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 Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:30 am
I see people voting Eliwood and giving like honorable mentions to Hector and stuff. Can I just pose a question: Why vote Eliwood over Hector? What makes the difference in who gets that vote?
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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:52 am
Manic Martini Grimalkenkid Tharja also gets a dishonorable mention due to using Noire as a guinea pig. I still think she's better than Desmond (barely), but I'm honestly surprised no one's mentioned her yet. I was expecting this at some point. Sometimes in this topic, I actually shut my mouth to avoid influencing votes in ways I don't want to see (last week, I saw that it was a three way tie and thought about making a very thorough post justifying Galeforce but thought bringing attention to the tie might hurt Galeforce's odds). I similarly thought about bringing Tharja up but figured it might remind people who think she's a bad parent that they think that. Since it's been mentioned now, however... Tharja has a very large hate-dom for her so-called terrible parenting and being a terrible person in general in the eyes of many. Not going to argue the terrible person part since this is just about parenting (and she is a pretty ******** up gal: that's what makes her so charming), but when people call Tharja a terrible mother some important consequences need to be brought up: The person that allegedly abuses Noire as a child is not in this game. The easiest example to explain what I'm getting at is the LuciaXChrom A support one of the biggest things about time-travel. The parents you have for the children are not those kids' actual parents. The Lucina that comes from the future is not the daughter of the Chrom you play as and they both acknowledge that in their support. The NoireXTharja A support even provides its own example: Noire: You think that she was worried for my safety? That... she loved me? Tharja: Can't say. Not about her, at least. ...But I love you, if that helps. NOIRE heself, along with Tharja, are both aware that Noire's mother is not the same playable person to the fact that they refer to Noire's mother in the third person. Time-travel. Isn't it just GREAT? But even if you ignore the fact that the person you're criticizing isn't the Tharja we all know and love (or hate), Noire's mother made her talisman, which she never needed, didn't teach her curses in order to protect her daughter's pure heart, and sacrifices herself to make sure Noire survives. Sounds like a good parent to me. If I'd known that this was a controversial topic that people were purposefully avoiding, then I wouldn't have brought it up. I only count the characters in FE13 as parents because they still exist and their influences as parents are shown through their children. Time-travel shenanigans are complicated, so I look at it as they are the same person in essence but different things happen to influence their actions. You bring up good points, but one good turn does not negate a bad one. Tharja is a good parent in terms of protecting Noire from external threats, but she's still abusive. One can argue that you can love someone yet still be abusive to them, but that's a tangent I shant touch. So maybe I jumped the gun by saying she's almost as bad as Desmond, since you just showed that she's not. She exists in this weird gray area where she did some things right but other things very wrong. I don't actually hate her, though; I'm just not overly fond of her.
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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:27 pm
Nomad Rath I see people voting Eliwood and giving like honorable mentions to Hector and stuff. Can I just pose a question: Why vote Eliwood over Hector? What makes the difference in who gets that vote? I personally put Eliwood over Hector for the simple fact that Eliwood is a much more level-headed character. Hector has been established as a dead man walking, and not just because he gets killed towards the beginning of FE6. I don't think Hector is as reliable as Eliwood is. I'm sure Hector would be a fine dad (adorable even), but I don't think he would be as good as Eliwood.
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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:34 pm
Nomad Rath I see people voting Eliwood and giving like honorable mentions to Hector and stuff. Can I just pose a question: Why vote Eliwood over Hector? What makes the difference in who gets that vote?
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Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:25 pm
So I've been away for a few FE discussion eh.. Suppose I'll drop my thoughts in this one this time around. Dunno if I'll be around for the others for awhile. But we'll have to see~
Best: So we're talking about best parents? In that case I'd have say Fin hands down. I also like Eliwood, Hector and even commander Greil too. I was actually kinda considering Eyvel too, oddly enough... But I think there's just lots to like about Fin and deserves this spot for me. And I mean FE5 Fin in particular.Though I still like him even as a parent in FE4 if you even bother pairing him up with Lachesis(It's a bit of a pain in the neck to actually do since there's very little time to do so. It reminds me of doing the Renault supports in a way.) the kids will still turn out pretty good.
Even so the conversations that both he and Leaf share is very much there. And he is there for Nanna too, and especially in FE5 as well. But I agree with the points that FD made in the post before. I feel in FE5 it really expands his character to a whole other level. Thracia 776's opening is seriously so awesome.( I really would've liked to see it translated.. But that's a different story altogether. :<) The whole atmosphere and feeling is just so intense too. He not only has to take care of Leaf who is very small, but there's just so much going on at the time too. It just shows he really respected Cuan to go through so much in doing what he could to protect Leaf. And I really like the bond that those two have in that game. He's honestly one of my personal favorites in that game with the amount of screen time he gets here compared to FE4.
Worst: Oh yes, King Desmond for certain That man is just horrible. It's no wonder Zephiel is so messed up in FE6 for the crap he had to deal with before. I mean sure, Ethlin did make a stupid move for bringing her infant daughter to a battlefield. Though I agree with Rath since it's mainly due to bad writing. But this guy just takes the cake.
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Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:30 pm
Best: I like Fin. smile
Worst: I hate Desmond. sad
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Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:33 pm
There are tons of choices here. For me, I got this one
Best: Hector. He is out to protect his daughter no matter what, and it costs him his life. Dad all the way. Eliwood gets an honor.
Worst: I do gotta side with some and say Desmond.
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Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:17 pm
Best: I have to say. It was a tough choice for me to pick. There are some good and some that did very awesome job. However, I decide to give my vote to Greil. I will admit that I was thinking about voting for Emmeryn, even though I have mentioned about her in my previous post. However, the reason why Greil had my vote over Emmeryn is because the storyplot shows more depth of the relationship between Greil and his kids while Emmeryn's show little depth.
Worst: Desmond. I don't need to explain about him since everyone had already explained why he's the worst. Although Ashnard is a terrible father, I agree with what Modecai said about Ashnard; that he didn't tried to be a parent.
Ashnard was more interesting about having power under his control and he thought that having a child with laguz power could give him more control. But when he discovered that Soren doesn't have laguz power, it was pretty useless for Ashnard to have more power. Therefore, to get more power, he baited Rajaion by threatening Soren's life (despite he could also do the same to Almedha.) So even though Soren is his child, what Ashnard saw (before discovering Soren doesn't have laguz power) was just a tool for his power and control.
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:19 pm
I'll admit the past week has made me happy about doing this topic. The votes were close and there was about 2 pages worth of talk. I really want to see more topics thrive like this one did.
This weeks topic is: Best/Worst Fog of War Map
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:30 pm
We had some interesting points of discussion in the blast about this topic. My biggest question I feel like I need to answer in order to cast my vote is determining what to measure the quality of FoW maps by? Their challenge? Their subjective 'fun'? How the map and chapter is impacted by and interacts with FoW itself? It's a lot easier to recognize good and bad parenting, even with that being a very subjective thing as well. I think Tiki and I both see some merit in looking at how FoW interacts with and impacts the map.
That said, it still makes it hard to decide on a Best. A lot of good ones were tossed around: FE6 Ch14 (the desert chapter), FE10 Ch3-6 (Dawn Brigade Swamp FoW), FE8 Ch11B (Ephraim route phantom ship), and FE5 12x 14x - thanks for the correction, Tiki (valley escape chapter with villagers to move). It's the right chapter description at least.
I haven't decided on what to vote for, but I WOULD like to hear what people think about the topic and their opinions and ideas about what criteria to determine best and worst FoW Map.
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:55 pm
This is a tough topic, and I don't think I'll be casting my vote soon because it's been a very long time since I've played some of these maps that have FoW.
Still, I'd think that the criteria would be best represented by how well the FoW was implemented. For example, if a map used FoW to make it more challenging (and therefore more enjoyable for some) it would be better than a map where the FoW just makes the entire chapter more difficult to beat. Making a game hard to beat just for the sake of being hard to beat can make things more frustrating than enjoyable, and - in my mind - making the overall experience worse.
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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:15 am
What is considered enjoyably challenging is up to interpretation. I know in the blast last night there was some disagreement on FE8 11B. Some really like it, others find it super frustrating. I personally like it, but it isn't my favorite chapter by any means.
Also, gotta correct this mistake before someone else does. FE5 12x isn't the chapter with the valley and the villagers. 12x is the dandelion gang chapter. That's my fault since I am the one who suggested it. I meant to say 14x, which is the chapter that FD and I have in mind.
On that subject, perhaps the best way to find out how to judge a fog of war chapter is to just start talking about it and see what it is about our favorite fog chapters that make us like them so much. I'll lay it down for 14x later (I need to travel now), but I wanted to put that down.
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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:42 pm
Because this is especially subjective material, it definitely merits discussing what we consider "good" about a FoW map instead of everyone arbitrarily picking things with completely different definitions for what benefits the map. Because then we wind up with something totally random winning or losing or there not being a winner at all.
I'll leave thorough Thracia 14x coverage for you to do since you're interested, Tiki, but after thinking about it, for a bit, I consider FE10 3-6 to be the weakest of the four I was considering as stand-outs because it relies on FoW far less and interacts with it less as well.
FE10 3-6 is a great chapter, I definitely think, but not so much because of the FoW. It's your first chapter with the Dawn Brigade crew after Part 1 where you get to really use the characters you chose to develop earlier. It's also a very unique chapter in that it's shaped like a defend chapter but instead of having to survive so many turns, the goal is to kill so many enemies. And there are a good number of strategies and nuances you can deploy and enjoy that you haven’t been able to take advantage of up to that point or that you haven’t been able to utilize in a long time (Beastfoe+Vantage+Crossbow, a number of good support combinations finally become really useful, this is one of the last instances of Micaiah being able to safely pull Sacrifice+Wrath shenanigans, etc…). It’s also an exp fest if you know what you’re doing and can handle only killing transformed Laguz. There are a lot of things going for it (it’s also part of the reason Fiona is so bad, but that’s neither here nor there). But the FoW doesn’t contribute to that, really. You start in a corner and you’re never forced to leave it, so you’re never actually traversing the FoW. There isn’t a boss you have to march over to and kill and you don’t have to run around routing the map. You can stay put, be very successful on the map, and never have to worry about or really interact with the FoW factor. You CAN go boldly into the night and try to take out Lethe and Mordecai (I’ve managed to get as far as Mordecai before, but never Lethe…) but you’re never forced to or even rewarded for it if you do. Going into the FoW is an unnecessary risk in this chapter. It’s cool that it’s there but it doesn’t really improve the chapter much or force you to interact with it if you choose not to, so for these reasons I don’t think I’d consider it the best FoW in the series anymore.
The remaining three chapters all have a LOT going on in them and all arguably make better use of the FoW in them in terms of chapter design and being forced to interact with the FoW itself. I’ll say more about them later, I think.
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:09 pm
Well, you've probably beaten 14x more times than I have (that is, more than once), but I do want to talk about it. As well as get some more blood in here!
14x is an escape chapter in addition to being a fog of war map.Which means in order to beat the chapter, you need to navigate the fog with each character so that they can escape. What's more, once every few turns, a civilian will appear at the bottom of the map and begin to make its way to the exit. They keep on coming whether you are ready for them or not. The map itself is a narrow path through the mountains that opens up towards the exit. What makes this such a good use of the fog is, in my opinion, how much more control over the map the enemy has than you. Reinforcements are constantly coming in, and they're either falcoknights or dark mages with rewarp staves. They'll capture the civilians and run off with them if you don't manage yourself as you go through the fog. It is very possible for an enemy to appear outside your field of vision and get in your way. There's two bosses too, one attacking with long range magic and another running around with a killer axe. Rescuing the civilians is entirely optional and they'll keep on coming, but having to manage them in addition to navigating the fog to escape makes for a very involved chapter. We're talking FE5 fog and escape too. So it's escape or die, and everything that isn't lit is pitch black.
So yeah, I'm pretty sure that I'll vote FE5 14x best. I think it's well designed and enjoyably challenging. But I'd like to keep the discussion going.
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:21 pm
It's probably not what I'm going to vote for, but I'd argue that FE10 3-6 is successful with its FoW in the same way that other defensive FoW maps are. you have underleveled units taking on a whole laguz army and you can't see them coming, so it's harder to plan your defenses in advance. For some, this isn't a problem, people just need to be able to act on their feet. I can. But it can still be scary when you think you're golden and then suddenly in comes a tiger that kills one of your meatshields.
I think FE8's ship FoW map might work better with that fear factor, though.
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