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 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:51 pm
You cant really just read that and know for sure. One day when I go to eternity, I'm going to ask God many unanswered questions.
I dont think I have EVER said "I think abortion is wrong ebcause the bible says so"
I think abortion is wrong period, the end.
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:36 pm
Ri-san You cant really just read that and know for sure. One day when I go to eternity, I'm going to ask God many unanswered questions. I dont think I have EVER said "I think abortion is wrong ebcause the bible says so" I think abortion is wrong period, the end. I second that. I dislike abortion for moral reasons, not religious ones.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:58 pm
foomonster Rowena Lightwolf I don't mean this as an attack or anything, but it seems to me that following that logic, I would be able to reasonably state that murder is okay as well. Elaborate. Quote: somebodys_PeNgUIN These instances were used to punish peoples for sins. These people that are having their children killed were enemies of God. They had wronged either God's people or God himself. Okay, so, assuming that you're pro-life and have a pro-life standpoint, why should another being be killed for something someone else did? footmonster Quote: They had partaken of many different sinful practices. It is not safe to say that the bible legalizes abortion in all cases when these were for specific things done against God. I never said that the Bible legalizes it in all cases, I was just pointing out that god isn't pro-life. foomonster Quote: And even so, this just proves that God is not pro-choice, since he gave the women having the children no choice in the matter whether they wanted them to live or die. I wasn't saying he was pro-choice, I was saying that he was not pro-life. foomonster Mystic_moon15 i dont care what you say the bible sez IT IS STILL MURDER. Where does it say it's murder? foomonster Quote: no matter how you look at it it is MURDER you are killing an inocent child for no reason. Not really, a fetus is just a bunch of cells, and, uh, most women have good reasons have abortions. (I don't want this to become an argument on whether abortion is wrong or not.) foomonster CrazyKat685 I see you have a good point but ummm yeah.... YOU GOT THIS FROM THE OLD TESTIMENT! IT ALSO SAYS SO SMITE ALL WHO ARE WICKED. Poke your eyes out if you lust for another woman. Clearly the NEW TESTIMENT preaches something different. It preaches of love and kindness. So? The Bible clearly says here - "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB) foomonster Quote: 1)God is sentincing a punishment is seems, read before and after If god had a pro-life viewpoint than he wouldn't be killing an innocent "child" as a punishment would he? foomonster Ablazed foomonster Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God?s intervention. ?Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.?Read through the entire chapter of Hosea. These are the words written by Hosea, not by God. My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him; they will be wanderers among the nations. (Hosea 9:17)The entire passage is just wishful thinking on the part of Hosea. The Bible says all scripture is inspired by god. Quote: foomonster Numbers 31:17 (Moses) ?Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.?Yes, god is saying to kill all the suspected pregnant women, which also kills the fetus. Incorrect. God is not the one speaking... Moses is. And let's take a look at some context again, shall we? 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:15-18 ) Wow. How savage and utterly brutal is that? Save for yourselves the young girls? This is horrible! And no, God is not saying kill all the suspected preganant women. Moses is ordering that every female who is not a virgin be killed. As well as all the males. This was an oddly normal practice back in those times, when an entire people was plundered or taken over by another. The women were taken into captivity as slaves, and everyone else was slain. foomonster All the suspected pregnant wo/men, which are probably pregnant. So you're saying that it's okay to kill a person if s/he isn't a virgin but not okay to kill a lump of cells (considering how old the fetus is)? And you seem kinda blind if you'd just overlook the fact that the women were taken in to be slaves. foomonster Gah, I'm not taking any more debates now, too tired, if you wish to debate with me about something different, post here.
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:47 pm
What you need to understand is how God deals with sin in the Old Testament. Christ hadn't come yet, so our sins hadn't been paid for. The price of sin is death and blood. This is why sacrifices of spotless lambs and heifers were made to the Lord in the Old Testament: to pay for sins. Thus, in this case when the sins and wrong-doings against God and his people were severe enough, he demanded the blood to pay for their sins, and he demanded the blood of their people: man, woman, and child (save the virgins, as afore mentioned). Therefore, you see that it is completely justified why he asked for their deaths: the sins called for death and blood as payment, which is always the case in the Old Testament.
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:58 pm
look what i was saying is that no matter what nebody sez i am fully against abortion.
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:14 pm
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:30 pm
Wow, I'll have to tell you for the third time to keep your signature out of here.
First of all, you lack understanding. You use the worst translation in the universe, namely, the KJV. It says, "Thou shalt not kill." It should be "Do not murder." Second, don't assume that just because what's wrong for us, is wrong for God. Third, Christians don't follow the Old Testament laws. You obviously do not understand this either. Maybe we can throw the full Colossians 2 at you.
Now, children aren't born sinless. Psalm 51 is a good chapter to read. While you like to show the "opposing" side, I would like to show what the Bible says. Jeremiah and Paul of Tarsus were called before they were born (Jeremiah 1:5; Galatians 1:15). David was "knit" in his mothers womb by God (Psalm 139:13-16). John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb when the voice of Mary, the mother of the Lord, was heard. God condemned children sacrifices. The heathen nations taught to have their children "pass through fire," sacrificing them to their god, Molech. God cares for life, but He abhors sin and wickedness, because He is undeniably a holy, righteous and just God.
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:11 pm
foomonster, the Bible doesn't 'contradict' itself. He is the God of Love but is a God of Wrath. Isn't he our Father in Heaven and when we are bad, punish us. He is also a forgiving God and when we ask Him to forgive us, He does. And all scripture IS God inspired or it wouldn't be there, understand? No matter who wrote it, it's still there.
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:39 am
I find it funny; that when cornered, they always pull out their "open-minded" card.
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:24 am
And this is where I step in...again...and explain the baby thing. Foo you said that a fetus in the first trimester can not think and all that other stuff a good little fetus babe can right? Right. Well...a baby in the first trimester is an Embryo hun. The embryo is the little bundle of cells with no feelings and thoughts. The embryo is the one that is forming in the first trimester and as soon as that embryo gains a heart beat. Its a fetus. A fetus is the growing baby that breaths and thinks. Not an embryo. Sorry, but you were clearly incorrect in your statement about the fetus. You are talking about an embryo. Summary:
Embryo: Bundle of cells growing in a female, no heart beat, no thoughts, no feelings.
Fetus: The breathing, thinking, feeling mass in a female called a growing baby.
I don't care about all the other stuff you are debating about, because I don't debate anything over the old testament since it was before forgivness was given. The old testament was where God used tough love to get through to people. The new testament God gave Christ, and since Christ took our sins in the new testament, God does not have to use 'tough love' anymore. Think of it that way.
Also, you stated about abortion and women with sanity...well...she did and so I got really confused. I was always taught that if you had the choice of your baby living, or you...but only one of those could live, then you would choose the baby. You have lived a good portion of your life and the baby has yet to see light out of the womb. I would gladly give up my life for the baby, why? Because I have seen all that I have seen. But then...after thinking about it...you're right. Everyone wants to live, I know I would say no. For probably days and days after my 'abortion' I would probably go into a motherly depression. I commited legalized murder, as so it has been called a few times. I killed something that was apart of my body, my blood...I killed a living piece of me...or...if an embryo...a piece of me that would have been living...would have thrived. The mental break down would leave me to vegitate in my home, I would not want to do anything. I would think about what that baby would have become, and what he/she would have done in his/her life. I would always be mentally plagued with the fact that I destroyed a life...a life to be. Someone/something that could have made a diffrence in someone's life...or a diffrence to the world. Even the disabled children make a diffrence in someone's life...so in summary to that:
You do not know in any sort of way, shape or form on what a woman thinks when she has to deside on weither or not to abort a baby. You don't know how mentally challenging and how mentally ill the woman would be after it has been done. No man can readily and asertivly say that a woman would quickly choose to give up the baby, because as I have just stated...a lot of things go through our minds with that choice. That isn't even the half of it. For some women they get sick and sometimes just go literally insane. Its a hard choice. You're choosing something that could change not one life, but two. Do not test a mother's will, pryorities and thoughts. They are much more complex and mysterious than you would ever know.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:53 am
foomonster Fushigi na Butterfly You'd be wrong either way. I'd automatically be wrong? Wow, open-minded you are. foomonster Fushigi na Butterfly When you take someone else's life, it's murder. Okay, you're taking millions or micro-organisms life when you breath, is that murder too? Would you go to hell for that? foomonster Quote: no matter how you look at it it is MURDER you are killing an inocent child for no reason. Not really, a fetus is just a bunch of cells, and, uh, most women have good reasons have abortions. (I don't want this to become an argument on whether abortion is wrong or not.) Fushigi na Butterfly Did you know that with today's technology a fetus is viable outside of its mother's body only after five month's of development? And by the time a woman knows she's pregnant, the heart is beating? A fetus may be "just a bunch of cells" but those cells are alive and active and creating life. And what's a good reason for a woman to have an abortion? As a means of birth control? Control the pregnancy before it happens. Because she was raped? If a woman is raped, she is so traumatized that it is physically impossible for her body to actually conceive anyway. Incest? If the baby is going to die after it's born, then let it happen after it's born; don't take a child's life into your own hands by not even giving it a chance. The mother's going to die? Surely if this pregnancy was wanted, it's her baby. Any sane mother I know would gladly give her life up for the child's. If the pregnancy isn't wanted? Go back to the first thing I said. Shall I go on? The fetus has no heart for the first trimester. Alive? A fetus cannot think, feel, have emotions, anything. A reason is maye she doesn't want to be pregnant. Okay, control the pregnancy before it happens, that means to never have sex unless you want to get pregnant, want to have sex on your honeymoon? Nope, only if you want to get pregnant. Don't want to have kids? Than you shall die a virgin. Dear god, a romantic relashionship can't just be cuddling and kissing. And it is impossible to conieve a fetus with rape? What? Have you bveliving under a rock your whole life? It IS posible, just unlikely when you're traumatized. And why force a baby in the case of incest to live? It is going to have severe mental and physical deformities and shall have a very hard time getting on through life. A sane woman would give up her life for her baby? I dare you to say that to a woman in an abortion clinic who need an abortion because she will die if she doesn't. Why don't we force people to commit suicide to lower porverty and starvation rates so people won't die from it? Because no one wants to give up thier life. Plain and simple.
As far as a baby of incest having severe mental and physical birth defects, you make it sound so 100% probable, and if it's the case, then the baby will naturally die on its own. Why should humans interfere and kill it before it even has a chance? And besides, that would be the same as aborting every single baby diagnosed with Down syndrome and Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. They're gonna be retarded- eh, just kill 'em.
No one would give up their life, right. Say you had a child (not a child on the way, but a living, breathing, actual child), and you had a choice to either let your child die, or die in his/her place. You gonna send your child to the slaughter? If so, you're not human and you need some serious help. Risen. Angel. summed it up pretty well I think.foomonster Fushigi na Butterfly Again, this was how things worked in the Old Testament. If you did something bad, you died, and so did everyone connected and related to you. I made a similar comment before; scroll up. God is a God of Love, but he's also a jealous God, and a God of wrath. See above. The Bible just contridicts itself. foomonster Gah, I'm not taking any more debates now, too tired, if you wish to debate with me about something different, post here. Fushigi na Butterfly That's because all of your points have been shot down and you know you're wrong. All those instances you pointed out are circumstancial. They broke what was the law of God at that time, and so were punished accordingly. Geez, I was just tired of having to repeat the same things over and over again from people debating. That means my points are weak and I know I'm wrong? Yeah, whatever you say. rolleyes
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:55 am
Chronowatcher I find it funny; that when cornered, they always pull out their "open-minded" card.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:07 am
Chronowatcher I find it funny; that when cornered, they always pull out their "open-minded" card. Ain't no doubt. My thoughts exactly.
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:50 am
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:11 pm
I love how he just decides not to post anymore. xd
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