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Really? I thought he was origionaly from DCAU.

Ah, Ok. Didn't they do that with Mercy aswell?

I would also like to this moment here and now to say that I've always used this argument.

People don't take into consideration that the Z-Fighters make a conscientious effort NOT to destroy the planet in question although it would take that to destroy the villain in question.

Lo and behold Gokou's displayed that he can:

1. Generate enough energy to counter a planet destroying attack as he did with Vegita in their first encounter.

2. Again The Buu Fight took out the planet, thus proving that he can indeed destroy a planet as well. He just WOULDN'T CONSIDER IT if it's inhabitants have no way of at least escaping alive.

Seriously, Supe's good natured heart and "Invulnerability to Ki?" are the only things that are saving him in this fight.

Oh, I've got more problems with what's been said and heck, I'm only on page three sonny. A lot of argument's in Superman's favor have been crapped attempts in denial. The most notable being the infamous "Just because he says he can do it doesn't mean he can unless they actually DO IT." Frankly this is bullshit. As if bluffing about such a thing as being able to destroy a solar system or even a planet would have any point.

Again, I'll use Batman, he himself would think you're out of your mind and you'd be an ever BIGGER fool to even chance it.

Take it for what it's worth for God's sake.



Cell can and I'm sure Buu can as well.



Only real leg you have to stand on here is during the Saiya-jin saga when it took him almost a whole day to get back and when he returned to Earth from his fight with Frieza, the latter being due to the fact he had to cross the vastness of space to do which he can't simply because he can't breath in space.



Not true. Someone said something similiar in my Captain America v. Kenshin thread saying that Kenshin can't go faster than 30mph which I'll swallow, but Gokou, NO. He can easily move faster than a plane and you know that and that's not even using Shunkan Idô (which teleports you INSTANTLY RATHER THAN AT A CERTAIN SPEED) which exceeds any multiples of light speed that Superman or even The Flash can achieve.

INSTANT means INSTANT.




This can be rather funny. Take the Frieza fight for instance, Gokou wanted to forfeit the fight due to the fact that the battle was taking it's toll on Frieza MORE despite the beating Gokou himself also was taking yet Gokou said that his power was increasing whereas Frieza's was decreasing.

Kryptonians seems to be a warrior race themselves but Saiya-jins seem to be born to FIGHT within every sense of the word.



I've always agree with this too.

Heck, Iceman is an Omega class mutant, and though she didn't or rather can't absorb his full potential are you going to be so quick to dismiss the fact simply because it was off panel?

As I've said in the Piccolo v Superman thread. An author who is being completely serious doesn't have to say per se that "My character can destroy a planet", comics are a form of art and sometimes no you should ALWAYS try and read between the lines.

As Kami says I think we've been shown more than enough to support the "so-called" supposed feats of some Z characters.

I think this whole "seeing" argument is blasé and a fool's excuse for a denial of an argument.

He may also have a point with the SSJ3 Gokou being faster in Gotenks, strength and durability may not be directly proportional to powerlevel but SPEED definitely is otherwise even Kuririn would've been able to follow Gokou's fight against Recoome which HE COULD NOT.




We're talking about anime, it's canon if you watched it, filler or not. If you were talking about manga then you're right that doesn't exist.



Seriously, your ethics dictate the fact whether or not you would even try to destroy the planet or solar system to begin with. Yet, people tend to discredit Gokou for not being able to do it and the HYPOCRISY comes into to play when someone makes a stupid remark along the lines of "Gokou just blows up the Sun and he wins", pro Superman debaters retalliate with "Gokou" wouldn't do that as if they only accept the fact that Gokou CAN destroy planets when it's THAT convenient for them.

Alas, the former is correct. The fact is that Gokou, simply wouldn't NOT COULDN'T, meanwhile Frieza, Buu, Cell, and heck even pre-Android Saga Vegita we're ALL MAD MEN and had the insane, twisted, ethics to do so and WILL DO SO.

BATMAN WOULD EVEN AGREE TO THAT 0 percent if he had to profile Gokou and these four nemesis.

I believe its 99% LS without the IT;
however, as stated earlier, IT is only better over long distances.
If goku was racing superman from mercury to pluto, he'd win.
If it were from [any] Wendy's to [any] McDonald's, he'd lose.
IT is infinitely faster AND slower than LS.

I agree with only the 'saying he can do it part.'
Cell, for all purposes, had no reason to lie. I, believe 100% that he was telling the truth.
Vegeta, for all purposes, had no reason to lie as well.
Those 2 points will always be in my mind the way they are, unless Toriyama himself says otherwise.

Cell and buu have nothing to do with Goku.
(However, I do believe that Gokku would have the same footing in space as he would on earth, just imo.)

The humans thing has no relevancy/backing.

I agree with the batman thing.
Unless evidence says otherwise, the implied meaning [of the author] is to be taken.
(Which is why you should believe my 2nd paragraph; but your choice.)

You're taking it a bit too personally.

But first at the point of the second posting I was at page 14 by then. No longer page 3.

The Cell and Buu reference was just for the record, i.e. Frieza isn't the only one whose been in space without a spaceship. Cell has Frieza's space breathing capabilities as well as he even stated granted that he's abo9ut 1/8th of Frieza's DNA and Buu the only thing that actually killed him was the Genki Dama which is a special case.

Doesn't have anything to do with Gokou but I'm just saying.

Also, I NEVER said that Gokou would destroy the Sun.

I'll break this into smaller pieces so you can understand it better. I said and I quote:



To put it in lameman's terms, I'm saying that Pro Superman debators often say that Gokou can't destroy a planet let alone a solar system in general.

THEN WHEN the feat is ACTUALLY suggested and proven to be TRUE then they say "Okay, we'll accept that Gokou CAN destroy a planet and maybe a Soloar System but that's okay, because he wouldn't do it."

It's just weird.

I'm simply saying that it's been proven so accept it in the here and now rather than just when it's convenient because you know that he wouldn't.

As for Batman, I'm just saying how OBVIOUS it is as to the reason why Gokou hasn't actually attempted to blow-up any planet or Solar System.

Compared to someone like Frieza or Cell who is a LUNATIC and enough of one to consider genocide, the former pretty much has commited genocide, Gokou is a perfect saint.

And I use Batman because he has always been excellent at understanding the criminal mind.

As for Shukanido a.k.a. IT, you can check wikipedia on THAT.

It says that has no set time UNLIKE Superman or The Flash who move at multiple speeds of light.

No set time means INSTANTLY.

Instantly means immediately. THERE IS NO DELAY IN ACTION. That means when Gokou uses it he's just there.

Light speed or any multiples of it is STILL actually traveling the distance via actual speed and time, THAT IS NOT INSTANT.

Again check wikipedia if you don't believe me.

I'm not powering Gokou up. But if the info is there from a credible source then...what do you want me or anyone else to do about it?

and unfortunately the ASSUMED 99% of light speed ISN'T NOWHERE near INSTANT.

It's called Instant Transmission to begin with NOT 99% of Lightspeed Transmission.

You're right. *owns the first two seasons*

Wrong.

First and foremost I apologize it I pressed some buttons. Mind you it was NOT intended that way.

Alas, debating can be brutal.

A lot of it is repetitive.

A lot of it nowadays seems to be false evidence against Gokou, just as false as people thinking Gokou is GOD compared to Superman.

Methodlogical doubt is good and all but sometimes you just got to take things at face value.

It's as if people always want animators to go out of the way of the storyline just to show a character can do something, although the tone, atmosphere, etc. of the series suggests strongly that the claim isn't a joke.

I apologize to Andrew again.

My problem isn't with Andrew nor he need to actually see things happen, I'm talking about this whole:



Okay good logic. But some people tend to use this when it's convenient for them when Character A's claim ISN'T that farfetch'd.

Gokou saying Cell can destroy a Solar System especially when Cell himself says it as well doesn't seem so farfetch'd anymore.

Lex Luthor saying that Superman eats other planets as a source of power is a lot more farfetched, simply because we know that Superman has for one never displayed that he's eaten any planet and 2 as 4th wall onlookers into Superman's world we know that Lex would be lying because we have all of his info just given to us and constantly updated if it were to ever become true. Furtherman Superman himself would say it's not true either.

Back to the DBZ case, so far we have Cell claiming that he can destroy not only a planet but a solar system. Gokou supports this claim. At this point it's 2 for 2 in favor of the argument opposed to Lex's claim about Superman which at this point was 1:1 Lex in favor and Superman against.

Now lets just say for fun we BREAK THE FOURTH WALL and we, the readers are the jury. Superman and Cell are the defendants and Lex and Gokou are plaintiffs in their respective cases.

In Superman's case we have a complete profile on him and we've never seen him commit the supposed claims so he has a good chance of being believed when he says he doesn't do it.

Cell, Gokou says he is capable of said crime and Cell is virtually pleaing guilty by agree with Gokou, the problem is that we've yet to see it. For all some of knows THEY BOTH COULD BE LIARS.

Thus, we look at the next best thing see if there is evidence that makes it even see if the possibility is true.

Usually, ki attacks of one kind or another are the source of a planet's destruction in DBZ. The question is how much ki? We can't exactly measure it like we would the explosion of a nuclear impact from an atom bomb. But we do know the ballpark range of the powerlevel a person has to be at to even destroy a planet.

Prior to Cell we've seen four cases where an astonomiclal body has been destroyed, Kame Senin, Piccolo, Vegita, and Frieza. It would make sense to use the former 2 since Vegita and Frieza actually destroyed planets. where as Kame Senin and Piccolo only destroyed the moon which is only a fraction of the Earth's size anyways thus it would take less force to destroy it than Earth itself.

We know Frieza has destroyed two planets himself and probably more granted his profile but two confirmed. Vegita and Namek. Frieza is full of himself, he always thought that he was so strong that no one would EVER be able to touch him so he probably hasn't gotten any stronger since destroying Vegita first. Then he destroys Namek.

So one would assume that you'd have to be at Frieza's level to destroy a planet right?

Wrong!

Between the two incidents we have Vegita destroying Arlia which since we are talking anime did actually happen although it was a filler not to mention he threatened to blow up the planet Earth during his bout with Gokou, which Gokou successfully generated more than enough force to counter the blast albeit by a marginal line but successful nonetheless.

Thus, we now can assume that Vegita's level is the new minimum. Now granted that this is very early in the series and that the characters have far progressed beyond that and that Cell appeared during one of the later stages, hell, he was one of the reasons why the Z-Fighters had to get stronger otherwise there would be no need for them to go through all that training if every villain's powerlevel was the same as Frieza's from the Frieza Fight on out.

That said we know he's already a well established planet buster granted he's on a higher level than Frieza and Saiya-jin Saga Vegita. So what's the next stage?

Solar system busting?

Does it seem all that NOT FEASIBLE that Cell AND GOKOU make the claim that Cell can indeed the destroy a solar stystem when we already know he's well above planet destroying?