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 Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:20 pm
uryu ishida I'll be done debating with one final questoin and posting a link. Why? Why do you not like guns? http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.2/GunFacts4-2-Screen.pdf If ou don;t have Adobe Reader, I suggest you get it. It's an important program for any computer. Also, I'll leave oyu with a correction. To the "no accidents" comment above, I will apologize for being rash. There is one specific brand of handguns that have a bad habit of accidentally discharging. Glock. The design is poor and the only real safety is the trigger. Newer models have safeties in the back of the grip, but they haven't helped all that much. I can account for poor design becasue I got to handle a Glock 26. The handle isn;t very comfortable for even a smal person to hold, and the slide is uncomfortable close to "biting" the shooters hand (during recoil, nicking the hand with the slide). Honestly, guns have a lot of power. The power can be used for good, but also, more frequently, for bad. If they were eliminated from the world, then, forgive the cliche, the world would be a happier place. ------- I have read most of your link, found a few debatable points (Fox is a Republican news station, therefore is slightly biased towards lessened gun control), was impressed by the amount of cited facts they had, and wondered who sponsored the site. But all in all, it seemed trustworthy.
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:24 pm
I;m not debating this, just making a quick correction.
Read all the way throgh the link. Then you'll see where I got this statistic.
Guns are used to deter crime once every 13 seconds. Guns are used in crime much, much less.
Now, the "Evil", that will change. Even if there were no guns, there will still be evil. They would just find another way to do it. There was evil in the midevil times, they just used daggers, swords, adn bows. Japan still has crime, through violent crime has stuck to isolated cases and suicide. Muerder (per capita) in japan is only 1 in 100,00. America is 3 in 100'000. BUT, their sucide rate is twenty, while ours is only around 18. Death per capita still rounds out to 21, but it does make a point.
Low violent crime rate is because they enforce all their laws. Even the yakuza(gangsters) of japan have an extermely strict honor system. THe Yakuze were founded on the principles of justice during the times the samurai were rogue, but they evolved into gangsters as time went on. Even they ounish harshly for uneccessary crime and fights. Ususally by forcing the offender to remove several fingers or an ear, dependig on the offence.
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:13 am
you take guns away and evil will be more powerful, example, virginia tech could've been much less violent if everyone had a gun, because then the shooter would've been shot outright instead of getting a bit of a monopoly and killing some 30 odd people. if everyone had a gun these shootings would kill fewer people. columbine, virginia tech, and most hostage situations, if everyone had a gun, and not an itchy trigger finger, the world would be a safer place, or at least less likely to have high death count school killings.
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:04 pm
No. If ALL guns are taken away (including the criminals) then the evil would have to find a different outlet. Yes, I understand that this would be nearly impossible to accomplish. I think a better way of solving this problem would be to help people better understand their capacity for good. We could do this by being better models for kids (and adults too stare ). If people are shown how to use their "good side" (for lack of a better phrase) they are more likely to enable it, and shun their "evil side" (see above note), thereby eliminating a need for guns.
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:04 pm
Let's just say that you find a genie lamp and magically poof away all guns, and you turn all evil people good. Problem solved. But it's not a plausible solution.
I like you already, Nemrith. She made a valid point. If the sane, responsible, and law-abiding citizens carreid a personal protectoin weapon, criminals would soon fear to attack those they believe weak. They would eventually go exctinct.
OFcourse, there's also the deal of "How do you take away the criminal's guns?" THey don;t listen to the law, the yalready carry their weapons illegalyand own them illegaly. There was once a program that gave an XBOX or PC to someone who turned in a gun (any gun). Most of the criminzls would turn in a defective weapon, get the electronics, and trade it off for a better weapon, or they already have one and they keep the electronics. You can get a gun from a drug deaer in a bad part of town for around $20. You could get some ammo for it for $10. Maybe not in my town, but in a lot of the larger cities. Our crime is rather low, and drug crime is almost none. I think we have one dealer, and she doesn't own any weapons at all.
No one NEEDS a gun for evil. Evil doesn't even bring on the need for a weapon. Guns are used for hunting, protectoin, recreation and sport. There is even olympic target shooting. Violence, often, can be included in the genes. In other cases, a result of treatment by the parents and the peers. Vioence isn't caused by weapons. And on that note, the correation between games an violence is minimal.
I own several fine guns, but I adhor violence. Give me a choice between taking to someone and fighting them, I'll take the talking any day. I'll agree that there are sometimes better ways to solve some things with violence. BUT, there are things that can only be solved with violence, such as a mugger or carjacker.
It wouldn't be nearly impossible to take all guns, it WOULD BE. In America alone, there are appox. 100 MILLION gun owners. A lot of my favorite bloggers figure about 20% would turn in their weapons. That still leaves 80 million. And I doubt that every single one of them will go peacefully. And it won;t be a 1:1 ratio, either.
And finally, a note of the Bill of Rights. The BOR does not grant rights. It acknowledges and protects God-Given rights of every human. The law of the land always prevails over the law of man.
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:50 pm
I thought you said that you were finished debating in this one... confused Glad to have you back in any case.
Where is the bill of right reference? I couldn't find any, excluding yours, of course.
I agree, violence isn't caused by guns; they just make it more accesible.
I do agree that the causes of violence (abuse, pyschological, adultery) should be treated before the secondary causes (gun control) are put into place. However, I am not sure how much more can be done in such areas. Abuse - there are shelters set up in several places around most cities, for both women and teens (not sure about men...). Psychological - we could try free health care, so counseling would be free, but I doubt that the citizens of America would be willing to pay the taxes for it. Besides, most people with a mental illness don't believe that they are ill; the only way you can force an adult to have counseling sessions is if they have tried to kill themselves or another person. Even threatening to kill someone doesn't work because it violates their rights. Adultery - people are already told that it is a bad idea. Therefore, trying to remove the immeadiate cause is the next logical plan of action.
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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:39 am
I was bored....Every other guild and RP I am a part of currently are frozen...
Gun Control does cause violence. Take England for example. They have an outright ban of firearms, and recently a ban on large steak knives. Their crime rates have skyrocketed, and that's only when they only allow you to report 5 crimes a year! (Citations: WND.com, thelibertysphere.blogspot.com, see link in above post for more).
That statement about the BoR is a very common ideal on the nternet and by scholars who study the constitution. I almost purchased a copy of the Federalist Papers while I was at the book store today, but I figured I'd save and just read them on the internet.
I thought adultery was illegal in most states! (there are a few states with highway-side whorehouses, legal ones)
Also, guns are used in a fairly low number of crimes, compared to the other various instruments. I was going thorugh the NRA's "American Rifleman" Armed Citizen archives, for my state at least, and I was appaled at the number of knife crimes. And that damn near every article they had on record was agaist someone age 50+.
I stated before, guns don't cause violence. Or else I would have gone mad and shot up something by now. They don;t make violence more accessible. They are simply a peice of metal. A tool, with no power of it's own. A metal stick in the case of a long gun, and an small L-shaped piece of metal in the case of a handgun. The only power is the user's choice of what to do with it.
I might suggest that it is human nature to fight. I don;t have any studies or facts to back it up. That's just my observation. Or opinion. Whichever fits better.
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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:52 pm
thenerdqueen Unloaded guns, I am perfectly fine with - as long as it stays unloaded. Even with the best aim and safety precautions, a loaded gun is an accident waiting to happen. The postscripts. PS. Yes, I'm five feet, eight inch girl. PPS. I live in California. What is a Castle Doctrine? PPPPS. But pacifism takes the most guts - because you know that it's not going to work. That's one of the reasons I admire the idea. self defense is not a test of guts it is defending yourself. simply that, so why would you use a tactic that you know is "not going to work" also a loaded gun is NOT an accident waiting to happen if you are educated, however if you just go out and buy a gun without taking any classes on how to handle a firearm then yes it is an acciden't waiting to happen. FACT: GUNS DO NOT FIRE UNLESS SOMEONE PULLS THE TRIGGER
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Twizted Humanitarian Crew
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Twizted Humanitarian Crew
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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:53 pm
thenerdqueen No. If ALL guns are taken away (including the criminals) then the evil would have to find a different outlet. Yes, I understand that this would be nearly impossible to accomplish. I think a better way of solving this problem would be to help people better understand their capacity for good. We could do this by being better models for kids (and adults too stare ). If people are shown how to use their "good side" (for lack of a better phrase) they are more likely to enable it, and shun their "evil side" (see above note), thereby eliminating a need for guns. the criminals would obtain weapons through something called the black market
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:35 pm
I think I'm going to tackle this in two posts; one for Uryu and one for Jungle. (It makes it easier on the eyes and mind) uryu ishida Gun Control does cause violence. Take England for example. They have an outright ban of firearms, and recently a ban on large steak knives. Their crime rates have skyrocketed, and that's only when they only allow you to report 5 crimes a year! (Citations: WND.com, thelibertysphere.blogspot.com, see link in above post for more). Quote: I stated before, guns don't cause violence. Or else I would have gone mad and shot up something by now. They don;t make violence more accessible. They are simply a peice of metal. A tool, with no power of it's own. A metal stick in the case of a long gun, and an small L-shaped piece of metal in the case of a handgun. The only power is the user's choice of what to do with it. my last post I agree, violence isn't caused by guns. However, it just is easier to comit a crime with a gun, than it is without. Quote: I thought adultery was illegal in most states! (there are a few states with highway-side whorehouses, legal ones) Prostitution is, but adultery? I doubt it. Quote: Also, guns are used in a fairly low number of crimes, compared to the other various instruments. I was going thorugh the NRA's "American Rifleman" Armed Citizen archives, for my state at least, and I was appaled at the number of knife crimes. And that damn near every article they had on record was agaist someone age 50+. So older people need to watch out for knifes. But at least with knifes you can runaway or defend yourself easier. Quote: I might suggest that it is human nature to fight. I don;t have any studies or facts to back it up. That's just my observation. Or opinion. Whichever fits better.[ It is human instinct to want to preserve yourself. This can translate into violence.
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:10 pm
I have a few graphs pulled out, but for your suggestion about guns making crime easier, I'll point you to a selection of pages after I post the graphs that I could pull. It will all be links, because esnips doesn't any way to embed pictures. And photobucket would resize them. Please click on "full/original size" when you open the page. The availibility of guns cause crime (not): http://www.esnips.com/doc/0e9b7b7c-24c4-4abd-9e5e-f2fa36e7a31b/graph1 Gun's (aren't) an accident waiting to happen: http://www.esnips.com/doc/e50574a2-cbcf-475c-b9f4-82d92690809f/facts Guns make crime easier: http://www.esnips.com/doc/abae0836-a38c-449e-a7cd-02fb53ddfa2b/crime And here's the pages regarding crime and guns.: 50-55. I also suggest reading all the way to 58, but that's a personal choice. Here's the link again. http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.2/GunFacts4-2-Screen.pdf thenerdqueen It is human instinct to want to preserve yourself. This can translate into violence. But that doesn't explain why criminals instigate. IF it was preservation, they would be victims instead of criminals. Also, how do you propose that the government gets rid of criminal's guns? It;s already illegal for them to purchase, own, or carry a firearm. THey do anyway.
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:01 pm
Jungle Soldier thenerdqueen PPPPS. But pacifism takes the most guts - because you know that it's not going to work. That's one of the reasons I admire the idea. self defense is not a test of guts it is defending yourself. simply that, so why would you use a tactic that you know is "not going to work" also a loaded gun is NOT an accident waiting to happen if you are educated, however if you just go out and buy a gun without taking any classes on how to handle a firearm then yes it is an acciden't waiting to happen. FACT: GUNS DO NOT FIRE UNLESS SOMEONE PULLS THE TRIGGER But pacifism is a form of self defense. It may not work, for the most part, but it is one of the choices you have. For me, it has to do with being a Christian. In the Bible, it says "turn the other cheek"; I'm trying to. Another reason for my attraction to the idea is that it does take courage to stand there and let someone beat up on you. Sorry, I've heard the horror stories of people cleaning their guns and their guns going off, or the riccocheting guns. I assume that the classes would take care of this for the owner, but what about kids, neighbors, and other poeple? Are they expected to take classes too? "Jungle Soldier" "thenerdqueen" No. If ALL guns are taken away (including the criminals) then the evil would have to find a different outlet. Yes, I understand that this would be nearly impossible to accomplish. I think a better way of solving this problem would be to help people better understand their capacity for good. We could do this by being better models for kids (and adults too ). If people are shown how to use their "good side" (for lack of a better phrase) they are more likely to enable it, and shun their "evil side" (see above note), thereby eliminating a need for guns. the criminals would obtain weapons through something called the black market I am well aware of the function of the black market. This was the reason that I included the parenthesis in that sentence. The intention there was that when I said all guns, I meant all the guns were gone.
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:41 pm
They arexactly that: Horror stories. Not much more. I;ve only heard of a few idiots hurting thmeselves while cleaning a gun. And I haven't heard of any ricochet injuries as of yet. Wait, there is one...He didn't get hurt, but he learned his lesson about shoting a .50 BMG sniper rifle at an un-organized event. He shot at an odd-sha[ed piece of iron, ant an angle, and then it bounced off the ground about 7 meters infront of him. THen it stopped in his earmuffs.
Ballistics: A bullet, at that speed, if it strikes a hard surface (such as steel) head-on, it shatters. We shot at steel targets last month, all day, without a single ricochete. They also shot at one long-distance with a variety of rifles without a ricochete. And one futily tried at long distance with a .45, but you can;t even see the target with pistol sights.
AMCIENT CHINESE WISDOM! UNLOAD YOUR GUN BEFORE CLEANING IT! That is literally step number one in every single manual, personal instructions, and inserts in cleaning kits.
I can;t state the exact passage. But there si a place in the bible where Jesus told one of his apostles to sell the shirt on his back to buy a sword. A sword is the equivilent of a gun in those times. Two or three of the Apostles carried swords.
It takes more courage to end the life of someone else. It;s also rather stupid to not resist when someone is beating you up. All of those politicians saying "comply with the criminal and he won;t hurt you!" have never been attacked, and they also have bofyguards equipped with SMGs or assault rifles. Most criminals will kill you so there isn;t a witness, regardless of whether you fought or not.
And, you don;t need classes to learn how to clean a gun. Just a parent, friend, or a handy-dandy Hoppes deluxe kit, which comes with a detailed manual. You need the kit anyway.
My 5-year-old baby cousin was raised around guns. There is always a loaded gun within reach of my grandfather, and she sometimes sat where he always sits. She may have gotten her hands stck in the VCR multiple times, but she;s never touched his gun. We took her shooting just last year, with a full-sized pellet gun. She can shoot it better than my 11-year-old male cousin. He attempts to hold it wrong, though. She's even handled the .22, without aincident I might add. Simply educate the young about firearms, adn the mystique is gone. They aren;t curious about it becasue they already know about it. They don;t feel the urge to pick it up. I was taught gun safety from my earliest memories. I was forced to read a book about safety and the consequences before I was allowed to handle the rifles. It's pure joy to hear the crisp crack of a .22 and watch the pop cans jump.
Really. If you ever happen to visit E. Tennessee for any reason, I wil teach you and take you down to the range. I will provide the rifle, the ammo and the safety equipment. You provide an open mind and a brimmed hat. (Hot brass going down your goggles isn;t fun. And neither is the sun in your eyes.)
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:54 am
So I assume you are saying that the classes take care of it.
Really? Look it up on biblegateway.com for me please? I'd do it myself, but I am leaving in about 15 min (and haven't finished packing... sweatdrop ).
Jesus told Peter not to fight when the guards came for him in the garden of gethsemane. If his disciples had fought, they could have escaped.
Makes sense to read the manual or to get someone to teach you, but when has anybody listened to sense?
I understand your side of the case. I can even understand why you would want to have guns; most of the information in the link doesn't contradict itself. (page 55) However, I can't endorse the use of guns (for myself) - that would be against my beliefs and way of life.
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:15 pm
Classes take care of safety. I passed my hunter's safety course with flying colors. I guess education count's as classes.
Have fun on your trip. I'll get around to it.
Well, the several hundred thousand active members of my favorite online forum do. And they all live in Tennessee. (gaia is NOT my favorite, but it is the most entertaining.) IF the media would stop telling lies, and politicians giving bad advice, everyone would listen to common sense.
Well, I've just about convinced a Jehova's Witness to get himself a weapon; and, even though he likes guns, fought against getting one at first harder than you. I won't give up!
I do understand, though. I've just taken to the saying "God helps those who help themselves." I'll probably come up with more links later. I'm looking for a certain blog to link...
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