIBLE that Cell AND GOKOU make the claim that Cell can indeed the destroy a solar stystem when we already know he's well above planet destroying? Now go back to classic Dragon Ball. You miss people a few people that had the power to blow up smaller planits.. I say someone that has the power to wipe out life on earth.. Think back to how Low his power lvl was, and yet He was able to turn a moon into Space dust.
I just didn't really credit him and Piccolo too much because they only blew up a moon and the Earth's moon at that which is only a fraction of the Earth's size.
Thus, destroying the Earth's moon takes less force to destroy than the Earth itself.
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:56 pm
Kuroudo Akabane doctor_logical Kuroudo Akabane rikeen90 The LS and IT thing is repetitive. The attitude behind your post set people off more than the content of it. Just because you are on opposite sides with someone, does not mean you're enemies. Goku moves at 99% LS without IT. WITH IT he moves infinitely faster and slower than LS. Goku has a delay of 99% LS (184419.57303/mps) before he can initiate his IT. [Hand to forhead] Thus, he can sometimes move much faster than Superman, and sometimes slower. Wrong. First and foremost I apologize it I pressed some buttons. Mind you it was NOT intended that way. Alas, debating can be brutal. A lot of it is repetitive. A lot of it nowadays seems to be false evidence against Gokou, just as false as people thinking Gokou is GOD compared to Superman. Methodlogical doubt is good and all but sometimes you just got to take things at face value. It's as if people always want animators to go out of the way of the storyline just to show a character can do something, although the tone, atmosphere, etc. of the series suggests strongly that the claim isn't a joke. I apologize to Andrew again.My problem isn't with Andrew nor he need to actually see things happen, I'm talking about this whole: Quote: The Problem you get into though is just because Character A says something that Character B has shown no ability to do I have a hard time wanting to believe when no evidence backs up Character A's Claim. Now if there is clear evidence that backs what character A claims then it an be easily believed but if character B shows no evidence that he can do what Character A claims then why should it be accepted as fact? Okay good logic. But some people tend to use this when it's convenient for them when Character A's claim ISN'T that farfetch'd. Gokou saying Cell can destroy a Solar System especially when Cell himself says it as well doesn't seem so farfetch'd anymore. Lex Luthor saying that Superman eats other planets as a source of power is a lot more farfetched, simply because we know that Superman has for one never displayed that he's eaten any planet and 2 as 4th wall onlookers into Superman's world we know that Lex would be lying because we have all of his info just given to us and constantly updated if it were to ever become true. Furtherman Superman himself would say it's not true either.Back to the DBZ case, so far we have Cell claiming that he can destroy not only a planet but a solar system. Gokou supports this claim. At this point it's 2 for 2 in favor of the argument opposed to Lex's claim about Superman which at this point was 1:1 Lex in favor and Superman against. Now lets just say for fun we BREAK THE FOURTH WALL and we, the readers are the jury. Superman and Cell are the defendants and Lex and Gokou are plaintiffs in their respective cases. In Superman's case we have a complete profile on him and we've never seen him commit the supposed claims so he has a good chance of being believed when he says he doesn't do it. Cell, Gokou says he is capable of said crime and Cell is virtually pleaing guilty by agree with Gokou, the problem is that we've yet to see it. For all some of knows THEY BOTH COULD BE LIARS. Thus, we look at the next best thing see if there is evidence that makes it even see if the possibility is true. Usually, ki attacks of one kind or another are the source of a planet's destruction in DBZ. The question is how much ki? We can't exactly measure it like we would the explosion of a nuclear impact from an atom bomb. But we do know the ballpark range of the powerlevel a person has to be at to even destroy a planet. Prior to Cell we've seen four cases where an astonomiclal body has been destroyed, Kame Senin, Piccolo, Vegita, and Frieza. It would make sense to use the former 2 since Vegita and Frieza actually destroyed planets. where as Kame Senin and Piccolo only destroyed the moon which is only a fraction of the Earth's size anyways thus it would take less force to destroy it than Earth itself. We know Frieza has destroyed two planets himself and probably more granted his profile but two confirmed. Vegita and Namek. Frieza is full of himself, he always thought that he was so strong that no one would EVER be able to touch him so he probably hasn't gotten any stronger since destroying Vegita first. Then he destroys Namek. So one would assume that you'd have to be at Frieza's level to destroy a planet right? Wrong! Between the two incidents we have Vegita destroying Arlia which since we are talking anime did actually happen although it was a filler not to mention he threatened to blow up the planet Earth during his bout with Gokou, which Gokou successfully generated more than enough force to counter the blast albeit by a marginal line but successful nonetheless. Thus, we now can assume that Vegita's level is the new minimum. Now granted that this is very early in the series and that the characters have far progressed beyond that and that Cell appeared during one of the later stages, hell, he was one of the reasons why the Z-Fighters had to get stronger otherwise there would be no need for them to go through all that training if every villain's powerlevel was the same as Frieza's from the Frieza Fight on out.That said we know he's already a well established planet buster granted he's on a higher level than Frieza and Saiya-jin Saga Vegita. So what's the next stage? Solar system busting? Does it seem all that NOT FEASIBLE that Cell AND GOKOU make the claim that Cell can indeed the destroy a solar stystem when we already know he's well above planet destroying? Now go back to classic Dragon Ball. You miss people a few people that had the power to blow up smaller planits.. I say someone that has the power to wipe out life on earth.. Think back to how Low his power lvl was, and yet He was able to turn a moon into Space dust.
I just didn't really credit him and Piccolo too much because they only blew up a moon and the Earth's moon at that which is only a fraction of the Earth's size.
Thus, destroying the Earth's moon takes less force to destroy than the Earth itself. Yeah but sutch a blast could still wipe out all life on earth and nock earth of its orbit.
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:58 am
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:27 pm
I can see that. Still with Superman on this though. In recent posts I've given ways for him to counter the Uber strong blasts.
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:39 pm
rikeen90 The LS and IT thing is repetitive. The attitude behind your post set people off more than the content of it. Just because you are on opposite sides with someone, does not mean you're enemies. Goku moves at 99% LS without IT. WITH IT he moves infinitely faster and slower than LS. Goku has a delay of 99% LS (184419.57303/mps) before he can initiate his IT. [Hand to forhead] Thus, he can sometimes move much faster than Superman, and sometimes slower. One of the worst DBZ missconceptions of all time. I've been re-reading all the DBZ manga lately and asside from the famous IT kamehameha, where Goku clearly had his hands in a kamehameha position and not on his forhead, there was at least one instance where Goku simply uses IT with his hands casualy at his sideds. He doesn't need to toutch his forhead at all, it just helps him track hard to detect or far away power levels. The real reason for the delay in IT is because he has to lock onto a power level, which takes time.
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:41 pm
Nope Goku doesn't have to lock onto a power to use it. All he needs to do is think of someone and he can get there. The problem is conentrating on that person.
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:35 pm
Why does there have to be a difference between concentrating on someone and "locking on" to them?
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:45 pm
Hmm, in that case, the speed is DRASTICALLY reduced.
That puts them near equal in speed, with Goku taking a slight leg-up.
But we shoudn't give the battle decision on that alone.
Let's talk strength.
(BTW: It is entirely within Goku's realm to destroy the Sun, except his character.
Should Goku for some reason chose to use this approach, then it would change the battle.
HOWEVER; Goku wouldn't do such a thing. And as such, I do not ever wish to consider such a course.)
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:47 am
Koju_the_dark_knight Nope Goku doesn't have to lock onto a power to use it. All he needs to do is think of someone and he can get there. The problem is conentrating on that person. I see a slight contradiction in your point . . . ----- Koju_the_dark_knight Nope Goku doesn't have to lock onto a power to use it. Otherwise known as not having to find an energy signature. Koju_the_dark_knight All he needs to do is think of someone and he can get there. So there's no energy searching involved, like you said? Koju_the_dark_knight The problem is conentrating on that person. Otherwise known as pinpointing their energy signature.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:26 pm
Saiyan Master Vegeta Koju_the_dark_knight Nope Goku doesn't have to lock onto a power to use it. All he needs to do is think of someone and he can get there. The problem is conentrating on that person. I see a slight contradiction in your point . . . ----- Koju_the_dark_knight Nope Goku doesn't have to lock onto a power to use it. Otherwise known as not having to find an energy signature. Koju_the_dark_knight All he needs to do is think of someone and he can get there. So there's no energy searching involved, like you said? Koju_the_dark_knight The problem is conentrating on that person. Otherwise known as pinpointing their energy signature. no...Just thinking of someone does not nessicarly mean they have to find an energy signature. Like if he wanted to go to kami's lookout all he'd have to do is think of the place and he could be there.
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:45 pm
rikeen90 Hmm, in that case, the speed is DRASTICALLY reduced. That puts them near equal in speed, with Goku taking a slight leg-up. But we shoudn't give the battle decision on that alone. Let's talk strength. (BTW: It is entirely within Goku's realm to destroy the Sun, except his character. Should Goku for some reason chose to use this approach, then it would change the battle. HOWEVER; Goku wouldn't do such a thing. And as such, I do not ever wish to consider such a course.) From what I know it's something like this. Goku's best feat of strength = Casually lifting 160 tons Superman's best feat of strength = Casually lifting 175-180 tons.
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:37 pm
Well, I am quite certain that they are near the same level, but again, this is all cirumstancial on my part.
We know what they can do casually, I am interested to see what they could do at full potential.
However, I realise the severity of that undertaking. Superman has a slight leg-up in strength then?
We are getting somewhere. arrow
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Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:56 am
Koju_the_dark_knight Saiyan Master Vegeta Koju_the_dark_knight Nope Goku doesn't have to lock onto a power to use it. All he needs to do is think of someone and he can get there. The problem is conentrating on that person. I see a slight contradiction in your point . . . ----- Koju_the_dark_knight Nope Goku doesn't have to lock onto a power to use it. Otherwise known as not having to find an energy signature. Koju_the_dark_knight All he needs to do is think of someone and he can get there. So there's no energy searching involved, like you said? Koju_the_dark_knight The problem is conentrating on that person. Otherwise known as pinpointing their energy signature. no...Just thinking of someone does not nessicarly mean they have to find an energy signature. Like if he wanted to go to kami's lookout all he'd have to do is think of the place and he could be there. No, he has to concentrate on an energy signature, not just make an image pop up in his mind. If he really does just need to think of a place, why do you think he searched for Bulma's energy out of everybody on Earth in order to get to Capsule Corp?
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:05 pm
Alright, so Supes takes a slight lead in strength, and Goku takes a slight lead in speed.
What's left to determine this battle: Endurance and durability.
If I recall correctly, I believe we previously agreed that Superman is more battle-intelligent than Goku, however this is canceled out by Goku's superior experience.
Before we start to debate who is greater than who in endurance and durability, let's lay out the facts for each person so that there's less opportunity for error.
Note: Though we've already discussed endurance and durability, we should expand on our previous ideas due to information changes in other categories, and just so it's set in stone.
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