Question On Salvation

[Guardian Tenshi]

I don't know the exact verse, but there is a verse that says this: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." But, there is also a verse that says, "No man cometh unto the Father (goes to heaven) but by me [Jesus]." So that means that if you do not ask Jesus to come into your heart and to forgive you of your sins, then you will not go to heaven. That's what the Bible says.

 

[Archon Logos]

We must be careful here to state what is said in Scripture. Please take note of what Paul said in Romans 3:27-28, "Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. [28] For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

How do we reconcile that to what is stated in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." The point James is making is not the point that Paul made in Romans. James is emphasizing that true saving faith is always accompanied by works. He is not saying that those works contribute to our salvation.

So in regard to the orginal question. If an individual lives a life of faith that is evidenced by good works, we should be reasonably confident that when he dies that he will go to heaven. However, if an individual simply made a profession in life that he was a Christian but there are no good works to justify that profession, we cannot be confident that after death he will go to heaven.  

[mazuac]

As long as you beleive Jesus is the Savior, and the mediator between you and God, then you will go to heaven. Of course, you MUST pray for forgiveness, but I mean, most likely most christians who die aren't in the middle of prayer when the die, right? Well, juts my opinion.  

[ElenaMason]

Guardian Tenshi

"No man cometh unto the Father (goes to heaven) but by me [Jesus]." So that means that if you do not ask Jesus to come into your heart and to forgive you of your sins, then you will not go to heaven. That's what the Bible says.

*sighs* No, thats NOT what the verse means at all. That verse says nothing about asking god into your heart, its saying what it literally states. You can NOT come unto the father, but BY me. In other words, you can not choose your own salvation. ONLY God can do that. Man can not save himself let alone other men.

That verse btw, is John 6:65. Try reading John 6:44-65

Also this verse:

Romans 8:28-30 (and we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.)

And there are many more if you wish me to post them. No man has free will or free choice of salvation.  

[Pseudo-Onkelos]

SaintChaos

*sighs* No, thats NOT what the verse means at all. That verse says nothing about asking god into your heart, its saying what it literally states. You can NOT come unto the father, but BY me. In other words, you can not choose your own salvation. ONLY God can do that. Man can not save himself let alone other men.

The Greek for the word "by" is δι. It can also be translated, "through," as rendered in the NIV. Either works, I suppose. Can you produce some work by reputable Biblical expositors who have understood this verse in this manner, even those of Reformed thought?  

[ElenaMason]

John Calvin

SaintChaos

*sighs* No, thats NOT what the verse means at all. That verse says nothing about asking god into your heart, its saying what it literally states. You can NOT come unto the father, but BY me. In other words, you can not choose your own salvation. ONLY God can do that. Man can not save himself let alone other men.

The Greek for the word "by" is δι. It can also be translated, "through," as rendered in the NIV. Either works, I suppose. Can you produce some work by reputable Biblical expositors who have understood this verse in this manner, even those of Reformed thought?

sure no problem.

Bible Knowledge Commentary by Walvoord Zuck

"Jesus taught that divine enablement was necessary for people to come to faith (v.44). The apostasy here (v.66) should not be surprising. believers who remain with jesus evidence the Father's secret work. the unbelieving crowds are evidence that "the flesh counts for nothing" (vs.63)."

The funniest thing is, the verse he quote is from a different version of the bible. I use the most accurate known version, being the NASB, but it basically says the same thing.

But if one just simply looks at the grammer of the sentence, it says it clearly with no hidden meaning that is meant to be found.

(NASB) And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

GRANTED....not a choice, granted. We can not go to god, unless he lets us.

and again i quote:

Quote:

Romans 8:28-30 and we know that God cuases all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And whome He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I can post more if you wish.  

[Pseudo-Onkelos]

SaintChaos

sure no problem.

Bible Knowledge Commentary by Walvoord Zuck

"Jesus taught that divine enablement was necessary for people to come to faith (v.44). The apostasy here (v.66) should not be surprising. believers who remain with jesus evidence the Father's secret work. the unbelieving crowds are evidence that "the flesh counts for nothing" (vs.63)."

The funniest thing is, the verse he quote is from a different version of the bible. I use the most accurate known version, being the NASB, but it basically says the same thing.

But if one just simply looks at the grammer of the sentence, it says it clearly with no hidden meaning that is meant to be found.

(NASB) And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

I wasn't asking for a commentary on John 6:44. I was asking for a commentary on John 14:6.

SaintChaos

I can post more if you wish.

No thank you. What you offered is sufficient. I was asking only for a commentary on John 14:6 where you understood it to be about divine election.  

[Mein Kulturkampf]

SaintChaos

Guardian Tenshi

"No man cometh unto the Father (goes to heaven) but by me [Jesus]." So that means that if you do not ask Jesus to come into your heart and to forgive you of your sins, then you will not go to heaven. That's what the Bible says.

*sighs* No, thats NOT what the verse means at all. That verse says nothing about asking god into your heart, its saying what it literally states. You can NOT come unto the father, but BY me. In other words, you can not choose your own salvation. ONLY God can do that. Man can not save himself let alone other men.

That verse btw, is John 6:65. Try reading John 6:44-65

Also this verse:

Romans 8:28-30 (and we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.)

And there are many more if you wish me to post them. No man has free will or free choice of salvation.

Romans 8:28-30 refers to those the Lord has brought to be prophets.  

[ElenaMason]

John Calvin

SaintChaos

sure no problem.

Bible Knowledge Commentary by Walvoord Zuck

"Jesus taught that divine enablement was necessary for people to come to faith (v.44). The apostasy here (v.66) should not be surprising. believers who remain with jesus evidence the Father's secret work. the unbelieving crowds are evidence that "the flesh counts for nothing" (vs.63)."

The funniest thing is, the verse he quote is from a different version of the bible. I use the most accurate known version, being the NASB, but it basically says the same thing.

But if one just simply looks at the grammer of the sentence, it says it clearly with no hidden meaning that is meant to be found.

(NASB) And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

I wasn't asking for a commentary on John 6:44. I was asking for a commentary on John 14:6.

SaintChaos

I can post more if you wish.

No thank you. What you offered is sufficient. I was asking only for a commentary on John 14:6 where you understood it to be about divine election.

14:6? oops my bad. *goes to look* ah...well its basically a repeat of what John 6:65 is. And the commentary quotes beautifully and much more defined on the same meaning of such a verse.

Quote:

Jesus' words, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life, are the sixth of Jesus' seven "I am" statements in the Gospel of John. Jesus is the "Way" because He is the "truth" and the "Life". As the Father is Truth and Life, Jesus is the embodiment of God so people can come to the Father. By His words, no one comes to the Father except through Me, Jesus stressed that salvation, contrary to what many people think, is not obtainable through many ways. Only one Way exists. Jesus is the only access to the Father because He is the only One from the Father.

 

[ElenaMason]

Mein Kulturkampf

SaintChaos

Guardian Tenshi

"No man cometh unto the Father (goes to heaven) but by me [Jesus]." So that means that if you do not ask Jesus to come into your heart and to forgive you of your sins, then you will not go to heaven. That's what the Bible says.

*sighs* No, thats NOT what the verse means at all. That verse says nothing about asking god into your heart, its saying what it literally states. You can NOT come unto the father, but BY me. In other words, you can not choose your own salvation. ONLY God can do that. Man can not save himself let alone other men.

That verse btw, is John 6:65. Try reading John 6:44-65

Also this verse:

Romans 8:28-30 (and we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.)

And there are many more if you wish me to post them. No man has free will or free choice of salvation.

Romans 8:28-30 refers to those the Lord has brought to be prophets.

Incorrect. That verse is referring to ALL believers, all whom he has chosen.  

[Pseudo-Onkelos]

SaintChaos

14:6? oops my bad. *goes to look* ah...well its basically a repeat of what John 6:65 is. And the commentary quotes beautifully and much more defined on the same meaning of such a verse.

Quote:

Jesus' words, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life, are the sixth of Jesus' seven "I am" statements in the Gospel of John. Jesus is the "Way" because He is the "truth" and the "Life". As the Father is Truth and Life, Jesus is the embodiment of God so people can come to the Father. By His words, no one comes to the Father except through Me, Jesus stressed that salvation, contrary to what many people think, is not obtainable through many ways. Only one Way exists. Jesus is the only access to the Father because He is the only One from the Father.

All right. This, however, does not carry any soteriological commentary in a Calvinistic view. What is simply being stated is that Jesus is the only way to salvation. It does not say, as stated in John 6:44, that no one can come to Him, except by the Father.  

[ElenaMason]

John Calvin

SaintChaos

14:6? oops my bad. *goes to look* ah...well its basically a repeat of what John 6:65 is. And the commentary quotes beautifully and much more defined on the same meaning of such a verse.

Quote:

Jesus' words, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life, are the sixth of Jesus' seven "I am" statements in the Gospel of John. Jesus is the "Way" because He is the "truth" and the "Life". As the Father is Truth and Life, Jesus is the embodiment of God so people can come to the Father. By His words, no one comes to the Father except through Me, Jesus stressed that salvation, contrary to what many people think, is not obtainable through many ways. Only one Way exists. Jesus is the only access to the Father because He is the only One from the Father.

All right. This, however, does not carry any soteriological commentary in a Calvinistic view. What is simply being stated is that Jesus is the only way to salvation. It does not say, as stated in John 6:44, that no one can come to Him, except by the Father.

Calvinist? I'm not a Calvinist. Secondly, both verses ARE a repeat of each other, BOTH saying the exact same thing.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 6;65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

They are both the exact same thing. No one should even need a commentary to see whats right on the page. However, the one thing I truly love about my commentaries is they voice the beliefs of the bible in a much better way than I usually can. But the verses are what they are. You can not choose your own salvation and free will is merely a fantasy.  

[Pseudo-Onkelos]

SaintChaos

Calvinist? I'm not a Calvinist.

So be it. I'll call you a monergist, then.

SaintChaos

Secondly, both verses ARE a repeat of each other, BOTH saying the exact same thing.

No, they do not.

SaintChaos

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 6;65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

The first says that no one can come to the Father except by the Son. If you do not have the Son, you do not have the Father. The first one does not say that there is any granting necessary, nor any monergistic act. The second one says that it is by the Father that one comes to the Son. The former does not say this.

SaintChaos

No one should even need a commentary to see whats right on the page.

All right. If that's how you wish to take this, let us compare John 6:44 and 12:32. The former says that no one can come to the Son, unless the Father draws Him to Him. In the latter, Jesus says that when He is raised up, He will draw all men to Him. That sounds like something a universalist would say. We don't need a commentary, though. The words are very clear.

SaintChaos

You can not choose your own salvation and free will is merely a fantasy.

If free will is merely a fantasy, as you say, then we are no longer responsible for our actions. In fact, this would ascribe God as the author of sin, since He Himself is the only One who would actually have any will whatever.  

[ElenaMason]

John Calvin

So be it. I'll call you a monergist, then.

ty. I'd be a Calvinist if it weren't for the fact that they believe that Jesus dieing on the cross was only for his chosen, which is incorrect. Jesus sent his one and only son "for the world"....not his chosen.

John Calvin

The first says that no one can come to the Father except by the Son. If you do not have the Son, you do not have the Father. The first one does not say that there is any granting necessary, nor any monergistic act. The second one says that it is by the Father that one comes to the Son. The former does not say this.

*sighs* It doesn't need to say "granted".....no one can come to the father except through me.....in other words, jesus has to ALLOW you or aka GRANT you access before you can come to the father. They ARE saying the same thing.

But if you still must try to refute, then lets agree to disagree.

John Calvin

All right. If that's how you wish to take this, let us compare John 6:44 and 12:32. The former says that no one can come to the Son, unless the Father draws Him to Him. In the latter, Jesus says that when He is raised up, He will draw all men to Him. That sounds like something a universalist would say. We don't need a commentary, though. The words are very clear.

Let me reiterate my statement. SOME quotes in the bible, shouldn't need interpretation. All the 10 commandments is a great example for that. Thou Shall Not Steal.....is pretty plain in simple don't you agree? Hence, it shouldn't need a commentary or some scholar to try to interpret what it means. Thou Shall Not Steal means you shouldn't steal

Regarding the verse you posted:

Quote:

Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to himself. He did not mean everybody will be saved for He made it clear that some will be lost (John 5:28-29). If the drawing by the Son is the same as that of the Father (6:44), it means He will draw indiscriminately. Those saved will include not only Jews, but also those from every tribe, language, people, and nation (Rev. 5:9; cf. John 10:16; 11:52).

John Calvin

If free will is merely a fantasy, as you say, then we are no longer responsible for our actions. In fact, this would ascribe God as the author of sin, since He Himself is the only One who would actually have any will whatever.

Just because we don't have "free" will doesn't mean we are not responsible for our actions. We are burdened by the fault of sin, enslaving our will to the desires of sin, the desires of the "flesh". I like to call our will "limited" because we don't decide everything INCLUDING where our salvation comes and goes. If you want to get on the subject of "will" than I'll further the conversation on it with scriptures and explanations only if you want me to. I honestly get tired of bringing up the same thing over and over, but if you wish, I will continue on the subject of "will".  

[Pseudo-Onkelos]

SaintChaos

ty. I'd be a Calvinist if it weren't for the fact that they believe that Jesus dieing on the cross was only for his chosen, which is incorrect. Jesus sent his one and only son "for the world"....not his chosen.

God must not have been appeased, since "the world" won't be saved. Of course, you'd have to take that in a limited understanding.

SaintChaos

*sighs* It doesn't need to say "granted".....no one can come to the father except through me.....in other words, jesus has to ALLOW you or aka GRANT you access before you can come to the father. They ARE saying the same thing.

But if you still must try to refute, then lets agree to disagree.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." That's not difficult to understand. "No one can come to the Father except through me." Since when did "through" mean, "grant"? You may pull up any lexicon of your choice on the word "through."

SaintChaos

Let me reiterate my statement. SOME quotes in the bible, shouldn't need interpretation. All the 10 commandments is a great example for that. Thou Shall Not Steal.....is pretty plain in simple don't you agree? Hence, it shouldn't need a commentary or some scholar to try to interpret what it means. Thou Shall Not Steal means you shouldn't steal

I don't know, considering Philo's work concerning the Decalogue, On the Ten Words, Which Are the Heads of the Law. For example, the saying, "Honor your father and mother" isn't simply for your father and mother alone, but that you should also respect those who are greater in authority than you, such as magistrates and judges.

SaintChaos

Regarding the verse you posted:

Quote:

Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to himself. He did not mean everybody will be saved for He made it clear that some will be lost (John 5:28-29). If the drawing by the Son is the same as that of the Father (6:44), it means He will draw indiscriminately. Those saved will include not only Jews, but also those from every tribe, language, people, and nation (Rev. 5:9; cf. John 10:16; 11:52).

Well, you don't need a commentary on this. Just reading John 12, you'll understand that the Greeks wanted to see the Lord. Therefore, "all [men]" was pointing to "those from every tribe, language, people, and nation." This is what Calvinists agree on, by the way.

SaintChaos

Just because we don't have "free" will doesn't mean we are not responsible for our actions. We are burdened by the fault of sin, enslaving our will to the desires of sin, the desires of the "flesh". I like to call our will "limited" because we don't decide everything INCLUDING where our salvation comes and goes. If you want to get on the subject of "will" than I'll further the conversation on it with scriptures and explanations only if you want me to. I honestly get tired of bringing up the same thing over and over, but if you wish, I will continue on the subject of "will".

So, you admit that the will is at least limited. Well, actually, the will is free, but from what? The sinner who is without God is free from righteousness, but a slave to sin. We do have free will, and God has preordained all things. These are Biblical truths that cannot be separated.