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 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:55 pm
Maze Although, that might, in part, be because of the human need to be touched. It creates seratonine, I believe, which makes us 'happy' and 'content'. I doubt humans are the only ones who create this chemical as a result of that stimulus, though. It's not just seratonine. I'm sure other animals produce it as well. What I'm talking about is the underlying psycological effects of the action. You see, if someone is left without any human contact, but still has a pet of some kind, they can use the seratonine effect as a surrogate of actual human contact. Note that when you play with a cat or dog, when feeling sad that it helps, but not in the same way a person could. It's more psycological than physical.
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:51 pm
terranproby42 Maze Although, that might, in part, be because of the human need to be touched. It creates seratonine, I believe, which makes us 'happy' and 'content'. I doubt humans are the only ones who create this chemical as a result of that stimulus, though. It's not just seratonine. I'm sure other animals produce it as well. What I'm talking about is the underlying psycological effects of the action. You see, if someone is left without any human contact, but still has a pet of some kind, they can use the seratonine effect as a surrogate of actual human contact. Note that when you play with a cat or dog, when feeling sad that it helps, but not in the same way a person could. It's more psycological than physical. I concur...Humans are very social animals. We need someone to acknowledge our existence so we have some reason behind it. Would why matter if there'd be no one else to ask? Interaction is key.
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Socrates in Disguise Captain
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:50 pm
Lots of things to respond to, but I have to do this one. Mechanism ...We've taken over the planet. I think that the archaea and eubacteria would beg to differ. Humans are the fancy froth on the surface compared to these true masters of life. THEY have LONG ago taken over the planet and will be here LONG after we're gone. But yeah, done on that one now. Just to set straight a common misconception about evolution, evolution does NOT progress to 'higher' or 'greater' or 'more advanced' so get that out of your mind as fast as you can. Evolution adapts an organism to its environment. There are many cases of creatures loosing 'advanced' features because they no longer needed them, from eyes to appendanges. As for whoever mentioned our brains being the largest, ours are the largest when you compare brain cavity to total body mass. I've thought about this issue many times, and I'm nearly convinced that the only real difference between humans and non-human animals is our capacity to store information outside of our own brains. Books. Libraries. Computers. If it weren't for these things, our technology would be minimal. Our cranimums certainly can't hold all the information in our libraries. Just somethin' to think about
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:16 am
Starlock Lots of things to respond to, but I have to do this one. Mechanism ...We've taken over the planet. I think that the archaea and eubacteria would beg to differ. Humans are the fancy froth on the surface compared to these true masters of life. THEY have LONG ago taken over the planet and will be here LONG after we're gone. Perhaps I should've specified the way which I meant "taken over". We have purposely made extensive change to the environment in a wide range of locales on the planet and we have a large degree of control over the other species. Control is the key element in a 'takeover'. We have that.
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:37 am
Mechanism And the main differences? Language and agriculture. With these two things in place, progress was inevitable. Have you actually not noticed the noises animals make and how the other animals respond to that?? Agriculture?? Bee??
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:52 am
Starlock As for whoever mentioned our brains being the largest, ours are the largest when you compare brain cavity to total body mass. I've thought about this issue many times, and I'm nearly convinced that the only real difference between humans and non-human animals is our capacity to store information outside of our own brains. Books. Libraries. Computers. If it weren't for these things, our technology would be minimal. Our cranimums certainly can't hold all the information in our libraries.
Another human ability is creativity in the sense that humans mold things out of nothing for purposes that are not entirely pragmatic, such as art and fiction. Sure, beavers 'create' dams and ants 'build' farms, but for means of their own survival. Human beings create for aesthetic pleasure and for the process of creation itself.
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:51 am
Breaking of Dawn on Creativity: you can't assume nonhuman life lacks creativity. We can't see the world as they do. What looks the same to us might be new and unique to them. And, it could easily be debated that human creativity is also driven by survial instincts. New ideas certainly help us survive, and just as well creativity can help attract a mate. Humanity also does not mold things out of nothing. It takes existing materials, ideas, and concepts and rearranges them or transforms them.
Mechanism: and bacteria haven't? They make plenty of changes to the environment to make homes for themselves, as to all other living things to varying degrees. Granted from the human perspective (keyword, from OUR perspective), ours are the most 'drastic' but if you go down to the microscopic level, what we do pales in comparisson. Bacteria also have massive control over other species. As you sit in your chair right now, millions upon millions of bacteria are aiding your digestive system so it functions correctly. Or perhaps you have a cold?
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:44 am
ShadowsTamer Have you actually not noticed the noises animals make and how the other animals respond to that?? , not communication. Humans are able to create new words, and to have a quickly adapting language. You're not being coherent. Starlock Mechanism: and bacteria haven't? They make plenty of changes to the environment to make homes for themselves, as to all other living things to varying degrees. Granted from the human perspective (keyword, from OUR perspective), ours are the most 'drastic' but if you go down to the microscopic level, what we do pales in comparisson. Bacteria also have massive control over other species. As you sit in your chair right now, millions upon millions of bacteria are aiding your digestive system so it functions correctly. Or perhaps you have a cold? Keyword: Control. This implies conscious decisions to perform actions with specific consequences.
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:29 am
Controld doesn't need a conscious decision. It needs only that one is above another. How they got there is irrelivant. Quote: Another human ability is creativity in the sense that humans mold things out of nothing for purposes that are not entirely pragmatic, such as art and fiction. Sure, beavers 'create' dams and ants 'build' farms, but for means of their own survival. Human beings create for aesthetic pleasure and for the process of creation itself. Well, hold on there a second. I've seen some animals arange piles of things for no forseeable purpose. And I have reason to believe that the chimps at my local zoo have 'decorated' their habitat with various things they've been given. Now your statement may be entirely true, from our perspective, and at the same time be completely false from theirs.
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:11 am
So the underlying quesiton to all of this is... why do we bother with such separations? Humanity tries to create an 'us vs them' mentality between humanity and animals. There really isn't that much distinction, if any at all. Humanity is so full of itself it makes me ashamed to be a member. stare
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:18 am
Starlock So the underlying quesiton to all of this is... why do we bother with such separations? Humanity tries to create an 'us vs them' mentality between humanity and animals. There really isn't that much distinction, if any at all. Humanity is so full of itself it makes me ashamed to be a member. stare
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:17 pm
terranproby42 Well, hold on there a second. I've seen some animals arange piles of things for no forseeable purpose. And I have reason to believe that the chimps at my local zoo have 'decorated' their habitat with various things they've been given. Now your statement may be entirely true, from our perspective, and at the same time be completely false from theirs. Kind of funny... but a cat gave me a "gift". In my boot I found a plastic toy. What was odd is that it was just a yellow toy. I'm sure my sisters didn't do it because one wouldn't think of it, and the other wouldn't have bothered with it. Infact, I thought it was them, but one said she didn't do it, and the other was upstairs. ninja Mechanism Language, not communication. Humans are able to create new words, and to have a quickly adapting language. Funny... the aligator, they say, hasn't evolved for quite a long time. It's because it doesn't have to, they state. It's the perfect thing for what it does. Animals do have a language. Just because we aren't able to understand it doesn't make it not so. I don't understand anything but English, very little Spanish, some ASL... but does that mean that Spanish, ASL, and anything else I don't know isn't a language? Technically, language is communication... Plus, I think that animals could probably communitcate better anyway... since we have trouble understanding each other and wasting time repeating ourselves while they just go and get the message across. Starlock So the underlying quesiton to all of this is... why do we bother with such separations? Why does a bully bother to hurt others? People taunt another for a reaction? It's to believe there is a form of control in their lives I guess. From different books I have read, like Lord of the Flies, Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and a few others, people only have a sense of control if they feel they are "above" other things. Actually... if anything, we may be falling behind... As in, I heard that even insects can somewhat rationalise. Take, for example, catapillars (or whatever they are) that follow each other in a line. They follow a silk trail to different locations. Someone managed to find them going on the lip of a bucket, so he made it an endless loop by putting the silk going around in a circle. Of course, they started to travel in circles. Yet... one of them turned off the path, and later either just made a new one, or managed to find the old silk path, and the other catapillars followed him. I was told that there is a small type of spider that eats bigger spiders. How does it do it? It doesn't go on the web, because that means the bigger spider would just eat it. Instead, it climbs to a position above it, then figuratively shouts "death from above" as it decends on the unwary victim. Who knows... maybe if we don't "watch it", animals will be on an equal standing with us... because some may have gotten the ability to talk. Of course, it's all opinion. Arguably, the spider just has triggers on how to do it, and maybe the catapillar just has a trigger that told it to seek a new path. It's all subjective information... "what floats your boat" is the only thing that is true in it all.
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:43 pm
Meh...let's think about this. I can think of a few things that separate humans from animals.
-We kill for absolutely no reason (except to maybe put a cool stuffed head on a wall).
-We pillage an area dry, then move on or build new ways to pillage.
Now, I got both of those concepts from movies (extra points to whoever names the movies), but they're fairly accurate. We do tend to kill others, animals, people, for almost no reason. And we do have a tendency to drain an area dry of resources, then move on.
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:46 am
aaarhus Funny... the aligator, they say, hasn't evolved for quite a long time. It's because it doesn't have to, they state. It's the perfect thing for what it does. That is irrelevent. I wasn't talking about alligators. Quote: Animals do have a language. Just because we aren't able to understand it doesn't make it not so. They do not invent new words, as I said. Quote: Technically, language is communication... I did not deny that. Quote: since we have trouble understanding each other and wasting time repeating ourselves while they just go and get the message across. That's because we have a wider variety of nuances and expressions, due to the adaptability of human language. In conclusion, read it carefully before responding.
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:56 am
Mechanism That is irrelevent. I wasn't talking about alligators. I was using it as an analogy, that the aligator doesn't need to adapt, while you said language adapts constantly and... Mechanism They do not invent new words, as I said. ... which would mean that, unlike "us", animals don't have a need for making up new words, since their "language" would cover the things needed. Quote: Language, not communication. Mechanism That's because we have a wider variety of nuances and expressions, due to the adaptability of human language. I would think such things would help to get a point across... but I also guess not. And what I mean is that if someone says something, and the other person knows what has just been said, there isn't a need for the thing to be said again. Yet... I have noticed that when asking something for confirmation, people expect you to already know what to do. (Maybe it's just me... but I would think asking for confirmation to prevent a mistake that could cost more than just a simple question would be better than actually making the mistake.) I'm sure that it's much easier to understand an animal when they are trying to tell you something... because they "say" the same thing until you figure out what they are trying to tell you. (I'm talking about a pet here though... like when the cat wants water, it will meow a certain way. Or, when the dog wants a walk, will attempt to attract your attention, then lead you downstairs to the leash.) Mechanism In conclusion, read it carefully before responding. I did... And if I did mess up somewhere in this post, please clarify. Although I don't want to get this to the point of arguement. I know I don't enjoy it, and I'm pretty sure that no one wants to start a heated debate over a misunderstanding.
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