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 Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:14 am
Well I wasnt talking support teams. I intended to deal out my anti tank damage through meltas on storm troopers dropping in and on sentinels with lascannons. Should that be enough without needing to put anti tank guns in my squads of basic gaurdsmen? I was hoping to keep the gaurdsmen with lasguns and flamers.
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:35 am
King Kento Well I wasnt talking support teams. I intended to deal out my anti tank damage through meltas on storm troopers dropping in and on sentinels with lascannons. Should that be enough without needing to put anti tank guns in my squads of basic gaurdsmen? I was hoping to keep the gaurdsmen with lasguns and flamers. What you are doing right now is wistful thinking. Yes, meltaguns and plasma guns can take out armour, but everything has to be timed just right and deploy right for that to happen. I have used a full squad of deep striking storm troopers myself to take out tanks with their two plasma guns. It can be done, but it almost always results in the entire squad wiped out shortly afterwards, something I've always found a bit of a waste of 126 pts. Guardsmen armies without heavy weapons are a doable thing, but those armies are mostly backed by tanks and walkers who carry the heavy equipment and do the heavy hitting. If you tend on using a light drop trooper army with just assault weapons and if sticking to the fluff of it, no heavy vehicles, prepare to face a long road of perfecting your strategy on the road to victory. One way to even the odds, perhaps to the chagrin of your opponents, is to employ air support to fill out the slot of fire support. Another option is to either take normal sentinels or drop sentinels, the latter being able to deep-strike and come equipped with either a heavy bolter or a multi-melta. If you really like to go in style, go for the support sentinels with either a rocket pod or missile launcher.
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:29 pm
Lt. Brookman King Kento Well I wasnt talking support teams. I intended to deal out my anti tank damage through meltas on storm troopers dropping in and on sentinels with lascannons. Should that be enough without needing to put anti tank guns in my squads of basic gaurdsmen? I was hoping to keep the gaurdsmen with lasguns and flamers. What you are doing right now is wistful thinking. Yes, meltaguns and plasma guns can take out armour, but everything has to be timed just right and deploy right for that to happen. I have used a full squad of deep striking storm troopers myself to take out tanks with their two plasma guns. It can be done, but it almost always results in the entire squad wiped out shortly afterwards, something I've always found a bit of a waste of 126 pts. Seconded. I used to use a Storm Trooper squad with two meltas, but it's just not worth it. Half the time they'd die on impact or not be close enough to fire at the tank, and they always get killed soon thereafter, unsupported by the rest of the army. An alternative that you might want to think about, which I've started doing, is to put your Storm Troopers on a Valkryie or two, and have it act as a skimmer, coming in from the side of the board. However, this is also limited in its usefulness. I'd stick with Brookmans advice and use some flyers for your anti-tank needs, or the sentinels.
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:51 am
Well, i did say I intend to use sentinels, (lascannon to be specific). Due to fluff reasons I dont intend to use air support, theyre supposed to represent being teleported in rather than by air.
And I intended on having a lot of sentinels, but i still thought the storm troopers with meltas would work. if this isnt the case, what do you two reccomend, should I change the storm troopers to having plasma guns, just leave them as is or something else?
Also, even if not for anti tank purposes, do either of you reccomend heavy bolters in the infantry squads, or if Im looking for flak damage just stick to mobile stuff?
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:12 am
King Kento Well, i did say I intend to use sentinels, (lascannon to be specific). Due to fluff reasons I dont intend to use air support, theyre supposed to represent being teleported in rather than by air.
And I intended on having a lot of sentinels, but i still thought the storm troopers with meltas would work. if this isnt the case, what do you two reccomend, should I change the storm troopers to having plasma guns, just leave them as is or something else?
Also, even if not for anti tank purposes, do either of you reccomend heavy bolters in the infantry squads, or if Im looking for flak damage just stick to mobile stuff? Well, you will be able to squeeze twelve Sentinels into the army, no problems there, just try to alternate with some load outs, say half lascannon, the other half autocannons. It might also be prudent to give one or two of them improved comms then, so you can re-roll your reserve rolls. Storm troopers with meltaguns or plasma guns are both good, just don't mix those two weapons in a single squad. If you really want the squad to bust tanks and nothing else, then you should make the sergeant a veteran and give him melta bombs just in case, should your assault weapons fail to destroy the enemy vehicle. Heavy bolters are a cheap and reliable addition to infantry squads, the same goes for missile launchers really, the two workhorses in my own infantry platoons. If anything, heavy bolters are your best friend when facing horde armies. Missile launchers are good light-weight AT weapons who might be able to tackle a land raider if the dice are right, other than that, frag missiles are good for shooting at hordes. I'm not sure on your point limit and chosen doctrines, but a two platoon army, each with three to four squads, of which two each have a heavy weapon should do the trick. That'll give you four squads with just assault weapons, four squads with heavy weapons and two platoon command squads that can be tailored towards anything really, be it combat, shooting or leadership.
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:03 am
here, Ill just give you all the list I have for review. I usually just purchase an army as i go, but I always right up a 1500 list as a good focus to keep myself thinking of a theme. Keep in mind some decisions are fluff based, but still feel free to critique away, just expect some of my replies to include that excuse. Im not including the points, but i am including options taken, and as you two seem gaurd happy, Im sure thats enough.
Doctrines:
Drop Troops
Close Order Drill
Carapace Armor
Storm Troopers
Command Platoon
Senior Officer - Plamsa Pistol & Power weapon
Commisar - Plasma Pistol & Power fist and refractor
2 Meltaguns
Master Vox
Medic
carapace Armor
Death Watch
Codicier Librarian - Bolter, familiar, Might of heroes
4 marines
2 Veterans with power fists
2 Heavy Bolters
Inferno Bolter ammo
Storm Troopers
2 Plasma guns
Vox
Veteran - Power weapon
Deep strike
Infantry Squads (4 of them)
Carapace armor
Veteran - Bolter
Flamer
Vox
Junior Officer squads (2 of them)
Officer - Plasma pistol
2 Meltas
Vox
Medic
Carapace Armor
Sentinels (three for this list)
Improved comms
Searchlights
Lascannons
I realize typing this up that its over 1500. And there are changes im already thinking of. Anyways, its supposed to represent an Ordo Xenos force. I wanted that elite technologically advanced feel, thus the armor and voxs. The idea was an all teleporting force, thus the deathwatch as well.
Anyways, Ill explain more Im sure as we go, have at and tear into it.
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:25 am
I don't have my Death Watch rules handy so I can't comment on the complete list yet. The IG section of the list is a grand total of 1209 pts. and it is in my opinion very light on heavy weapons and AT weapons. Those three sentinels will most certainly be the primary tank hunting platforms in the force, but they will also be the prime targets for enemy armour.
There's nothing wrong with a good vox network, otherwise it wouldn't be in the codex. Especially seeing as your troops will deploy scattered a vox can come in handy because the command bubble doesn't come into play here.
I'd drop the refractor field on the commissar though, it's a bit of a waste. Might be best to just give him bionics. Also, it might be a good idea to either give your officers trademark items or the Iron Discipline doctrine upgrade, preferably the latter, as it makes them rock hard under fire.
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:33 am
I used to use the carapace armour doctrine a lot but found that even though the upgraded arour was useful, it wasn't useful enough. I had more success trading off the heavier armour, leaving that to my grendiers, for an extra couple of upgrades, or even a full squad if your army is large enough. You're playing guard, so inevitably you will essentially be forced into attrition and that few extra couple of shots might make the difference. But, conversely, with a drop army you might need that better save in order to survive a little longer... And are searchlights really necessary? You wouldn't want them permanently attached unless you only play nightfight. I like the fact that you're willing to use a suicidal command platoon, always makes for an awkward day for the enemy when the last unit you'd be expeting to charge you charges you. Just gotta remember that unless they annihilate enough enemies worth more points than they are it was a wasted death. I've gotta go with Brookman on the Iron Discipline, he gave me the same advice and suffice to say, my Commissar's haven't been very busy. And if you want to stick to fluffiness and deploy tanks, I have a conversion idea that you may be interested in: I present a useful tidbit from my otherwise usless jumble of WWII information, the Tetrarch Light Tank. As deployed by the Hamilcar Air Glider. A conversion of this type might be ppropriate for explaining why a jump trooper regiment has tanks. And if you want to go farther, I think you could make rules for the glider for Apocalypse. Found the M22 Locust too... apparenly it was airportable too...And the Emperor's Talon Recon-thingy you can order on the GW website can save you nearly a hundred dollars on sentinels if you want an arse load of 'em at once. Also, note: You get the Storm Trooper doctrine automatically if you take Grenadiers(it's in the IG FAQ). edit: I also want to know what you're opinions are on the use of non-GW tankmodels as units. I found a very beautiful Morser Karl kit at just about 40k scale and I'm deeply considering it. Same with a couple others but not nearly so much.
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:34 am
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:07 pm
Guys, if you read his description you'd see that his troops deploy through teleporters and not through the conventional drop-chute method. Sentinels could fit in perfectly, their Scout special rule reflecting the idea that they are the advance guard ensuring that the rest of the force ports in safely.
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:09 pm
Technically, tankettes are a subclassification of light tanks. A Tetrarch or Locust would be about the size of a Chimera, maybe a little smaller. And a Chimera would probably be a good place to start.
edit: And okay. Must've read over it, but still trying to prove useful.
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:57 pm
Lt. Brookman The IG section of the list is a grand total of 1209 pts. and it is in my opinion very light on heavy weapons and AT weapons. Those three sentinels will most certainly be the primary tank hunting platforms in the force, but they will also be the prime targets for enemy armour. I'd drop the refractor field on the commissar though, it's a bit of a waste. Might be best to just give him bionics. Also, it might be a good idea to either give your officers trademark items or the Iron Discipline doctrine upgrade, preferably the latter, as it makes them rock hard under fire.
Well the refractor field was more fluff as the commisar was going to represent an Interregator (sp?) watching over the army under this ordo xenos Inquisitor so he can do other things. That and I like the rules but dont see commisars in Inq armies.
Anyways, if you think bionics would be the better defense for the points cost, then I could swing that. As for trademarks or iron discipline, neither of them is useable over a vox right?
Tech Magos Sejanus: With my marines I always take searchlights, theyre 1 point and I dont want to add them or take them off everytime I think i might play a game with some nightfighting.
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:37 am
Well, since you're taking Storm Troopers and Drop Troops, that means that you can three five man teams of Storm Troopers with Meltas, and then more teams of Grenadiers with other weapons, such as the Plasmas. Personally, I don't like Plasma Guns, as that they tend to overheat and kill the Guardsman too much. However, if you like it, go for it.
As per Heavy Weapons in your normal infantry squads, think about it like this: Chances are that your squads will not just sit still for your first turn, instead moving into cover or view of their targets. Is it worth the points? Alternatively, couldn't you just drop your troops near an enemy squad and light them up with Rapid Fire? If you're going to have a heavy weapon with drop troops, I'd suggest that it be a missile launcher, that way you can use it against armour, but if you don't need to, there's still the anti-infantry option.
With your Storm Troopers, how many men are you taking? It might be prudent to have less men if you think that you might be gambling away your men. If you have full confidence, why not also give your Vet Sergeant a Plasma Pistol to add to the two Plasma Guns, and as Brookman said, give him a Melta bomb.
As per the Refractor field, my experience is that it's a waste unless you don't take it, in which case you need it. So it's just a lose-lose, no matter what you do. xp As per Bionics, I'm simply unlucky with it. It's nice when you have your 50-125 point model get back up and continue fighting, but more often that not, he's just going to stay dead, and five points were wasted. I'm pessimestic to them, but note that I still use them. I like protecting my characters.
And Iron Discipline does apply over the Vox, just not the Trademark Items or Standards.
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:49 am
@Xenos: just remember that Grenadiers cannot deep strike, as they do not count as Guard infantry, even when you take Drop Troops as your regimental organization.
@Kento, if you are really bent on putting a more Inquisitorial mark on your army, add in an inquisitor from either the Ordo Malleus or the Ordo Hereticus, minus the retinue. At a base cost of 20 points it is a cheap and fluffy addition and as independent character can join deep striking squads. The Daemon hunter inquisitor is perfect for combat tooling, while the Witch hunter inquisitor can be tooled towards leadership boosts.
Bionics are an iffy thing, but I like them. I use them on minor characters with a suitable bionic arm or eye, just for the sake of having some tough as nails bad asses in the army.
Refractors are not worth the cost really, unless you really want it for fluff and background reasons, then I can only say, go for it. I prefer flavour over min-maxing and building lists strictly for winning.
Searchlights are cheap and something worth taking. My own Elysian drop sentinel comes with that as a standard, though mainly because the models come with them as a standard, I'm a stickler for WYSIWYG.
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:33 am
Xenos: Im honestly thinking of dropping the storm troopers, they were a redundancy that i dont need. I agree on plasma guns normally, but I love the way they look, and that on top of how badass kasrkin models look.....mmmmm
What you said about heavy weapons is exactly why I left them out of the infantry and put in a flamer. That and it takes two gaurd to run a heavy, wheeras Im used to only losing one rapid fire guy to using a marine heavy weapon. So Ill probably continue to leave them out.
Ill probably drop the refractor as well. And if Iron Discipline works over the vox, than count me in.
Brookman: Well, I havent really picked out an inquisitor yet, as i dnt have either codex. If I do though, Ill probably go witch hunters, as they seem to have more anti psyker stuff, and for ordo xenos Ill be encountering psykers with eldar seers, tyranid synapse critters, and ork wyrdboys.
Anyways, I might look into that instead, just have to get the rules. Ill probably make use of bionics then, and perhaps a medallion crimson, maybe.
And eyah, searchlights have never done me wrong, and Ive never been sitting around saying "damn i wish I used that 1 point on the searchlight for so and so instead!".
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