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Rebecca1000

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:23 pm


marysservant
Rebecca1000
*looks at marrysservant's really long post*

Oh! That! eek Yeah, I looked at those scriptures...but, does anyone notice that those scriptures in the "extra" books/verses seem to be repeats to the books/verses that are already in the (Protestant) Bible?

Actually, the verses in the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals were written BEFORE the New Testament so yeah...
Could you back that up with a source, please?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:25 pm


marysservant
Rebecca1000
marysservant
Regarding what Collun said about the Pope...
GNT Matthew 16:15-19

"What about you?" he asked them, "Who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
"Good for you, Simon son of John (Bar-Jonah)!" answered Jesus. "For this truth did NOT come to you from any human being [or, "was not revealed to you by man"], but it was given to you directly by my Father in Heaven. And so I tell you, Peter: you ARE a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven; what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven."


Matthew 16 22-23 (after Jesus predicted his death and resurrection)

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "God forbid it, Lord!" he said. "That must never happen to you!"
Jesus turned around and said to Peter, "Get away from me Satan! You are an obstacle in my way, because these thoughts of yours DON''T come from God, but from human nature [or "from man"]."


These verses state that Peter was inspired to believe that Jesus was in fact the Messiah, the Son of God, yet later, he was tricked by his human nature so that he rebuked Jesus. Therefore, Catholics DO believe that the Pope CAN err. But, when inspired by the Holy Spirit, he speaks truth in regards to faith and morals.
Would that mean, maybe, that to Catholics, the Pope could have more of the Holy Spirit in him than others?

I know that sounds crazy, but that''s almost how it sounds to me....

No... but the Bible said that the Holy Spirit spoke the truth through Peter, well, it REVEALED the truth to him (a better way of saying it).
Okay...so, you''re saying that happens again and again through all the other popes after Peter?

Rebecca1000


marysservant

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:30 pm


Rebecca1000
marysservant
Rebecca1000
*looks at marrysservant's really long post*

Oh! That! eek Yeah, I looked at those scriptures...but, does anyone notice that those scriptures in the "extra" books/verses seem to be repeats to the books/verses that are already in the (Protestant) Bible?

Actually, the verses in the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals were written BEFORE the New Testament so yeah...
Could you back that up with a source, please?

Can't find a source... yet. But they were in existance well before the birth of our Savior, I am sure I do not need to prove this. It is fact, this matter itself isn't disagreed upon (protestants 'believe [know]' that they were written before the New Testament). In fact, someone prove me if I'm wrong, but the JEWISH holiday of Chanukah (sorry if I spelled that wrong) is from the one of the books of Maccabees isn't it?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:39 pm


A little something that bothered me from the thread that was recently locked:

Quote:
Actually, it does mention Jesus's brothers, but if anyone knew about the history, they would know two things. 1. there was not a word for cousins in the language Jesus spoke so any family member of the same generation was called a brother.


Do you mean ancient Greek, one of the most precise languages that's ever existed?

amo --> phileo, eros, agape

Surely, if Latin has a noun and an adjective for cousin, Greek at least has one of those.

If your tiff's with Aramaic, that's beyond my knowledge. sweatdrop

Gambol

Shy Sex Symbol


Scripps

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:03 pm


marysservant
Rebecca1000
marysservant
Rebecca1000
*looks at marrysservant's really long post*

Oh! That! eek Yeah, I looked at those scriptures...but, does anyone notice that those scriptures in the "extra" books/verses seem to be repeats to the books/verses that are already in the (Protestant) Bible?

Actually, the verses in the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals were written BEFORE the New Testament so yeah...
Could you back that up with a source, please?

Can't find a source... yet. But they were in existance well before the birth of our Savior, I am sure I do not need to prove this. It is fact, this matter itself isn't disagreed upon (protestants 'believe [know]' that they were written before the New Testament). In fact, someone prove me if I'm wrong, but the JEWISH holiday of Chanukah (sorry if I spelled that wrong) is from the one of the books of Maccabees isn't it?
Maccabees took place somewhere a few hundres years before Jesus was born. (I want to say 300 years, but for some reason 132 B.C. is sticking in my head.) This is the time when the Greeks invaded the Second Temple and Judas Maccabeus drove them out.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:18 pm


Gambol
A little something that bothered me from the thread that was recently locked:

Quote:
Actually, it does mention Jesus's brothers, but if anyone knew about the history, they would know two things. 1. there was not a word for cousins in the language Jesus spoke so any family member of the same generation was called a brother.


Do you mean ancient Greek, one of the most precise languages that's ever existed?

amo --> phileo, eros, agape

Surely, if Latin has a noun and an adjective for cousin, Greek at least has one of those.

If your tiff's with Aramaic, that's beyond my knowledge. sweatdrop
It wouldn't matter what Jesus spoke at the time, though, but what the Gospel writer wrote in. Matthew, however, is disputed. Some say Greek, others Hebrew.
Wikipedia: The Gospel of Matthew
That link should help you determine. I'm not educated enough to make my own decision, but I will say that Matthew definitely knew Greek, being a tax collector. Though, I cant see a reason for the use of "brother" erroneously unless Jesus either had brothers, or he wrote it in a language lacking in sufficient vocabulary.

Scripps


marysservant

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:53 pm


Gambol
A little something that bothered me from the thread that was recently locked:

Quote:
Actually, it does mention Jesus's brothers, but if anyone knew about the history, they would know two things. 1. there was not a word for cousins in the language Jesus spoke so any family member of the same generation was called a brother.


Do you mean ancient Greek, one of the most precise languages that's ever existed?

amo --> phileo, eros, agape

Surely, if Latin has a noun and an adjective for cousin, Greek at least has one of those.

If your tiff's with Aramaic, that's beyond my knowledge. sweatdrop

I think it was aramiac *ponders*
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:40 pm


marysservant
I think it was aramiac *ponders*
See my previous post.

Scripps


Eteponge

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:57 pm


NewAgeLink
W00t! ... hm, are Mormons pagan? razz

(J/k; I seriously don't know much of anything about them except I've heard that they believe you can become a god, still subservient to Jesus/God, but a god nonetheless.)

Theosis (Deification) is not a "Mormon Doctrine" it is an Early Christian Doctrine.

The Early Christian Doctrine of Theosis (Deification):

Interestingly, Early Christianity, the Gnostic Christians, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, various Christian Saints and Christian Mystics, and even several Word Preachers (Including Kenneth Copeland) believe in the Doctrine of Theosis (Deification). Here is some information I've compiled on this subject from various online sources:

[Begin Quotes]

Jesus Christ in John 10:34-36 was quoting Psalm 82:6: "Ye are gods; and all of you children of the most High." In refution to the Pharisee's accusation that He was a blasphemer for calling himself the Son of God, when we are all children of God, Sons and Daughters of the Most High:

"Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Also of note is that in the Gospel of John, God is refered to as HO THEOS (The God) and we are refered to as THEOI (gods), Images of the Prototype.

To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19). Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23). Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-1 cool . He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippian 2:5,6). Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4). Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21).

1. To become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, being glorified together (Romans 8:14-1 cool

2. As sons (and daughters) of God, to inherit all things that the Father has (Revelation 21:7)

3. To become one with Christ, as Christ is one with the Father (John 17:20-23)

4. To sit with Christ on His throne (Rev. 3:21)

5. To receive a glorified, immortal body like the body that Christ has (Philip. 3:21)

6. To partake of the divine nature and be given all things pertaining to life and godliness, receiving glory (2 Peter 1:3-4)

7. To be made - in some way - like Christ when He returns (1 John 3:2)

8. To be made kings and priests unto God and his Father (Rev. 1:6) As children of God, to become partakers of his holiness (Heb. 12:9-10)

9. To be exalted by God (1 Peter 5:6)

10. To become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect (Matt. 5:4 cool

Theosis (Deification) is an important doctrine of Early Christianity...

Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology from the article titled "Deification":

Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in the image and likeness of God'.... It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g., Ps. 82 (81).6; II Peter 1.4) and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8:9-17; Gal. 4:5-7) and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21-23). The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, 'if the Word has been made man, it is so men may be made gods' (Adv. Haer V, Pref.), and become the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century St Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons 'by participation' (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: 'Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfillment of all times and ages',... and St Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, 'He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face.'...

Finally, it should be noted that deification does not mean absorption into God, since the deified creature remains itself and distinct. It is the whole human being, body and soul, who is transfigured in the Spirit into the likeness of the divine nature, and deification is the goal of every Christian.

(Symeon Lash, "Deification," The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, ed. Alan Richardson and John Bowden, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1983, pp. 147-148.)

Eastern Orthodoxy still retains much of the original Christian doctrine of theosis or deification. Here's a quote from Orthodox writer, Dr. Seth Farber ("The Reign of Augustine," The Christian Activist: A Journal of Orthodox Opinion, Vol. 13, Winter/Spring 1999, pp. 40-45,56):

Eastern Christian theology, Orthodoxy, has not been marred by the misanthropic premises that have been characteristic of Western Christian theology, Roman Catholic and Protestant, for centuries [e.g., the concept that infants are already great sinners worthy of damnation, that man is totally depraved, etc.] From the early Greek fathers to modern Orthodox theologians, one dominant theme has sounded again and again: the purpose of the Incarnation was to make it possible for human beings to be reunited with God, to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). As St. Athanasius put it, "He (the Son of God) became man, that we might become God."

Early Church Fathers:

"If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods." [Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk. 5, pref.]

"Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality." [Irenaeus, Against Heresies,4.38. Cp. 4.11] [(2): "But man receives progression and increase towards God. For God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress toward God."]

Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." [Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1]

"If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.... His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.'" [Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 See also Clement, Stromateis, 23]

Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men were 'made like God, free from suffering and death,' and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest. [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124]

Saint Athanasius - that tireless foe of heresy after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named - also stated his belief in deification: "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." [Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.34]

On another occasion Athanasius stated, "He became man that we might be made divine" [Athanasius, De Inc., 54]

Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." [Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2]

[End Quotes]
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:17 pm


Kutsuke
Actually I do have the right to say Catholics aren't Christians (1st ammendment).

On a different note, I'm not here to bash catholics, I'm here to expose them. They have nothing to hide, but if they try to hide it, then maybe they do. Anyway, my first point is that being catholic doesn't make a person less of a human or more of a Christian.

Second, I would like to express my lack of belief that Catholocism is Christian, especially that "Christians" today are barely Christian.

What I believe is that Catholics are members of satans army, and that I would love it if they could prove me wrong, but they haven't.

Just actions do not require justification.

Let me translate what Kutsuke is actually saying...

"Catholics, who compiled the Bible I use (Minus the books removed over a thousand years later by that oh so Godly man Martin Luther) and existed well over a thousand years before the Reformation and Protestantism, interpreted the Bible differently and more anciently than my own modern and purely subjective interpretation of Scripture. Therefore they, and all Christians who were Catholic during the first thousand or so years of Christianity before the Reformation and Protestantism, who do not adhere to our modern and purely subjective interpretations of Scripture, are somehow Non-Christians. Our modern denominations that are over 1500 years removed from the Early Christian Faith with no ties with it, are somehow more correct than theirs."

Kutsuke
Well, if I were satan I would make a church, fill it with actions and beliefs that were not Christian, call them Christian, have a leader elected to power over all the members of the religion and have them secretly worship me instead of God. Catholocism would be my greatest creation.

"Watch me stir up unintellegible drivel in the form of a wild and totally unsupportable Jack Chick brand conspiracy theory, and lose any kind of credibility I may have previously had."

Kutsuke
The Bible vs the Catholic Doctrine

"My purely subjective modern protestant interpretation of Scripture versus your much older purely subjective ancient catholic interpretation of Scripture."

Eteponge


Eteponge

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:24 pm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis - More on The Early Christian Doctrine of Theosis (Deification)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm#I - The Roman Catholic Church also believes in Theosis (Deification)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:31 pm


Perhaps if I had intupureted the Bible 1500 years ago, I wouldn't doubt the "Christianity" of Catholocism. :p

seriously though, if you have real information to teach me in lesson form, I'm all about knowing the truth. Unfortunately with each bash on me, I begin to believe that the probability of non-Christian Catholocism improves.

Kutsuke


Eteponge

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:45 pm


Kutsuke
Perhaps if I had intupureted the Bible 1500 years ago, I wouldn't doubt the "Christianity" of Catholocism. :p

seriously though, if you have real information to teach me in lesson form, I'm all about knowing the truth. Unfortunately with each bash on me, I begin to believe that the probability of non-Christian Catholocism improves.

You have presented ZERO valid information for your side of Catholicism being Non-Christian. All throughout this thread, although I am not Roman Catholic myself, I have defended it's Christianity with actual substance.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:30 am


Hey, guys! Are we still on the topic of the Apocrypha / deuterocanonicals???

I was gonna bring in another subject on Catholicism, but I can wait if we're not done yet... neutral

Rebecca1000


Kutsuke

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:28 pm


Eteponge
Kutsuke
Perhaps if I had intupureted the Bible 1500 years ago, I wouldn't doubt the "Christianity" of Catholocism. :p

seriously though, if you have real information to teach me in lesson form, I'm all about knowing the truth. Unfortunately with each bash on me, I begin to believe that the probability of non-Christian Catholocism improves.

You have presented ZERO valid information for your side of Catholicism being Non-Christian. All throughout this thread, although I am not Roman Catholic myself, I have defended it's Christianity with actual substance.


I don't have to present it I'm not here to convice you guys. Rather, I'mhere in hopes that I will be convinced that it is more likely that catholocism is Christian than pagan.
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*~Let the Fire Fall ~* A Christian Guild

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