We're in a tournament that just had half of its members cut. The amount of notoriety and attention to the guild as it is is already low. The only reason myself and a few of those who lost are keeping around is to see how far down the rabbit hole this tournament will go. Our interest borders on who goes through and who doesn't. After the second round, that goes down even more.
Your fight isn't special. Your character isn't special. The fact that someone like Hank Hill is the glow of attention already says enough about what is considered fun right now. The moment both jello and Hank Hill are eliminated by Jecht, no matter how good you thought your fight was, it will be lost into obscurity by the brightness of Super Hank Hill's propane explosion. Or Jecht's Jecht Shot Mark 2000.
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:45 pm
Sunsworn
Yeah, okay, so I have a job. I work six days a week. My fight has more responses than any other fight. If I was lagging behind, I'd feel guilty, but I'm not so I don't. I've put my back into fighting despite the fact that I work insane hours at an insane pace.
Sorry Savoki. You're just going to have to settle for having the longest fight that also happens to be one of the best in this round.
I wasn't dissing you in the slightest fyi, for the most part you have been active. I just agree regarding those who do not post for like 3-4+ days. I do appreciate this little war, but if possible push one more response so we can rule with page 3 xD
I like where Vin is going with this, though...because I've often wondered what -really- makes for the best "rubric" criteria when it comes to fighting tournament.
Personally, I based my original concept like so:
Tournament Grading Rubric
In the event that a particular match requires professional judgments (upon disagreement, or extraneous circumstances), this rubric will be utilized by the judge(s) to determine a victor. Divided into ten, distinct, categories each represents a cumulative point total of ten. The objective is to receive as high a score as possible, with 100 points representing perfection. The decision will, ultimately, rest with the grade assigned by any present judges. In the event that the fight is graded by more than one designee, the scores will be averaged together to determine the winner. An eleventh, and final, division known as “Special” also counts for an additional ten points, and may be granted OR subtracted from the points based upon special occurrences that lie outside the other ten classifications. The categories are as follows:
[1] Grammar & Spelling :: Though this is never a requirement, we should always strive to better ourselves in this. Each word can be as a wound upon the eye if misplaced, or inaccurately presented. Thus, it is expected that each warrior shows some knowledge in this area.
[2] Conservative & Concise Posting :: Simply put, are your posts easy to read and appropriately written. I, for one, do not mind reading paragraph roleplay and have been known to engage in them myself. However, in combat, lengthy explanations on the sunshine glinting from your sword will not make you a better fighter. Pour that detail into your combat actions, and save the internal monologue for your victory speech. The other side of that coin is the art of precision, or how accurately you can flesh out your action in words. That is the difference between a good fighter, and a great fighter.
[3] Technique :: This boils down to how interesting you are as a combatant. Some may say that this is hardly worth mention, and…were this real combat…I would agree. But we operate within a venue of literature, and each crossing of steel is a matching of words. It is not for ourselves that we act, and thus it is imperative that the audience be taken into account.
[4] Damage Threshold :: It is often said that the true measure of a warrior is not taken by his victories, but rather his defeats. That is especially true here, where only the opponent may decide the outcome of our attacks. Thus we all must submit ourselves to the honorable law of conflict, and learn to take a hit for the sake of realism. How much damage did you dish out, and how much damage did you receive?
[5] Environmental Tactic :: The use of one’s world to an offensive end. You will be judged on how your character incorporates the world into their actions, and how that application affects the battle. Actively engaging in noted hazards will net additional points, as will directing your opponent to harm via such means.
[6] Observation of ‘Realism’ :: Despite the argument that fantasy allows misuse of the physical law, certain elements of the wider world must be taken into account. Gravity, Friction, Inertia, Momentum…These must always be observed. Proper use of the natural laws will always be considered when judging a fight, as will the reverse. Did the player use any type of natural logic?
[7] Punctuality :: Though, at times, it can be difficult to get online, consideration must be taken when one joins a tournament such as this. Each post of a character is dependent upon a response, and the time between these replies can be hard to accommodate. Be considerate of your opponents, and try to stick around until after your battle is concluded. A 24-hour allowance will be given, out of compassion for the fickle nature of the world, but if a post is not delivered within that constraint points will be deducted.
[8] Player Principles :: Also known as sportsmanship, this has little to do with what happens inside the battle…but rather, the events that happen beyond it. As a player, you are expected to be civil and courteous at all times. Name-calling, undermining, or any other such activities will result in point loss.
[9] Observation of Rules :: Throughout the course of the tournament, the basic forum rules will still be observed. As such, all infractions that occur during a fight may be taken into account and result in a decrease in points. However, this bracket can also be a boon to any player as it starts off as a perfect score of ten.
[10] Battlefield Dominance :: Ultimately, a difficult thing to evaluate. This detail is measured in the amount of control exacted upon the battle by each combatant. It questions, and answers, ‘Who led the fight?’. To the one who directed the flow of battle, or most greatly altered it’s course, shall go the most points.
Special :: As the title suggests, this category is reserved for events that can not be graded within the limitations of the above definitions. As such, only those judging the fight can award or subtract these points. At such point, an explanation will be given by the judge as to why he chose to utilize the special points.
Given that, I think we should discuss what exactly makes the best...most subjective...rubric for these events.
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:41 pm
I am happy with my fight despite it being so short.
Despite how few posts we had, our posts equal 2-3 posts of other fighters.
I am happy with quality as long as the fight is believable and exciting.
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Haelikor
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:54 pm
Hnn..
How to put it... there is truth in the subject.
People tend to prioritize participation based on a balance of investment to reward. Gold, victory, conversely the defeat of people they want to best or disagree with, tests of their character; all motivations to justify the cost: time.
Tournaments have always ran into this "issue" where, once someone is defeated, they disappear. Why? Because now, no matter how much time they invest, they'll not get anything in return. Spectate? Speculate? Converse and lend to others? None of these things reward the person, and so the person will naturally drift away.
Put in other words: after your shot at progressing is over with, there's only so much you can do roleplaying at the tournament's local ******** hotel with any real interest.
It's something I've been brainstorming for the new line of HoHs to rectify. Because it is a reoccurring constant and unless resolved, will always be so.
Now, regarding why certain fights in this tournament garner general interest while others do not.. it's somewhat obvious. Take Bojuka Brown/OutlawD versus Hank Hill/myself. One doesn't have to care about the outcome of the fight - whether he or I progress is meaningless to most.
[+] To witness Bojuka Brown bust out even more broken abilities. Like watching a train wreck. [+] To witness even more rapidly Photoshopped images of moi. [+] To behold the extents I can take such a stupid character concept, I mean Super Saiyan Hank Hill. [+] To see, with their own eyes, OutlawD slowly crack from the pressure and the grim realization he will be left behind where a Texan propane salesman with a Saiyan bloodline will move on.
And so on; it's certainly not a "good fight," yet there's so much bullshit and silliness to it that it's hard not to take a passing glance at, whether that's out of appreciation of Hank Hill or out of spite of Bojuka Brown and his earlier tournament "Velocity" incidents notwithstanding.
I'm tolerant of others not posting frequently. Things happen and priorities get shifted. But I do take objection to tardiness of an individual online on Gaia each and every day. Take issue, with tardiness that at the long awaited end leads only to the fields of velocity.
That tardiness is trash! Human refuse! Garbage not fit to breath in another breath of life!
AKA I need lunch.
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:45 pm
[5:19:43 PM] Slash Zinrai: Hmmm...M'kay. Next questionay! [5:20:43 PM] Slash Zinrai: I'd mentioned the grading rubric earlier, in the CoC(kiss) OOC...Where do you stand on what makes the BEST rubric? [5:21:05 PM] Slash Zinrai: Lol! *CoC[k] [5:31:46 PM] Lord Haelstrom: It's variable based on the crowd you're serving and some of the particulars of your tournament. But essentially:
Might: This is a fusion of "dominance," "damage," and "logic." If your dominance is gained from illogical actions, then it is not dominance at all. This is essentially how well one played their actions, how well one thought things through, how well one dictated the pace of the matchup.
Flavor: This is a fusion of "creativity," "entertainment," "true to character," "etc and so forth. Essentially, did you stay in character (something that can be measured since if your brooding swordsman who vows to never kill suddenly starts shitting the arena floor and babbling internet memes..), did you strive for an entertaining bout, did you do anything showstoppingly unique, did you figure out a creative set of solutions to a scenario, so on and so forth. Essentially everything that does not directly correlate to you kicking your opponent's a**. There is a slight weight to Might (in the proposed bonus down below), and if you roleplay your serious swordsman using orthodox swordsmanship well, you'll do well in this category so you don't have to be a Xanatos speed chess playing clown to get ahead here.
The above can be broke down into sub-categories as the judge sees fit, but will overall have a x/10 score per category totalling a standard 20 score. Each number out of 10 will be given an example of what behavior is typically seen to gain that number in the rubric/example piece.
Penalties:
Obscenely poor writing - normally this doesn't matter as much and is a null subject, but if the roleplayer literally writes so vaguely and poor that people have a hard time even understanding what it is they're doing, they earned this. Probably a -2.
Poor sportsmanship - most tournaments have used this for IC issues, but I prefer it for OOC issues. Not working with your opponent, taking OOC jabs in your posts, having big NO U fights - this will always be preempted with a verbal warning, but should it continue, awards a -3 penalty as it is behavior that should not be condoned or considered acceptable.
Unexcused tardiness - should a participant not reply within 2 days of the opponent's last post without first clearing it with staff why they're not able to do so, they will receive a -1 and a further -1 for each additional day they are tardy. E.G. After 2 days, -1, after 3 days, -2, and so on. Probably being too lenient on the way this scales but, fits right.
Bonuses.. depends on the teamwork aspects and tournament specific gimmicks I suppose. Kind of something to iterate on, since too many bonuses creates point inflation. Probably a +2 "winner" bonus if there's a blatant and decisive winner, so that way it's less likely other point varying aspects can circumvent the person who legitimately won out the bout.. winning.
[5:31:52 PM] Lord Haelstrom: Or something. I'm hungry still.
Haelikor
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Zou Kraze
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:19 pm
I think the entertainment value of these tournaments are far too high of a priority.
I get that no one wants to read a "boring" fight but that is subjective and really not a far criteria for others to be judged on. It's a rigging mechanic imo and if in play should do little to factor towards the outcome.
But that goes back to making a decision as to whether or not we are hosting a roleplay event based on a tournament or a tournament that becomes a roleplay event.
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:26 pm
Colonel Iyam A Heita
It seems to me like you can define "technique", and have it take the place of "entertainment". Cleverness, creativity, and showmanship are pretty much universally noteworthy.
Like, any two people can see a thing and say "Well, that was interesting"...even if the overall perception varies.
An excellent example: Vin (Yusuke) used a spirit gun from behind his back, firing it from the hand that was locked in place...It was REALLY cool how he did it, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Some of the other judges thought it was clever, but not really "awesome"...
All in all, we thought it was worthy of note...even if we disagreed on the "why".
I think the entertainment value of these tournaments are far too high of a priority.
I get that no one wants to read a "boring" fight but that is subjective and really not a far criteria for others to be judged on. It's a rigging mechanic imo and if in play should do little to factor towards the outcome.
But that goes back to making a decision as to whether or not we are hosting a roleplay event based on a tournament or a tournament that becomes a roleplay event.
I disagree almost vehemently.
While subjectivity is almost impossible to avoid and is a problem, "entertainment" should never be ignored or considered less desirable. A roleplay should ultimately stride to "entertain:"
-The judges. -The participants. -Peers reading.
..always. Entertainment does not necessarily mean "My gosh, this is the best fight ever!" or "HEHEHE" but, instead means that an attempt to derive mutual satisfaction was had, that the focus is not ultimately just victory but instead deriving some form of enjoyment and sharing that with your fellow roleplayers.
To devalue that leads to s**t small-time tournaments where everyone's trying to out-optimize their opponents and is teaching the wrong lessons.
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:54 pm
Agreed but Gaian tournaments put too much focus on it and essentially it becomes a rigging mechanism because the diversity in what people find entertaining.
It becomes too personal and used to as a limiter as opposed to an example.
Ultimately Vinny's rubric guide is the best and most sensible in that personal enjoyment is only considered after.
So, maybe the best system is one that weighs different criteria based on overall importance...So, for example, you could have Punctuality be worth more total points than Concise posting...or Grammar.
The sum total would decide the winner, as opposed to having someone who's a tactical mastermind losing because judge A felt like "Oh, that wasn't very funny...so -10".
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:05 pm
Colonel Iyam A Heita
Agreed but Gaian tournaments put too much focus on it and essentially it becomes a rigging mechanism because the diversity in what people find entertaining.
It becomes too personal and used to as a limiter as opposed to an example.
Ultimately Vinny's rubric guide is the best and most sensible in that personal enjoyment is only considered after.
If people are going to rig, they'll rig.
They'll see dominance, damage, and all those objective things subjectively. They'll bias and they'll act poorly.
A bad judge will be bad regardless of the system by which they operate under.
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:15 pm
Lord Haelstrom
If people are going to rig, they'll rig.
They'll see dominance, damage, and all those objective things subjectively. They'll bias and they'll act poorly.
A bad judge will be bad regardless of the system by which they operate under.
Same thing can be said for people wanting to be technical. Or trying to out-optimize. It's just engrained into the competitive nature of this sport.
What I am striving for is overtness. I want things to be blatant.
Like for my tournament. I set up the rules in such a way so that subjectivity is blatant. Tres gave me the idea when he made the statement of " If you tell people what you want...they can atleast choose to play into it. By being vague, you leave people stumbling amongst themselves trying to please you."
It makes sense to me. I want what I want to see to be apparent.
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