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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:59 pm
Not really that harmful, although in truth R³ is also an abstraction, since the space you live in doesn't go on forever, nor is it really the same in all directions.
And I'm really against the "little bit of information is better than none" idea. Some things don't make sense in pieces, and if you don't have a complete picture, then the most common results are either you assume you have a complete picture or you make up the rest. In either case, what you end up with is often completely different from what the original was, in ways that lead to utter tripe.
For instance, quantum mechanics. People hear about the non-determinism of quantum observation, and because they only hear that you can't predict fully what will happen, they assume this means that anything can happen. They hear that the system is determined only after observation and because they only hear "observation" without any definition of such, they assume that consciousness can affect physics. So we end up with all sorts of mysticism and crap and people trying to justify crackpottery by saying "scientists said so!".
Even if they mean well, it turns to crap eventually. You get a string of "I heard that___" or "I think this means____" and the accumulation of erroneous assumptions and inductions leads to people thinking that the world will end in 2012, or that we live on the back of an extraterrestrial's credit card, or that the Bermuda triangle is a wormhole.
People are stupid, and people are gullible, and people are bad at communicating. I know I'm being unfair to the millions of intelligent people on our planet, but rational, analytical thought is not something that the average human being is good at. What we are good at is taking a little bit of information, making a lot of s**t up and trying to convince ourselves and others that we somehow used the first to get the second; it's how we get through each day with our minds intact and it is not good for any sort of academics.
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:42 pm
Determinism doesn't make sense if you think about it. If you only had the classical picture it would be like saying no one has any free will because everything is already determined.
Also, the thing that I deleted which I was going to post before is - about global warming - what ARE the important parts of the debate?
For me it is, when are we going to start sending people to Mars? Because the Earth has gotten too small for our population. ^^
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:17 pm
Mecill Also, the thing that I deleted which I was going to post before is - about global warming - what ARE the important parts of the debate? I'm sure my wording here could be much improved, but basically: Quote: 1) CO2 is known to absorb and re-radiate energy from sunlight, causing warming. 2) The planet's sensitivity to doubling CO2 levels from pre-Industrial Era times is somewhat over 1 degree Celsius. 3) Concerns over global warming require approximately double this sensitivity to be valid. 4) There is reason to believe feedbacks exist which could increase the planet's sensitivity to CO2 emissions enough to support the concerns. Points one, two and three are fairly basic. The fourth point is the only point on which there seems to be any scientific disagreement. Things like paleoclimatology are not necessary to "prove" global warming. They are just useful issues to study.
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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:06 pm
Thanks. I would say, in order to make an educated decision they should show people how the 3rd point is arrived at. The first two are easier to see from direct evidence. Though ideally they should show how all of them are arrived at.
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:24 pm
The first point is obvious, even with just a cartoon image explaining the greenhouse effect. The only argument I have ever seen offered against this point is, "But CO2 only makes up a tiny percent of the atmosphere!" While it is an understandable point of confusion, it in no way contradicts anything. Most people understand small amounts of something can have large effects.
The second point is a bit harder to explain, in that it requires actual calculations. Even so, a reasonable estimate can be reached from a single equation, meaning it is easy enough to explain to people.
Once you get to the third point, you can't give a step-by-step guide to the average person. I never understood why there was such focus on a single value anyway, as each impact of global warming would likely be a problem at different sensitivities. On the technical level, I would like to see more work done showing how much warming will cause which effects to what extent.
In any event, the final point is the one I think is probably the most important. We know there are feedbacks, both positive and negative. Most known feedbacks are defined well defined in direction, if not actual strength. However, the effect of clouds is not well defined. There is even dispute as to whether this would be a positive or negative feedback. Given that cloud cover is one of the strongest climatic feedbacks, I think it deserves much more focus.
On a personal note, I would like to see a lot more funding and focus for global warming. Currently the problem is being studied in the ad hoc approach normal to science. I would like to see a much more organized attempt at studying the problem, similar to what one would expect from an engineering report (say, for building a bridge).
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:43 pm
So, I have a lot of experience watching presentations for physics and astronomy because I go to one every week. (I started doing this to try to decide what field to go into because I was too confused to go ask someone if I could start doing research with them, but anyway...) At first I had no idea what they were talking about because I had no technical background but I appreciated being able to attend anyway, learned from the introductions, and just the different ways they presented info.
If you did a scientific presentation geared toward the educated working class (say business people, engineers, health professionals) a lot of those people know calculus, but not much about earth science. So you could still talk to them on a technical level if you did some slides of the basics at the beginning and reinforced the important points throughout the presentation.
For people who haven't had much science, say people without a college education, they can still learn from a detailed presentation. Using graphs and visual aids is good, along with lists of the important facts. Also, I think it's important to keep a serious tone. Maybe mix in some jokes or funny slides once in a while to keep people awake, show scientists are human too, but overall it's a serious topic and that needs to be understood throughout the presentation.
If both types of presentations were public - like broadcast online and the news networks encouraged people to visit them, I think you'll reach some percentage of the average audience anyway. A lot of people are mad about cover-ups and the whole e-mail controversy. I don't really care about that, but if people are curious and it's easy to find the info they'll learn the real facts rather than the cheap stuff.
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:59 pm
Theory versus reality: I think I finally understand the distinction. I used to understand this but it got blurred when I started trying to understand theoretical physics. Theory isn't necessarily "perfect." Neither is reality. They just follow different rules. They are both beautiful in their own way. 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:15 pm
Quote: if people are curious and it's easy to find the info they'll learn the real facts rather than the cheap stuff. This reminds me of an important issue. If you want to learn about a field of science, what do you do? Personally, my first step would be to read the Wikipedia article on it. After that, if I am interested I could find textbooks or other material. For climate science, what can you do? Going to Wikipedia gets you some information, but I hesitate to recommend it. A climate scientist named William M. Connolly is an administrator on the site, and in the past I have seen him be quite biased in editing global warming articles. I haven't payed much attention this last year or so, so things may have improved. Assuming Wikipedia is good, where does one go for information next? I am honestly at a loss on this question. For example, I would love to see a detailed explanation of how the various climatic forcings are calculated, but it seems none exists.
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:41 pm
Today's in-class "homework" problem for Math 622:
A train leaves Seattle going at 50 mph. At the same time, a train leaves Philadelphia going at 60 mph. What's the cohomology of a line bundle on CPⁿ?
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:45 pm
My first thought upon reading that question was, "Do trains actually leave Seattle and Philadelphia?"
I wonder what that says about me.
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:57 pm
zz1000zz Assuming Wikipedia is good, where does one go for information next? I am honestly at a loss on this question. For example, I would love to see a detailed explanation of how the various climatic forcings are calculated, but it seems none exists. For that specifically I would go directly to the papers, which should explain it in detail if they are good papers. Look in an academic database that stores climate/earth science/atmospheric science info. You could also go to the library and look for any textbooks on the subject which may exist.
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:22 pm
Mecill For that specifically I would go directly to the papers, which should explain it in detail if they are good papers. Look in an academic database that stores climate/earth science/atmospheric science info. You could also go to the library and look for any textbooks on the subject which may exist. There is no literature which calculates Earth's sensitivity to CO2 from first principles. The task is too large for individual papers, and there is no large organized body for research on climate change.
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:17 pm
Then try to piece it together. Look at some papers which did climate surveys or collected relevant data, save them to your hard drive for reference or take notes on their methodologies. Look up the properties of CO2, and other relevant concepts mentioned in the papers, maybe take some notes on the things that are unfamiliar, and think about what you would do if you were analyzing the data yourself. You might not be able to get the whole picture but you can learn more about it that way.
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:23 pm
Layra-chan Today's in-class "homework" problem for Math 622: A train leaves Seattle going at 50 mph. At the same time, a train leaves Philadelphia going at 60 mph. What's the cohomology of a line bundle on CPⁿ? My first reaction was to wiki cohomology, and from there to abelian groups. Then I gave up. Maybe some other day...
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