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 Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:33 pm
PG 27: ART DUMP[x] [ x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x]  ----------------------------------------------------------------- We shouldn't forget that Cloud isn't the only one with an unrequited love, and there's still the matter of Zack. Zack, Aeris’ first boy-friend and first love, was also Cloud's best friend during his years of military service. He was in the illustrious Soldier first-class division, while Cloud was a low-ranking guard. It would be their resemblance and mannerisms that would trigger the greatest controversy of whom Aeris really loved.
And because we've already established that Time is a major factor in determining love and must apply the same standands to all relationships, just how long ago did Aeris know Zack and the difference this makes?
Zack's age is unknown, so we'll rely on Cloud (21) and Aeris (22) for an estimate. Zack's parents said that Zack left 10 years ago to join Soldier. Cloud left to join Soldier 7 years ago at the age of 14. Since many of the boys from his hometown were also leaving, it's safe to assume that 14 is the average and mimimum age of recruiting. So Zack must have been no less than 14 when he left to join. 14+10=24. Zack would have to be around 24 if he were still living, 3 years older than Cloud and 2 years older than Aeris. He would be about 17 when he met Cloud and 19 during the Nibelheim incident. Aeris, 10 years ago would be 12, 7 years ago =15, and 5 years ago =17.
Zack's parents said that 6 or 7 years ago Zack wrote saying that he had a girlfriend. Aeris says that it can't be.
So exactly when did Aeris meet and become involved with Zack?
Aeris says that it was 5 years ago that he went out on a job and never came back. 5 years ago coincides with the events at Nibelheim, meaning that she was with him before those 5 years. It couldn't be 10 years ago because Aeris would be considered a child and the only character that had ties with her childhood was Tseng. It could be 6 or 7 years ago at the age of 15-16 that Aeris met Zack, but if this is true, why didn't Zack ever mention to Cloud, his best friend at the time, about their relationship, or introduce him to her (at least she would have remember if Cloud didn't)? But since Aeris denies that she was the girlfriend from 6 or 7 years ago, did she know him before then? That remains a mystery, but either way both Aeris and Zack would still be teenagers when they became an item.
Many people dismiss the idea of a love that young, so is it love? Aeris says it wasn't serious and that she liked him for a while. This could be true especially if she only knew a minimal amount of information about him and he was her FIRST boyfriend? It's possible that she could easily confuse those first feelings she experienced for love.
But say this is all just speculation and holds no real bearing, does Aeris after years of being away from Zack; not knowing his current whereabouts or state, still continue to love him?
But basically it boils down to Aeris’ characterization. If she's described as always looking forward to the future more than anyone (Tifa even confirms it), hopes to leave Midgar and find her Promised Land, take a ride on the Highwind, and even come back when it's all over; if she's constantly personified in this manner, how can she still dwell on feelings from the past. The only character shown to do this is Tifa, not Aeris. She doesn't even tell Cloud Zack's name at first because it doesn't really matter anymore. Yet, this won't be the only time that Aeris is reminded of Zack.
The next time she mentions him is in Gongaga (which she didn't even know was his hometown). Depending on the severity of a relationship, this would be one of those little details that would be known right away. And aside from that, when questioned by his parents as to whether she was the girlfriend Zack had written about in a letter years before, she says "That can't..." and leaves without any further inquries.
Perhaps, this could be the seen as her being a little perturbed, but when asked by Cloud, she goes on to tell him about how it's all in the past AGAIN. Moreover, that Zack loved women and was a real lady's man and probably found someone else and that she doesn't miss him, but feels for his parents.
Now some would say that she's in denial, and is more affected by this than she leads on. However, why would she so cavalierly tease Cloud about being jealous/envious if that option is chosen instead of the "poor guy" response? If she was so concentrated on her first love, why would she forget about him so easily and focus on Cloud? Unless that means that she is no longer still in love with Zack.
The third and final time arises during the Aeris date:
Aeris:
".........first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike."
"Two completely different people, but look exactly the same."
"The way you walk, gesture..."
"I think I must have seen him again, in you..."
Many people interpret this scene to mean that she only liked Cloud because of his resemblance to Zack, and not Cloud himself. However, why would she use the word "bothered" to describe her initial reaction to the situation? If she only liked him for reminding her of her first-boyfriend, why would it bother her? Wouldn't she be thrilled instead and keep quiet?
Aeris:
"But you're different."
Aeris:
"Things are different..."
Aeris notices that Cloud is different and continues to want to "meet" him. Once again, if she wanted another Zack, wouldn't she be disappointed at her discovery? However, this could only mean that she didn't want another Zack and that he was a part of her past that she accepted and moved on. Cloud could very well be what she desired for the future.
"This above all: to thine own self be true"
Yet, many people still think that in the beginning of the game until the Lifestream event in the second disc that Cloud somehow became Zack, and therefore Aeris never knew the "real" Cloud, only a Zack impersonator.
The only problem with this interpretation is that when Cloud supposedly assumed Zack’s indentity, it was not the full appropriation they believe.
Cloud at no point referred to himself as Zack, nor did he claim to be from Gongaga, or Aeris’ first boyfriend. The only part of Zack’s life that Cloud feigned was being the First-Class SOLDIER who came to Nibelheim five years ago and then becoming the mercenary that Zack had dreamed that they would both become upon reaching Midgar.
And while Cloud did act like Zack by displaying many of the same mannerisms on occasion, his introverted personality differed from Zack’s outgoing persona and he never confused any part of his life with Zack’s.
During his re-telling in Kalm, Cloud might have replayed Zack’s role as if it had been his own, but he did not neglect to mention visiting his mother or Tifa’s room, all of which were not experienced by Zack. Cloud remembered sleeping in his own bed and not in the hotel where Zack stayed. And had he taken over all aspects of Zack’s life, these events would have not been included. Cloud only incorporated as much as Zack later told him.
Cloud never doubted growing up with Tifa or being born in Nibelheim; he knew the difference between his mother and Zack’s parents. He only became uncertain of himself after hearing that he was the clone of another Cloud from his hometown who was Tifa’s childhood friend. At no point was Cloud lead to believe that he was a Zack double. That theory is more improbable than Cloud loving Aeris because Zack was involved with her at one point and since Cloud didn’t even know about Aeris.
So then, who is the "real" Cloud, and why was Aeris unable to meet him?
The truth is that Aeris did meet the "real" Cloud, although she never said that she wanted to meet the "real" Cloud. However, she still says she wants to meet him.
But, how can this be after they have already met and Aeris tells Cloud beforehand that she is "searching" for him while he is right in front of her?
Aeris:
"Cloud..."
"I'm searching for you..."
Cloud:
"............?"
Aeris:
"I want to meet you."
Cloud:
"But I'm right here."
Aeris:
(I know, I know... what I mean is...)
"I want to meet..... you."
The confusion results from how "meet" and "search" are use in the sentenced and the semantics linked with both words. Many people automatically associate "meet" with being introduced and "search" with coming to know or probe; therefore, Aeris is [coming to know] Cloud, and wants to be [introduced] to the "real" him.
Similar sentences in the same context:
"It’s nice to finally meet you."
"I searched inside myself for an answer."
However, “meet” and “search” have several definitions that could equally and easily be substituted in their place. “Meet” can also mean to come together and “search” could be to seek or look for.
Similar sentences in the same context:
"Let’s meet tomorrow at the park."
"I’ve been searching for you all my life."
Although, this is only one alternate interpretation, both are still valid. And once again, she never says the word "real"; it is just "you" before an ellipsis pause. It can only be assumed that there is an emphasis on "you", not a definite one. Moreover, just as these words are not restricted to a set definition, neither is the "real" Cloud.
The "real" Cloud is not limited to Cloud's identity but could be in reference to his personality, and if in fact she is looking for the "real" Cloud. Perhaps the "real" Cloud is the one who helped her escape when she was been pursued by the Turks, the one who rescued her from the Shinra building, and the one who overall cares for his friends and not the one controlled by Sephiroth or posing as Zack or the man who only cared about the planet if money was involved.
"By indirections find directions out."
However, say that Aeris still loves Zack even after all those years. In order for love to exist, it must be mutual.
So then how much did Zack love Aeris?
We find out during Cloud's flash back of his escape from the Shinra Mansion with Zack. On their way to Midgar, Zack does indeed allude to Aeris:
Zack:
"I got a place I can crash for a while..."
"No wait, the mother lives there, too..."
"Guess that's out..."
Notice that he doesn't say he has a girlfriend, or love, or give a name, or even say it's a person. He has a "place". It's easy to assume that since Aeris lives with her adoptive mother, that her home in the sector 7 slums must be that place. He basically plans to use Aeris for her house, abuse of her hospitality, and bring along a friend! Neither of which revolved around being reunited with a lost love. Unfortunately for him, he has to change his plans to visit and inform Aeris of his return.
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:36 pm
No doubt about it Tifa has strong feelings for Cloud at the beginning of the game and throughout. She never expresses those sentiments though, but you can't blame her because she doesn't tell Cloud many things, and their past together being at the topmost of the list.
Yet, Cloud later admits that he's the master of his own illusionary world, does Tifa make an equal affirmation?
A relationship is built on trust, so then why doesn't Tifa just tell Cloud the truth when she knows that his version is false?
The worst that could have happened, would have been that Cloud would become upset, tell her she's wrong, and leave as he was planning to do.
Tifa:
"You told me a lot about what happened after you left Nibelheim..."
Tifa:
"But..."
"...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about."
"All the things you didn't know that you should. And other things you shouldn't know that you did..."
"I wanted to make sure..."
"But then I heard... you were going far away..."
Tifa:
"And I didn't want that..."
"I didn't know what to do. So, I thought I needed more time."
"And that's why I told you about the AVALANCHE job. I wanted to be with you, watch you."
Tifa's only way to keep Cloud around was to conceal what she knew and she had every opportunity to tell Cloud the truth on their journey. It could have been when she first met him at the train station, or anytime it was mentioned afterwards like:
» before the second reactor mission,
» in Kalm during Cloud's story,
» in Junon,
» in Costa del Sol talking with Johnny,
» in Gongaga about Zack,
» in Cosmo Canyon during the bonfire,
» in Nibelheim,
or basically at any moment before Gaea's Cliff when the truth is revealed and Sephiroth takes possession of Cloud's psyche.
Yet, some claim that Tifa is protecting Cloud rather than protecting her own self interests. However, as we later find out it is Tifa's "protection" that causes the greatest damage of all. So that can only contradict the previous statement.
Nonetheless, Tifa does succeed in obligating Cloud to stay at her side under false pretenses and does so by consciously creating a relationship with Cloud and pretending that she was unaware that they were never friends.
However, it is impossible to say that Tifa was unmindful of their past, because unlike Cloud, who states that the story that he had heard from his friend Zack and what he had seen in his life were the basis of his illusion along with the combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and his own weaknesses, Tifa was never exposed to any of that so there would be no reason for a lapse in her memories causing her to be unsure.
Had she no previous knowledge of their past, she would be unable to conveniently remember a promise made with a childhood stranger and their false friendship, while forgetting the day her mother died, two near-death experiences, and the even more traumatic ordeal 5 years ago of a destroyed hometown and her father's murder which lead to her hatred of Shinra and her alliance to AVALANCHE. After all she's been through, how could she?
So then what was Tifa's response to Cloud's confession about lying to his friends:
Tifa:
"You're sure messed up, Cloud!"
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:41 pm
Or, if Tifa "loves" Cloud when they were children after one conversation, after the proceedings five years ago, "loves" him at the beginning of the game, and continues to "love" him before and after the Lifestream event, then that could be considered as some real unwavering love.
But, one of the other main arguments against Cloud and Aeris, is that Aeris didn’t know the real Cloud. The "Real Cloud" that many say is Cloud's usurption of Zack's life. Yet, if this is true, then at the beginning when he assumes Zack’s "identity", he wasn’t the real Cloud, but Tifa "loved" him then?
That's odd since combined with the notion that Tifa’s the only one who’s ever known the real Cloud, something doesn’t add up. How could she really love someone when she doesn't know them, when they’re someone else, and when they’ve return to themselves? If she doesn’t know him at all, how does she know which one she’s in love with? Ay there’s the rub. She doesn’t. And to think that she was about to tell him she loved him on their date, before he was the real Cloud!
They survive of course, and which can only lead us to the Lifestream event wherein Tifa "helps" Cloud restore his memories. It's used as one of the main proofs to show how much their pasts are intertwined as well as their hearts. Many use this scene as an example of their "love" surpassing time. It's here we discover about Cloud's past feelings for Tifa, and since this occurs in his subconscious, they must still be fresh on his mind and directly correlated to how he still feels now.
However, what we see is a part of his past memories and not all. These memories were suppressed. These are the memories that were once warped and needed clarification, but are not the only memories that Cloud has lodged in his mind or the only important ones. There are certainly no memories of his recent journey in that scene, or anything indicating the present. These are all from the past years before. Things change. People change. Besides, in the meantime, he's made plently more, many that include Aeris.
The human memory is a vast compound composed of millions of memories, both significant and not so significant. Some things are so deeply pounded in our subconscious that the data is so lucid it’s as if it happened only seconds prior. While others (the trivial bits we choose to remember) are not, and in recalling them most of the surroundings or dialogue are lost. So which category would we classify the death of a friend/loved one? Typically when someone dies, especially someone that was valued or cherished, all memories of that person are not quickly erased and forgotten completely.
There are times when over time, ours minds can be overcome by other matters, but it’s always there. The hurt and pain of losing that certain someone is difficult to bear and can be evoked by the mere mention.
So then it only raises the question, would Cloud be so quick to put Aeris’ memories behind him entirely?
Cloud:
"We've got to let go of Aeris' memory."
It's true that Cloud doesn’t show grief over her death at every moment, but it’s not as though she’s not in his thoughts nor does he let go of that memory as is quoted from the game. That line is more relevant to releasing Aeris’ spirit rather than her memory, and fits better within the context of Cloud’s speech.
And like he said in Cosmo Canyon, Cloud thinks about her a lot. However, he is on a mission seeking revenge against Sephiroth for her death amongst other things. And even after that’s accomplished, he’s not going to hastily overlook everything he’s endured. If he’s unable to disregard what happened five years ago, would a fresher wound heal faster?
We shouldn't forget though that this isn't the only time that we enter Cloud's subconscious. At the very end of the game in the final FMV, that scene in which Cloud travels through the winding tunnel to encounter Sephiroth is not the actual Cloud as many believe. This is the representation of his metaphysical catharsis. Cloud is purging himself of the demons that still haunt him and were placed there by his worse enemy. He's purifying his being. In that final battle, he's not killing the real Sephiroth, but the figurative destruction of the evil within. And by doing so, what has Cloud really accomplished?
Cloud:
"Although she should've returned to the planet by now, something stopped her and now she's stuck......"
That's right, by destroying what was obstructing Aeris’ passage, he can now be reunited with her, the person he desires to "meet" the most and his "Promised Land". Although only a hand is shown reaching out to Cloud, it's Aeris’ theme playing in the background. To misconstrue this into Aeris’ hand leading him to Tifa would be doing Cloud an injustice. Tifa is not a part of that dream any longer nor will she ever be again.
So ultimately whatever you interpret that scene to mean or your stance on the love triangle, Cloud will always say:
Cloud:
"...I think I'm beginning to understand."
"An answer from the Planet..."
"the Promised Land..."
"I think I can meet her... there."
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:42 pm
I got those absoutely wonderful passages from the fair ophellia be sure to visit! heart
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:38 pm
xd I fixed up the my little fanart on paint. it's nothing complex, but it's just brimming with cuteness. and the first picture is on the last photo dump was done on abi-station!! xd I can recognized those things from a mile away!!
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:14 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. twindream That's true....but Cloud's true character is shy and weak. He still wasn't himself in the beginning of the game though. Cloud kept his true self locked up and the memories he kept dear to him. (Lifestream event comes to play) Basically he created his own character, mixing Zack's behavior and memories as well and mixing memories of Tifa. Aeris didn't get to know "Cloud". (The Maiden) Cloud's true character was locked up. In Case of Tifa and Advent Children, you start to see some character development actually go through him. Cloud wasn't Cloud since the "real Cloud" was hidden (Insert Lifestream event). When Cloud fell into the church, the voice that asked him if he was okay was his inner self, "Cloud". (Oh gosh this is just going back and forth.... xd ) Also, other times "Cloud" spoke to Cloud was in Junon when "Cloud" asked about Tifa as well as the Honeybee Inn. It shows that the present Cloud really wasn't himself. Not only was his memories wrecked, but so was his action/behavior. So yeah....When it comes to Aeris, they didn't get to know each other. Some of Cloud's memories were mixed in with Tifa's as well as Zack's due to the Jenova cells, so he would know that he was born in Nibelheim. The only memories he kept were his encounter with his mother, the Nibelheim incident, his feelings for Tifa, and the promise. (Lifestream) The context certainly does say that she really got over him. But people are able to say that after someone has been gone for years. I'm originally from California and I fell for this guy in 6th grade and then I moved to Texas. I was sure my feelings for him were gone....but when I met him again, just seeing his face made my heart jump. As in "The Maiden", when she saw Zack again, she felt guilty for believing that he left. And when she saw him acting his old self, she reminesced. (sp?) And she remembered how she fell in love with him.
well if Aerith didn't know the "real Cloud", Tifa sure didn't either. She and Cloud were little more than strangers as children. Tifa herself stated this. In fact, Tifa didn't really start getting to know Cloud until he joined AVALANCHE many years later, right about the time he met Aerith. So, what applies to Aerith applies to Tifa as well.
True...but the Cloud Tifa knew was from the past. Cloud's true character was locked up and his personality didn't grow, so to some extent, Tifa knows more, but you're right. Both didn't know him as well. Quote: also when you say "his feelings for Tifa" thats not love All Tifa does is suggest he remember something regarding her from their childhood. And the only thing he recalls is the fact that he and Tifa never really knew each other that well at all. He recalled a childhood crush that Tifa had never reciprocated, along with feelings of shame and rejection. In fact, Cloud's childhood crush was not even based on a relationship with Tifa at all since he never knew her. Not to mention the fact that a lot can change in seven years, including getting over a baseless crush. Past feelings should not even be considered when discussing current feelings. Expecting Cloud to retain his feelings for Tifa is like expecting a boy in the 6th grade who is very unpopular and has a crush on the most popular girl in school to still retain those feelings for her when he is in college and hasn't seen her or spoken to her for 7 years. absurd no? That's your opinion. Once again, the real Cloud was locked away. From the lifestream event, it's like he still lived in that past. The fact that he kept that memory of that "secret, sealed up wish that no one could know" meant that it was dear to him, that Tifa was someone he really cared for and crushed on hopelessly. Whether it was "love" or not is based on the interpreter. We can safely say that their relationship transcends basic friendship though. Quote: Let us compare Cloud's reaction over the death of Aerith with another time when he believed that two people close to him were injured and/or dying: Zack: A close friend of Cloud's from SOLDIER, Zack was brutally attacked by Sephiroth and left to die. What was Cloud's reaction? Nothing. He picked up Zack's sword and went after Sephiroth. He said nothing. He did nothing for Zack. He showed no emotion. Tifa: A close friend of Cloud and the other half of the "love triangle". Tifa was viciously stabbed by Sephiroth and left for dead. Cloud comes across Tifa lying on the steps of the reactor at Nibelheim. She is bleeding severely. What does Cloud do? Does he hold her close? No. Does he scream in rage and anguish? No. Does he weep? No. All Cloud does is set Tifa to the side. He says nothing to her. He just leaves her there to die. And, yes, Cloud did think Tifa was dying, later admitting that he thought she was a "goner". Tifa herself stated that she was surprised that she had survived the incident. Cloud admitted that he was "sad" that Tifa was dying. However, his sadness was not enough to break down his cold exterior and open the emotional floodgates as we see during Aerith's death. In fact, if it had not been for Tifa's teacher, Zangan, she probably would have died. Zangan was the one to stop Tifa's bleeding, not Cloud. Zangan was the one who carried Tifa down Mt. Nibelheim to get her much-needed medical attention, not Cloud. Now, compare all of this to Cloud's reaction at Aerith's death. It should be clear which of them Cloud is in love with. Okay, over here, your views are skewed. Unlike Tifa and Zack's situation, Cloud was RIGHT THERE when Aeris was mercilessly killed. Who wouldn't break? Now, let's take Tifa's situation.....Did Cloud really have time to tend to Tifa? No, you have a friggin' madman on the loose who also stabbed Cloud and left him to die. The least he could do for her at the time was move her to a better location, unlike Zack who basically left Tifa there. For Zack's situation, remember that Cloud was in a vegetative state. His mind was a blur and he couldn't move without any support. What reaction would there be when that was the starting point to Cloud's mental breakdown? Quote: "Cloud is speaking of he and Aerith in the first person plural the same way that couples do. Some people argue that Cloud does not mean he and Aerith as he says this. They interpret this phrase to mean that Cloud is asking how the group is going to fight Sephiroth without Aerith, since she told Cloud in the Sleeping Forest that only a survivor of the Cetra can do it. However, this interpretation doesn't fit the context of the passage at all. Cloud is in the midst of grief and shock over her death, while he is clutching her body close to him with his head bowed over her. He is in the midst of talking about his own pain and the loss of Aerith. Why would Cloud suddenly switch topic to ask how the group is supposed to fight Sephiroth without Aerith?" See what I mean? Cloud loved Aerith. He just realized it a bit too late. They say you never know whar you've got until it's gone. I think this was the case here. Also, according to Shadow Spirit, a Japanese descendant, Aly is correct about the "What about US" statement. In his interview with Aly, which can be viewed here, SS comments on the Japanese version of FFVII: "When Cloud says 'What about US? What are WE supposed to do?' in Aerith's death scene, the phrase is directed to Cloud and Aerith in a personal sense, almost like a talk between him and her. The language usage in this scene is painful, soft, and personal, instead of Cloud's usual rough manner of speech. Although he doesn't indicate love in and of itself, it's the only scene in the game where Cloud shows a soft side, so it's pretty much sure that Aerith was very important to him and more than just a friend. Aerith is the only person who captured Cloud's attention like this in the game. Since your actions reveal who you love in Japan, then his feelings for Aerith are suggested in this scene." Of course Aeris captured his attention...she was the most forward person there. I would agree that Aeris means more to Cloud than just friends, but since it doesn't suggest love, this is open to interpretation. Quote: I would like to also add that Aly and Shadow Spirit's interpretations of this passage are also considered correct by Vilaeth, the site translator for AdventChildren.net, who is also of Japanese descent. ^_^ There are a couple of more points regarding Aerith's death and the circumstances around it that I would like to make... 1. When Aerith ran off into the Sleeping Forest in Cloud's vision, he ran after her. Why? Why would Cloud run after Aerith unless he wanted to be with her and/or didn't want her to leave? He didn't have any reason to think she was in danger. After all, she told him she would come back when it was all over. Sephiroth didn't appear until after Cloud had started running. What reason did Cloud have for running after Aerith before he even knew she was in danger unless he just didn't want her to go? 2. When Cloud approached Aerith on the altar where she was praying, he waved everyone else away. Does this remind you of anything? Well, it should, because it is the exact same thing Vincent did when he approached Lucrecia beneath the waterfall. Vincent wanted a few moments to speak alone with the woman he loved. Cloud is no different. Doesn't the fact that he wants a moment alone with Aerith imply that she is something more than a friend to him? Doesn't the fact that his friends allow him to approach her alone imply that they are aware of how he feels for Aerith? Tifa was Aerith's friend, too, so why wasn't she allowed to pass? If Cloud was a mere friend to Aerith, then why was he singled out to approach her alone? 3. Why did Sephiroth wait until Cloud arrived to murder Aerith? I mean, Sephiroth waited around until Aerith had already gotten her wish to the planet and bonded Holy to humanity. That was rather counter-productive of him, don't you think? Why didn't he kill her before she did this? It would have fueled his plans much better if he had done so. By killing Aerith after she was done praying, he actually helped Aerith to summon Holy. So, why make this troublesome girl even more of an obstacle by doing exactly what she wanted? I mean, he showed up in the Sleeping Forest right after she left. He knew where she was going and what she planned to do. So, why wait? I think the answer is pretty clear. Sephiroth waited to kill Aerith in front of Cloud because he knew that nothing could devastate Cloud more than to lose the woman he loved. It was Sephiroth's way of getting revenge on Cloud for being defeated in the Nibelheim reactor. Even when Sephiroth laughed and claimed Cloud was incapable of feelings-- he was doing all of it to cause Cloud grief and sorrow. Even in Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children, Sephiroth states that he wishes to bring Cloud despair. What better way to cause despair than to kill the one you love most in the world right in front of you while you stand there helpless? Number 3 is a little iffy to me.....but I can see how you would believe this. Quote: 4. Cloud was the one to run to Aerith and scoop her up in his arms after she had been killed. And it was everyone else who came up to offer their condolences, whether it was a hug, a hand on the shoulder, or an understanding nod. If Aerith was just a mere friend, like she was to everyone else, why would everyone be comforting Cloud? Doesn't this imply that they understand just how deeply he cared for her? Doesn't also imply that they understand that Cloud is suffering the greatest loss? 5. Cloud, alone, was the one to lay Aerith to rest in the water. No one else was visible in this scene. Just like when Cloud approached Aerith alone, Cloud was allowed a special moment alone with Aerith. If Cloud considered her a mere friend, like all of the others did, why was he the only one to carry her to her final rest? Doesn't this indicate how special Aerith was to Cloud? In the novella "Maiden of the Planet", which focuses on Aerith's spirit after her death, we have a confirmation of just how devastated Cloud is over Aerith's death. Read it and weep, CloTis: "She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him." And here are a few more lines in case it hasn't struck home yet for some of you thick-headed people. XD This one takes place immediately after her death: "But a cry came through to her. It wasn't the sound of her cry. If it was then she would have felt the blood gushing up through her throat and the fury that forced its way out from the depths of her soul- It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth." Do these lines even remotely sound like someone who has lost a mere friend??? I don't think so. .............*Sighs* I tire of your harsh words. Seriously, I was just pointing out my opinions, but you really just force it down people's throats. And your interpretation of the part of her death is your opinion. Really, I could see the romantic part of it, but once again it's open to interpretation. Yes, he showed the most grief towards Aeris death...does is show a romantic side? Yes, maybe so.....but I don't like talking about Aeris' death...it's depressing...
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:34 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. We shouldn't forget that Cloud isn't the only one with an unrequited love, and there's still the matter of Zack. Zack, Aeris’ first boy-friend and first love, was also Cloud's best friend during his years of military service. He was in the illustrious Soldier first-class division, while Cloud was a low-ranking guard. It would be their resemblance and mannerisms that would trigger the greatest controversy of whom Aeris really loved.
And because we've already established that Time is a major factor in determining love and must apply the same standands to all relationships, just how long ago did Aeris know Zack and the difference this makes?
Zack's age is unknown, so we'll rely on Cloud (21) and Aeris (22) for an estimate. Zack's parents said that Zack left 10 years ago to join Soldier. Cloud left to join Soldier 7 years ago at the age of 14. Since many of the boys from his hometown were also leaving, it's safe to assume that 14 is the average and mimimum age of recruiting. So Zack must have been no less than 14 when he left to join. 14+10=24. Zack would have to be around 24 if he were still living, 3 years older than Cloud and 2 years older than Aeris. He would be about 17 when he met Cloud and 19 during the Nibelheim incident. Aeris, 10 years ago would be 12, 7 years ago =15, and 5 years ago =17.
Zack's parents said that 6 or 7 years ago Zack wrote saying that he had a girlfriend. Aeris says that it can't be.
So exactly when did Aeris meet and become involved with Zack?
Aeris says that it was 5 years ago that he went out on a job and never came back. 5 years ago coincides with the events at Nibelheim, meaning that she was with him before those 5 years. It couldn't be 10 years ago because Aeris would be considered a child and the only character that had ties with her childhood was Tseng. It could be 6 or 7 years ago at the age of 15-16 that Aeris met Zack, but if this is true, why didn't Zack ever mention to Cloud, his best friend at the time, about their relationship, or introduce him to her (at least she would have remember if Cloud didn't)? But since Aeris denies that she was the girlfriend from 6 or 7 years ago, did she know him before then? That remains a mystery, but either way both Aeris and Zack would still be teenagers when they became an item.
Many people dismiss the idea of a love that young, so is it love? Aeris says it wasn't serious and that she liked him for a while. This could be true especially if she only knew a minimal amount of information about him and he was her FIRST boyfriend? It's possible that she could easily confuse those first feelings she experienced for love.
We'll have to wait for Crisis Core then won't we? Quote: But say this is all just speculation and holds no real bearing, does Aeris after years of being away from Zack; not knowing his current whereabouts or state, still continue to love him? But basically it boils down to Aeris’ characterization. If she's described as always looking forward to the future more than anyone (Tifa even confirms it), hopes to leave Midgar and find her Promised Land, take a ride on the Highwind, and even come back when it's all over; if she's constantly personified in this manner, how can she still dwell on feelings from the past. The only character shown to do this is Tifa, not Aeris. She doesn't even tell Cloud Zack's name at first because it doesn't really matter anymore. Yet, this won't be the only time that Aeris is reminded of Zack. Yes, she's always looking ahead to the future. She quickly confirmed that Zack left her, but meeting him again is a different matter. Quote: The next time she mentions him is in Gongaga (which she didn't even know was his hometown). Depending on the severity of a relationship, this would be one of those little details that would be known right away. And aside from that, when questioned by his parents as to whether she was the girlfriend Zack had written about in a letter years before, she says "That can't..." and leaves without any further inquries. Perhaps, this could be the seen as her being a little perturbed, but when asked by Cloud, she goes on to tell him about how it's all in the past AGAIN. Moreover, that Zack loved women and was a real lady's man and probably found someone else and that she doesn't miss him, but feels for his parents. Now some would say that she's in denial, and is more affected by this than she leads on. However, why would she so cavalierly tease Cloud about being jealous/envious if that option is chosen instead of the "poor guy" response? If she was so concentrated on her first love, why would she forget about him so easily and focus on Cloud? Unless that means that she is no longer still in love with Zack. The third and final time arises during the Aeris date: Aeris: ".........first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike." "Two completely different people, but look exactly the same." "The way you walk, gesture..." "I think I must have seen him again, in you..." Many people interpret this scene to mean that she only liked Cloud because of his resemblance to Zack, and not Cloud himself. However, why would she use the word "bothered" to describe her initial reaction to the situation? If she only liked him for reminding her of her first-boyfriend, why would it bother her? Wouldn't she be thrilled instead and keep quiet? Aeris: "But you're different." Aeris: "Things are different..." Aeris notices that Cloud is different and continues to want to "meet" him. Once again, if she wanted another Zack, wouldn't she be disappointed at her discovery? However, this could only mean that she didn't want another Zack and that he was a part of her past that she accepted and moved on. Cloud could very well be what she desired for the future. "This above all: to thine own self be true" Yet, many people still think that in the beginning of the game until the Lifestream event in the second disc that Cloud somehow became Zack, and therefore Aeris never knew the "real" Cloud, only a Zack impersonator. The only problem with this interpretation is that when Cloud supposedly assumed Zack’s indentity, it was not the full appropriation they believe. Cloud at no point referred to himself as Zack, nor did he claim to be from Gongaga, or Aeris’ first boyfriend. The only part of Zack’s life that Cloud feigned was being the First-Class SOLDIER who came to Nibelheim five years ago and then becoming the mercenary that Zack had dreamed that they would both become upon reaching Midgar. And while Cloud did act like Zack by displaying many of the same mannerisms on occasion, his introverted personality differed from Zack’s outgoing persona and he never confused any part of his life with Zack’s. During his re-telling in Kalm, Cloud might have replayed Zack’s role as if it had been his own, but he did not neglect to mention visiting his mother or Tifa’s room, all of which were not experienced by Zack. Cloud remembered sleeping in his own bed and not in the hotel where Zack stayed. And had he taken over all aspects of Zack’s life, these events would have not been included. Cloud only incorporated as much as Zack later told him. Ehh? If I may recall, Cloud did sleep in the hotel as well. Cloud did not incorporate what Zack told him. The Jenova cells pretty much copied those events and some that Cloud didn't experience. Like when Cloud imagined that he was going after Sephiroth in the reactor, the first one there. And the memories of Tifa that Jenova also copied clashed with Clou's present state. Quote: Cloud never doubted growing up with Tifa or being born in Nibelheim; he knew the difference between his mother and Zack’s parents. He only became uncertain of himself after hearing that he was the clone of another Cloud from his hometown who was Tifa’s childhood friend. At no point was Cloud lead to believe that he was a Zack double. That theory is more improbable than Cloud loving Aeris because Zack was involved with her at one point and since Cloud didn’t even know about Aeris. So then, who is the "real" Cloud, and why was Aeris unable to meet him? The truth is that Aeris did meet the "real" Cloud, although she never said that she wanted to meet the "real" Cloud. However, she still says she wants to meet him. So no, Aeris did not meet the "real" Cloud. She couldn't have, which also illustrates in "The Maiden" when she said she was finally happy to know him. Quote: But, how can this be after they have already met and Aeris tells Cloud beforehand that she is "searching" for him while he is right in front of her? Aeris: "Cloud..." "I'm searching for you..." Cloud: "............?" Aeris: "I want to meet you." Cloud: "But I'm right here." Aeris: (I know, I know... what I mean is...) "I want to meet..... you." The confusion results from how "meet" and "search" are use in the sentenced and the semantics linked with both words. Many people automatically associate "meet" with being introduced and "search" with coming to know or probe; therefore, Aeris is [coming to know] Cloud, and wants to be [introduced] to the "real" him. Similar sentences in the same context: "It’s nice to finally meet you." "I searched inside myself for an answer." However, “meet” and “search” have several definitions that could equally and easily be substituted in their place. “Meet” can also mean to come together and “search” could be to seek or look for. Similar sentences in the same context: "Let’s meet tomorrow at the park." "I’ve been searching for you all my life." Although, this is only one alternate interpretation, both are still valid. And once again, she never says the word "real"; it is just "you" before an ellipsis pause. It can only be assumed that there is an emphasis on "you", not a definite one. Moreover, just as these words are not restricted to a set definition, neither is the "real" Cloud. The "real" Cloud is not limited to Cloud's identity but could be in reference to his personality, and if in fact she is looking for the "real" Cloud. Perhaps the "real" Cloud is the one who helped her escape when she was been pursued by the Turks, the one who rescued her from the Shinra building, and the one who overall cares for his friends and not the one controlled by Sephiroth or posing as Zack or the man who only cared about the planet if money was involved. "By indirections find directions out." However, say that Aeris still loves Zack even after all those years. In order for love to exist, it must be mutual. So then how much did Zack love Aeris? We find out during Cloud's flash back of his escape from the Shinra Mansion with Zack. On their way to Midgar, Zack does indeed allude to Aeris: Zack: "I got a place I can crash for a while..." "No wait, the mother lives there, too..." "Guess that's out..." Notice that he doesn't say he has a girlfriend, or love, or give a name, or even say it's a person. He has a "place". It's easy to assume that since Aeris lives with her adoptive mother, that her home in the sector 7 slums must be that place. He basically plans to use Aeris for her house, abuse of her hospitality, and bring along a friend! Neither of which revolved around being reunited with a lost love. Unfortunately for him, he has to change his plans to visit and inform Aeris of his return. I don't know....this seems to be overanalyzing things....going on about "meet" and "search". Basically, she wants to meet him, and she's searching for who he really is inside, not this cocky, arrogant, cool guy she sees in front of her. Why would the real Cloud be the one that rescued her? I don't exactly understand what you mean by this.
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:38 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. No doubt about it Tifa has strong feelings for Cloud at the beginning of the game and throughout. She never expresses those sentiments though, but you can't blame her because she doesn't tell Cloud many things, and their past together being at the topmost of the list.
Yet, Cloud later admits that he's the master of his own illusionary world, does Tifa make an equal affirmation?
A relationship is built on trust, so then why doesn't Tifa just tell Cloud the truth when she knows that his version is false?
The worst that could have happened, would have been that Cloud would become upset, tell her she's wrong, and leave as he was planning to do.
Tifa:
"You told me a lot about what happened after you left Nibelheim..."
Tifa:
"But..."
"...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about."
"All the things you didn't know that you should. And other things you shouldn't know that you did..."
"I wanted to make sure..."
"But then I heard... you were going far away..."
Tifa:
"And I didn't want that..."
"I didn't know what to do. So, I thought I needed more time."
"And that's why I told you about the AVALANCHE job. I wanted to be with you, watch you."
Tifa's only way to keep Cloud around was to conceal what she knew and she had every opportunity to tell Cloud the truth on their journey. It could have been when she first met him at the train station, or anytime it was mentioned afterwards like:
» before the second reactor mission,
» in Kalm during Cloud's story,
» in Junon,
» in Costa del Sol talking with Johnny,
» in Gongaga about Zack,
» in Cosmo Canyon during the bonfire,
» in Nibelheim,
or basically at any moment before Gaea's Cliff when the truth is revealed and Sephiroth takes possession of Cloud's psyche.
Yet, some claim that Tifa is protecting Cloud rather than protecting her own self interests. However, as we later find out it is Tifa's "protection" that causes the greatest damage of all. So that can only contradict the previous statement.
Nonetheless, Tifa does succeed in obligating Cloud to stay at her side under false pretenses and does so by consciously creating a relationship with Cloud and pretending that she was unaware that they were never friends.
However, it is impossible to say that Tifa was unmindful of their past, because unlike Cloud, who states that the story that he had heard from his friend Zack and what he had seen in his life were the basis of his illusion along with the combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and his own weaknesses, Tifa was never exposed to any of that so there would be no reason for a lapse in her memories causing her to be unsure.
Well yeah, I mean, I would believe somebody if they were so sure that "this" happened and if I hear it over and over again. Quote: Had she no previous knowledge of their past, she would be unable to conveniently remember a promise made with a childhood stranger and their false friendship, while forgetting the day her mother died, two near-death experiences, and the even more traumatic ordeal 5 years ago of a destroyed hometown and her father's murder which lead to her hatred of Shinra and her alliance to AVALANCHE. After all she's been through, how could she? So then what was Tifa's response to Cloud's confession about lying to his friends: Tifa: "You're sure messed up, Cloud!" I don't think Tifa's comment meant a negative way....more like she was just stating how he was before he came back to "normal". Well anyway, whatever.
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:56 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. Or, if Tifa "loves" Cloud when they were children after one conversation, after the proceedings five years ago, "loves" him at the beginning of the game, and continues to "love" him before and after the Lifestream event, then that could be considered as some real unwavering love.
But, one of the other main arguments against Cloud and Aeris, is that Aeris didn’t know the real Cloud. The "Real Cloud" that many say is Cloud's usurption of Zack's life. Yet, if this is true, then at the beginning when he assumes Zack’s "identity", he wasn’t the real Cloud, but Tifa "loved" him then?
That's odd since combined with the notion that Tifa’s the only one who’s ever known the real Cloud, something doesn’t add up. How could she really love someone when she doesn't know them, when they’re someone else, and when they’ve return to themselves? If she doesn’t know him at all, how does she know which one she’s in love with? Ay there’s the rub. She doesn’t. And to think that she was about to tell him she loved him on their date, before he was the real Cloud!
Yes, Tifa didn't know Cloud as well in the past, but she did develop romantic feelings which grew by the day. She looked in the newspapers everyday to see if Cloud made it to SOLDIER. Also, they did make that promise, and Tifa would remember that. Also, Tifa was shown waiting for Cloud when Sephiroth, Zack, and the concealed Cloud came to Nibelheim. She was upset that she did not see him. She really wanted to see Cloud. And please stop rubbing things that are false. Quote: They survive of course, and which can only lead us to the Lifestream event wherein Tifa "helps" Cloud restore his memories. It's used as one of the main proofs to show how much their pasts are intertwined as well as their hearts. Many use this scene as an example of their "love" surpassing time. It's here we discover about Cloud's past feelings for Tifa, and since this occurs in his subconscious, they must still be fresh on his mind and directly correlated to how he still feels now. However, what we see is a part of his past memories and not all. These memories were suppressed. These are the memories that were once warped and needed clarification, but are not the only memories that Cloud has lodged in his mind or the only important ones. There are certainly no memories of his recent journey in that scene, or anything indicating the present. These are all from the past years before. Things change. People change. Besides, in the meantime, he's made plently more, many that include Aeris. The human memory is a vast compound composed of millions of memories, both significant and not so significant. Some things are so deeply pounded in our subconscious that the data is so lucid it’s as if it happened only seconds prior. While others (the trivial bits we choose to remember) are not, and in recalling them most of the surroundings or dialogue are lost. So which category would we classify the death of a friend/loved one? Typically when someone dies, especially someone that was valued or cherished, all memories of that person are not quickly erased and forgotten completely. There are times when over time, ours minds can be overcome by other matters, but it’s always there. The hurt and pain of losing that certain someone is difficult to bear and can be evoked by the mere mention. So then it only raises the question, would Cloud be so quick to put Aeris’ memories behind him entirely? Cloud: "We've got to let go of Aeris' memory." It's true that Cloud doesn’t show grief over her death at every moment, but it’s not as though she’s not in his thoughts nor does he let go of that memory as is quoted from the game. That line is more relevant to releasing Aeris’ spirit rather than her memory, and fits better within the context of Cloud’s speech. And like he said in Cosmo Canyon, Cloud thinks about her a lot. However, he is on a mission seeking revenge against Sephiroth for her death amongst other things. And even after that’s accomplished, he’s not going to hastily overlook everything he’s endured. If he’s unable to disregard what happened five years ago, would a fresher wound heal faster? We shouldn't forget though that this isn't the only time that we enter Cloud's subconscious. At the very end of the game in the final FMV, that scene in which Cloud travels through the winding tunnel to encounter Sephiroth is not the actual Cloud as many believe. This is the representation of his metaphysical catharsis. Cloud is purging himself of the demons that still haunt him and were placed there by his worse enemy. He's purifying his being. In that final battle, he's not killing the real Sephiroth, but the figurative destruction of the evil within. And by doing so, what has Cloud really accomplished? Cloud: "Although she should've returned to the planet by now, something stopped her and now she's stuck......" That's right, by destroying what was obstructing Aeris’ passage, he can now be reunited with her, the person he desires to "meet" the most and his "Promised Land". Although only a hand is shown reaching out to Cloud, it's Aeris’ theme playing in the background. To misconstrue this into Aeris’ hand leading him to Tifa would be doing Cloud an injustice. Tifa is not a part of that dream any longer nor will she ever be again. So ultimately whatever you interpret that scene to mean or your stance on the love triangle, Cloud will always say: Cloud: "...I think I'm beginning to understand." "An answer from the Planet..." "the Promised Land..." "I think I can meet her... there." I don't mean to be offensive, but this is just overanalyzing things. "Warped and needed clarification?" Cloud didn't need to clarify his feelings for Tifa at that time. There was no conflict there. The thing that was most warped was the Nibelheim event and Cloud needed clarification on that promise he made to Tifa. And the memories shown are what he kept within himself. The fact that those memories are more defined and that stick out at us means that they hold importance. These are the memories most associated with Cloud's original character and other memories would be irrelevant at the time.
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:57 am
schzoid_baka xd I fixed up the my little fanart on paint. it's nothing complex, but it's just brimming with cuteness. and the first picture is on the last photo dump was done on abi-station!! xd I can recognized those things from a mile away!!
*shields eyes from the cuteness*
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:59 am
Twindream .............*Sighs* I tire of your harsh words. Seriously, I was just pointing out my opinions, but you really just force it down people's throats. Quote: um I'm sorry again I didnt write these I found them under essays on the site fair ophelia so ya : ]
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:03 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. Twindream .............*Sighs* I tire of your harsh words. Seriously, I was just pointing out my opinions, but you really just force it down people's throats. Quote: um I'm sorry again I didnt write these I found them under essays on the site fair ophelia so ya : ] Oh....sorry again then. sweatdrop But still, it'd be nice to at least "change" the offensive material a bit.
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:08 pm
Twindream .[.pink.spider.]. Twindream .............*Sighs* I tire of your harsh words. Seriously, I was just pointing out my opinions, but you really just force it down people's throats. Quote: um I'm sorry again I didnt write these I found them under essays on the site fair ophelia so ya : ] Oh....sorry again then. sweatdrop But still, it'd be nice to at least "change" the offensive material a bit.
but if there are really inapporiate or obscene things I tend to take it out completly
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:10 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. Twindream .[.pink.spider.]. Twindream .............*Sighs* I tire of your harsh words. Seriously, I was just pointing out my opinions, but you really just force it down people's throats. Quote: um I'm sorry again I didnt write these I found them under essays on the site fair ophelia so ya : ] Oh....sorry again then. sweatdrop But still, it'd be nice to at least "change" the offensive material a bit.
but if there are really inapporiate or obscene things I tend to take it out completly Thanks!
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![.[.pink.spider.].'s avatar](https://a1cdn.gaiaonline.com/dress-up/avatar/ava/8d/e7/20e4103e1de78d_flip.png?t=1252290266_6.00_00)
