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Indeed, Jesus Christ spoke with the Spirit of Moses on the Mountain and the Apostles witnessed it.

Hebrew Law (which was in effect only for the Hebrews, as Gentiles who converted to Judaism followed a different set of Laws), warns against contacting the dead. The reason being that God wanted the Hebrew people to look only to Him for Spiritual Guidence, not from the deceased, who, if wicked in life, could easily lead them astray.

"There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer." (Deuteronomy 18:9)

Various other translations of the Bible use the following terms or phrases here: augur, black magic, calls up the dead, charm, consults with spirits, fortune teller, interpret omens, look for omens, magician, medium, sorcerer, soothsayer, spiritist, weaves or casts spells, witchcraft, and wizard.

Clearly, translators have had a great deal of difficulty selecting unique English words or short phrases to match the 8 original Hebrew words:

yid'oni Making contact with spirits (not of God).
sho'el 'ov Making contact with the dead .
qosem q'samim Foretelling the future by using lots or a similar system.
m'onen Predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature.
m'nachesh Enchanting (perhaps related to nachash, a snake).
chover chavar Casting spells by magical knot tying.
m'khaseph evil sorcery; using spoken spells to harm other people.
doresh 'el hametim "One who asks the dead", probably via another method than sho'el 'ov

The reference to passing children through the fire has historically been interpreted as the ritual killing of the first born child in each family. Tribes surrounding the Israelites were believed to engage in this practice. In reality, it probably refers to a painful coming-of-age challenge that children had to endure. They would pass through the fire and (hopefully) emerge without much injury. In other traditions, they would run between two fires.

Regardless, here is some interesting information...

Occult Practices in the Holy Bible:

In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he divineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This is an ancient occultic method of divination in which a cup or other vessel is filled with water and gazed into. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.

Numbers 5:12-31 describes a ritual of black magic that the Priest would perform on a woman if her husband suspected that she he had committed adultery. Verse 17 says: "Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.." She and her husband would go, with an offering of barley meal, to the tabernacle. The priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. Otherwise, the curse would have no effect. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.

The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice.

Elisha was on his way to Bethel. Some small boys came out of the city and made fun of him because of his lack of hair; they called him "baldy". In a violent display of the power of black magic, Elisha cursed the children in the name of God. Two bears, apparently prompted by God, came out of the forest and tore 42 of the boys to shreds. The implication is that the children were all murdered. See 2 Kings 2:23-24.

Lots -- pieces of wood or stone with markings -- were used to determine the will of God. They were similar to dice. See: Numbers 26:55; Proverbs 16:33 Proverbs 18:18.

In 1 Samuel 28:3-19, the locus classicus for any examination of necromancy in the Hebrew Bible, Saul goes to a necromancer, a "spiritist," in order to conduct a seance in which he converses with the deceased Samuel. In an extraordinary turn of events, the first king of Israel consults the medium of Endor in order to "bring up" the old prophet, whose death had been reported in 1 Samuel 25:1 and was emphasized again at the beginning of this text, presumably to remove all doubt about Samuel's demise (28:3a). Samuel is then described as coming up out of the ground (28:13) and engaging in a conversation with Saul. The deceased Samuel announces that the next day Saul and his sons would be "with" him (28:19).

Daniel, the prophet, was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11.

More examples:

OLD TESTAMENT:

1. In Genesis 30:37-39 Jacob used wooden rods to magickally produce spotted sheep, just by (their parents) looking at the rods -- a typical form of Middle Eastern magick in those days.

2. See the Patriarch Joseph -- According to Gensis 44:2,5, the Patriarch Joseph had a special silver cup with which "he divineth". Divination was a well-used form of magick throughout the Middle East and indeed all over the world.

3. Moses -- In Numbers 21:9, Moses uses a brass serpent to heal those bitten by serpents -- a practice "well known outside the bible as well as within it, namely, making an image of a pest or affliction and presenting the image to the deity who in turn, would banish the pest."

4. In 2 Kings 13:21, a corpse was revived to mortal life when it came in contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha.

5. Casting Lots: Even commentators critical of the occult have had to acknowledge the magickal dimension of biblical "casting of lots" -- Not a vote by ballot, the casting of lots was outwardly identical to sortilege practiced throughout the ancient world by Pagans who sought to know the will of their various gods.

6. Jewish and Christian lore contains many references to occult incantations, amulets, charms, spells, exorcisms, etc.

NEW TESTAMENT:

7. Paul's Magick Handkerchiefs: Perhaps one of the best examples of New Testament use of magickal healing was the apostle Paul's sending special handkerchiefs among the people to heal (Acts 19:12).

8. Early Christians used "objects, rites, words and formulas charged with divine potency to force demons to yield, all in accordance with well-known contemporary rules of magick....they may have claimed this it was not magick, but it certainly looked like magick to others." (Ernest Cassirer, "An Essay on Man: An Introduction ot a Philosophy of Human Culture" 93)

9. Jesus - In many of the miracles of Jesus, the techniques parallelled closely the magic practices of the ancient world -- using spittle to heal, changing water into wine, using foriegn language incantations, raising people from the dead, etc.

10. The "Gifts of the Spirit" -- What traditional Christianity terms the "Gifts of the Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:7-20) and includes such things as prophesy, healing by laying on hands, speaking and interpreting tongues, working of miracles; discerning of spirits; etc. -- are known in other circles (pun intended!) as clairvoyance, clairsentience, precognition, etc.

Occultic techniques in the Christian Scriptures:

St. Paul engaged in sorcery as described in Acts 13:6-12. (Sorcery is here used in the same way as Exodus 22:18: a person saying magical words or performing magical rituals in order to harm or kill another person). During his journey to Cyprus, St. Paul met Bar-Jesus, who was an attendant of the Roman proconsul Sergius Paulus. He had a conflict with cursed Bar-Jesus, saying:

"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun." (NIV)

Bar-Jesus heard the curse and immediately was blinded.

St. Peter also engaged in sorcery, as described in Acts 5:9. After he determined that Sapphira had lied to him, he cursed her, saying, "How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. (ASV)

She collapsed and died immediately.

NOTE: Most of the above information was posted from various online sources outside of myself compiled together into a single presentation.

Refuted, by Catholic standards, but I'll fill you in again. In the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke, Elizabeth exclaims that Mary is "full of grace". Grace means "the favor of God". For her to be completely filled with the favor of God, she must be lacking in sin, lest she be somewhat separated from Him. It's very simple.

And that tradition has been present for hundreds of years, possibly since before the Council of Nicea (I haven't actually taken a look at dates, yet.) Now, tell me, how does that adversely affect your faith? I cant see bread being flesh or bread hurting your chances at salvation.

The importance of scripture or tradition is relative in that they are applied in certain contexts, and when applicable in those contexts, the scripture or the tradition may take precedence. The importance of scripture is subjective because of varied translations and interpretations. Basically, depending on what you're talking about, scripture or tradition may be more relevant.

But, remember, logic got me there. wink


But that is ignoring his human side completely. Jesus CANNOT do whatever he wants to. He must obey by human rules because he is human. That is why he could not bow down to the devil in the desert, or call upon angels to catch him if he flung himself off a tower. He very well could have chosen to, but it would have been a sin to. If he could talk to the dead without sinning, so may we.

A saint is someone in the grace and presence of God, according to Catholic definition. Even someone living could potentially be a saint. Elijah had been assumed, body and soul, into Heaven, and Moses was with him. Therefore, it is fairly obvious that Moses and Elijah, though not given the title "Saint", are both saints. Jesus spoke with them, so may we.