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Yeah, basically symbolizing his angst, his guilt for Aeris' and Zack's death and also his guilt for Tifa.

HOLLY CRAP I can't even believe that still exists. I had completely forgotten about it. I remember reading that when FF7 fanart was almost impossible to find. Anyway I still pretty much agree with what that person wrote even though it is outdated. I wrote her an email telling her that she should update her site or at least that page. That site is so old though that I don't even know if she'll get it or if she even cares about it.

I also found a link to this on the site you gave me.

I'd like to make one final comment before this thread closes. I don't know about the rest of you, but to me, it was very clear that Cloud had special feelings for Tifa. I think for some of us, this debate has become less of a question on "who does Cloud love more", and more of a question on "does Cloud love Tifa at all". This has become quite clear from some of the comments that have obviously been made to dismiss Tifa as a candidate entirely. Albeit, rather vainly.

The lifestream scene is a significant one in that it sheds some light as to the true nature of Cloud's relationship with Tifa. Through this scene, we are able to take a peek at Cloud's inner psyche. His memories. His deeper thoughts. They are all shown to involve Tifa. And although they may not have hinted at a relationship directly "on their own", I think it's important to look at them from a holistic point of view. Singling each one out and looking at them one by one is not adequate. They all merge and mingle together to form Cloud's past and essential personality, so that it's important to look at them as a "whole".

The point isn't that Cloud says "I love you very much, Tifa" in one scene alone. Rather, the point is that his inner thoughts were all about her, and this has been proven in a myriad of scenes. I think she has to be a very special person to qualify for that. Indeed, Cloud loved Aeris. But the memories of his inner psyche did not even involve her once. And I think this speaks a lot for Tifa. I think you have to be really really hateful of Tifa to deny that Cloud ever loved her at all.

And while analysing individual lines of the script may be of some value, it's crucial to acknowledge that individual lines don't mean a great deal "on their own". It's important to look at the context of the dialogue also, as well as the other lines in the entire conversation. This is what I mean by taking a holistic point of view. Some Aeris-supporters seem to have made a habit of ignoring direct evidence, choosing to only analyse individual lines of the script. From memory, it has been said that "many of Cloud's statements in the lifestream scene have been proven to have no relevance to his relationship with Tifa". This, to me, is ludicrous.

If you choose to only look at individual lines in the script, then anything can, in fact, be proven, depending on how far you want to twist things. It can be likened to saying that Squall never loved Rinoa on the basis that he never said so. Or that, throughout the course of the game, the number of times he ignored her exceeded the number of times he devoted his attention to her. And indeed, this is what analysis of individual lines would indicate. Is it adequate? Clearly not.

Some have suggested that Cloud only saw in Tifa a way of being accepted into the groupie. Others have suggested that they were merely close friends. But these are rather misinformed views. From some of Cloud's statements, these views may seem a possibility. But I must emphasise that the analysis of individual lines as pointers to a character's personality is flawed and useless. Other lines in the game have to be included for consideration. To settle the issue about the lifestream scene once and for all, here are a few lines I've selected from that scene. Note that I've chosen several, not just one, to prove my point.

Cloud: "I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed into the group. Then I began to think that I was different. Then maybe, just maybe, they would invite me in."
Cloud: "That night, I called Tifa out to the well. I thought to myself that Tifa would never come, that she hated me."
Cloud: "If I could just get stronger, then even Tifa would have to notice me."

Cloud: "I was devastated. I wanted to be noticed."
Tifa: "Someone has to notice you? Who?"
Cloud: "Who? You know who! You, that's who."

Cloud: "It's important to me. I hate to say it but it's a very important memory... A sealed up secret... wish... tender memories... no one can ever know."

Tifa: "I used to wonder how Cloud was doing... I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an article about you."
Cloud: "Thanks, Tifa. Tell him what you told me later. He'll probably be so happy."

Tifa: "You were there. You were watching me."
Tifa: "You came. You kept your promise."

Tifa: "Oh Cloud! It's really you, isn't it?"
Cloud: "Yeah, Tifa. We finally meet again."

Together, these lines convey an undeniable romance between Cloud and Tifa. Is it possible that Cloud just wanted friends? No. Together, these lines indicate more than that. Is it possible that Cloud just saw Tifa as a friend? Again, no. Their relationship seems much more personal and exclusive than that, as these lines, together, indicate. Is it possible that Cloud loved Tifa? YES.

As they are memories that have been stored in his inner psyche for all his life, we can deduce that the object of these memories must have been very important to him. Whether it has caused him pain or pleasure, happiness or despair, the object of his greatest desire would be common to all these treasured memories. And clearly, it is Tifa.

It's not the other boys, they don't even qualify as they are only involved in one of the three parts of his mental reality. It's not the well either, it was only present in one part. And it's not the flower pot on Tifa's window sill, though even this beats Aeris in this regard. (I actually have a theory that Cloud's love for flowers is actually what turned him on. Not Aeris. Snicker.)

It's all Tifa. Deep down, Tifa is the object of Cloud's mind. Deep down, Cloud desires her attention. Deep down, Cloud loves her. The argument that it was only a childish infatuation is invalid, because as he grew to adulthood, these memories remained with him, still cherished, and still the cause of his personal problems.

There is more than enough evidence in other parts of the game to support the view that Cloud loved Tifa, and you'll find it if you're willing to see it. I suggest you actually look for it though, and not turn a blind eye to it, as some of you Aeris-supporters have done countless times.


---
Nibelheim Boy
nibelheimboy@ffonline.zzn.com

Yeah Claeris fans like to say "Oh yeah it's just a childhood infatuation." but if that's really true then why would ha hang on to it through adult hood. Why would that moment be the most important moment to him? And if Aeris meant soooooo much to him then wouldn't we see something like her death seen in his innermost thoughts?

I just found this great post on an Aeris site found here http://www.cloti-aikou.net/aeris/


Cloud x Aeris

So...Cloud screws dead women after all?

Let me just say that, Aeris' storyline does not revolve around Cloud's love and affection, form her point of view it's a girl trying to give some hope to world that is about to die. She knew what she had to do later in the story and that was to summon holy, if you talk about Aeris being the center of Cloud's love and what not I think your sadly being mistaken. I'm not partial to this couple because it has no basis, and for me I like couples who either had a basis in the past, or gain a basis later on for a romance. This couple starts off cute and fuzzy...to me, I see their relationship as a high school crush, you see how Aeris is all giggly anyway and cutesy and sometimes..not so cutesy. I think from Aeris' view she sees Cloud as a mystery and later on realizes that the Cloud she was interacting with is not really him. This is why she says "I want to meet you", nothing sexual like I read once somewhere. This is how it's being said that Aeris wants to meet Cloud, not so much that she knew him at all or wants to be with him, for Cloud's sake Aeris wanted to bring out the real Cloud so she could meet him. I really doubt you could really say in any terms that Cloud and Aeris "mutally" loved one another and were "in love", if it were so true than Cloud would not be able to carry on the game without mentioning Aeris, or even function properly without her. Cloud wanted to move on and find out why he acted the way he did, why he couldn't save Aeris and such.

From the beginning Cloud was opted to protect Aeris, so he obviously became attached that way...but the game doesn't always carry on as something personal and close with this couple, Aeris is flirting and being cute, and Cloud is trying to understand this girl. And this is why at some points Tifa is left to the side because she doesn't know how to react and what to say. So it's only natural that when Aeris gets kidnapped, and then dies later, Cloud only feels guilty because he kept saying that "he got her into this mess", but she kept on moving on and going ahead into danger, that's just her personality. I hardly see this as "in love" I see it as a relationship that's a mystery, they have a connection, but it's not exactly a romance, it's not developed enough, and theres not enough interaction between the two of them to conclude that Cloud loved Aeris beyond a doubt. In the end he wants to meet her, because he's whole and he's completed, it's only right that he'd feel that way. And somehow I still don't see this as romance...you can't completely say that they as a relationship had ups and downs and twists and depth, because theres nothing to base that on.

People can base it on a tragedy that they DIDN'T know eachother enough and Cloud will always pine for her love and what-not..I suppose. But I can't recall playing the game so many times and finding that Cloud always pined over her after her death. He wanted to find himself, his deepest thoughts consisted of Tifa, not Aeris. So it's easy to see that theres only a friendship, a friend who wants to carry and complete his friends wish (meaning Aeris') like a vengence, and not only for her, but for everything that Sephiroth did to Cloud and all his friends, including Tifa. Whenever Cloud recalled Aeris it was for the greater purpose and it was appropriate..such as at the Ancient City...recalling her materia..him thanking her. And on the highwind, where they all shared a setiment about her, not just Cloud. This is not meant to be taken the wrong way...I know Cloud cared about Aeris, who didn't, seriously, Tifa cried over her death too does that mean she loves Aeris romantically?

To clarify, I don't support this couple because it's not solid enough for me to be called a romantic POV. I find this relationship unbalanced and unfair in some ways. I say this because Cloud does not revolve around Aeris' love for him, Aeris revolves around a different part of the story, an important part. And although I'm very Tifa biased I see this unfair for her part considering HER storyline is based on love and her love for Cloud. A part of Cloud's inner thought on love belongs to Tifa, not saying his whole storyline revolves around Tifa, however you can't talk about Cloud without involving Tifa somehow in some way (as said by kris), and most of the time it involves something personal and deep which is partly a basis on love.

For Cloud and Aeris it was a fate that wasn't meant to be at all, their relationship seemed friendly only (I think of it as high school crush..), and still something neither of them couple comprehend mainly because they had such little time together to develop. Not only that but Cloud didn't know wtf was going on half the time on the first disk, so it makes it harder for me to believe he truly loved this girl he just met. If you wannna believe they had some spiritual bond and they've actually loved eachother forever, fine, but as far as obvious story telling goes in the game, it didn't happen.

I also don't care how much "research" you've done on this couple, and how much BS "symbolism" you can try and put into their relationship, it's only an excuse for what one cannot conjure up on the couple itself in the game. Just like people who make the excuse of saying there is an alternate version of the highwind scene between Cloud and Tifa, I wish people would stop making excuses and trying to "destroy" what beauty Cloud and Tifa shared (and the highwind scene difference doesnt cut it people) and actually love the couple of Cloud and Aeris for what YOU like it to be not whether or not it's canon. I said my peace.

Yeah and can you believe it came from an Aeris site!!! 3nodding

Here is another essay on Cloud and Aeris in KH from the same site.

I'm trying to keep this as short as possible but...what is with Kingdom Hearts folks? Let me point out as a friend said to me a few times, Kingdom Hearts is NOT about the Final Fantasy characters! Not only that, it does -not- prove Cloud and Aeris have a romantic relationship...observe. Both the Cloud and Aeris from FFVII are totally different from that of KH, Aeris is called Aerith and she lived in a town called Hallow Basin, I didn't think the Aeris in FFVII had lived there, maybe I missed that somewhere along the lines. Aeris is indeed dead as far as FFVII goes, so if it is Aeris in KH then it's some kind of reincarnation, not only that but the personalities of both Cloud AND Aeris in KH are not the same personalities of FFVII, or some people like to believe they are the same characters. No one made a fuss of FF Tactics, it's weird and they had just about the same point as them in KH, which is very little. Nomura says that the characters from KH and their respective FF games have nothing in common, the little bit in it is for people who go "OH MY GOD!!" and be happy =)

The point is that Cloud is searching for a light in the game, he goes around trying to find it or whatever and in the ending sequence when you beat the game you see Aeris doing her cute little pose and looking at Cloud...and...well? That's it! And that for some reason triggers people to believe that Cloud -loves- Aeris. Before I post what I really want to post let me settle something by myself and in my opinion. Cloud is always searching for Aeris, in tactics and in KH (suppossedly), the reason being is that Cloud had never met Aeris as the real Cloud. You all remember how Cloud said to Tifa before he fell into the lifestream that he hopes that Tifa will MEET the real Cloud again someday? Exactly folks, which is what Aeris has been trying to say to Cloud on the gondala on the date, that she wants to "meet" Cloud! And in the ending sequence he says to her "I think I can MEET her there" I'm not sure why people take this as romantic, I guess it could if you like those types of romances, but it's nothing more than someone trying to meet someone...why? Because Cloud had no resolution with her and he can't move on to decide his love unless he meets her, which is one interpretation. You see Cloud already knows Tifa, and was trying to move on with her in the end, but without meeting Aeris he couldn't be resolved. HOWEVER what Nomura says below should clear up any misconceptions about Cloud/Aeris in KH:

Okay then, so the person who Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?

Nomura--Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.

Hey look, there ya go, it's open to interpretation people, which means he could be searching for anyone, and for all you bias Cloud/Aeris people you can take it as you please, but it's still open to interpretation...which is what I had always thought (wow I'm cool..x_x). Just because Cloud sees Aeris in the end for some reason doesn't mean that he's in love with her and want's to bear her children...x_x and things like this make people turn weird and ignore what actually HAPPENED in FFVII between Cloud and Tifa who still had a deeper background ...yeesh. Just like people who confuse FFVII with KH, they are NOT the same game, and KH does NOT revolve around the FF characters, so there!

I'd also like to point out that while it's possible for people to say, yes, it means they loved eachother, and while it's hinted at in FF Tactics that he's morbidly obsessed over her death or whatever, keep in mind that Cloud and Aeris have never even held eachother romanticly, hugged, embraced, kissed (unless you count her death...but come on..x_x) so whatever relationship they are hinting at for Cloud x Aeris it seems to me that it ISN'T love but merely just a man trying to find his friend. I need to say nothing else about Kingdom Hearts that it's a different world, and they still never hugged or TOUCHED eachother yet so I don't see the big ruckus. People like to OVERANALYZE and then they completely screw up the real meaning behind things.

I'd also like to point out that the point of Aeris being in Kingdom Hearts is for the fans, and nothing but the fans. Why? Since Aeris is well dead in Final Fantasy VII, the game that started it all, they know, and everyone knows her death was important and she won't be coming back, so why not stick her in a game that fans can squeal and go AERIS!! See my point? So as far as Aeris "getting with Cloud" it might be possible as far as KH goes, even if it's very vaguely hinted at, but it would fanservice, since theres such a large fanbase..to appeal to everyone is hard. But KH is to show that that's as close as she's getting to Cloud end of story and fans can take it any way they want it was "a bonus" in nomura's words. So fans can say OMG YEAH THEY ARE TOGETHER or..WHATEVER NO THEY AREN'T. Got it? Good, glad we could clear that bs up.

And this is my line of thought =)