TKD Question

[The Draken]

TaeKyon

[draken]

Why do people constantly say that TKD is terrible in a fight? TKD teaches speed, height, and power. Combine them, and the fight's over in one shot. D<

Even though WTF TKD is a full contact and highly competitive athletic sport. It is "terrible" in a real "fight" because a.) lack of handskills (fact: TKD has punches, the catch: punching to the head is illegal, punching to the body doesn't score points, so it's rarely if ever used in a match so it's rarely trained effectively) b.) because of their lack of handskills and because punching to the face is illegal, most TKD athletes don't keep their hands up (this is perfectly fine in the sport, terrible for a "fight") c.) lack of grappling/ground skills (not a worry in competition, thus why TKD doesn't usually train this skill set)

ITF TKD is no better, true they can punch to the face but a.) most ITF TKD fighters still don't keep their hands up b.) their sparring is technically not full contact (which reinforces weak/unrealistic techniques) c.) lack of ground/grappling skills also.

But you're right, TKD (WTF) does teach speed, timing, power, it's also true that it only takes one shot to end a fight. The problem w/ TKD as an effective means of self defense or form of fighting is that it's incomplete and not the most effective art one could choose for that purpose. I addressed the art's incompleteness in the reasons above, the other factor is the fundamental weakness in kicking techniques. They're risky in a real fight because they put you off balance and relative to punching require a lot more commitment to the technique (meaning they're slower and will you pay more for missing a kick than you will if you miss a punch) TKD does not train how to kick when an opponent can grab that kick or shoot for your other leg and take you down nor does it teach you what to do once you're on the ground w/ your opponent sitting on your chest raining punches and elbows into your face. This is the same reason you don't see too much kicking (or TKD) in MMA.

[draken]

Furthermore, what if you don't intend on getting into any fights? What if you just want to learn TKD? Or respect? Or good moral values?

Perfectly fine, in fact, preferred. Most TKD athletes I know have no delusion that they're athletes and not capable street fighters. A lot of MMA/kickboxing/boxing/combat sport fighters probably feel the same way I'm betting. And in that respect, it's okay that TKD is incomplete, it just means it's not effective for no holds barred type situations.

[draken]

Furthermore, TKD uses hands to block, not legs.

Footwork is generally preferred over hard blocks anyway (WTF).

EDIT: Pretty sure "Grand Master" is 6th thru 9th according to Kukkiwon.

That's a lot I didn't know. I'm a WTF black belt, but I've never done any sport-esque things. I have competed, but I have never sparred. That's both a disadvantage (I don't have fighting experience), but an advantage as well. For instance, we use hand techniques a lot, and we aren't taught not to punch in the face, since we don't spar much. Ergo, we have more 'realistic' training as opposed to 'athletic training'.
That's why I prefer Traditional over Olympic style.

While I know that I can fight, I know for certain that I'm not always guaranteed a win. If I get into a fight, I may win, I may lose. It depends on the situation.

Quote:

Footwork is generally preferred over hard blocks anyway (WTF).

Do you mean that WTFTKD uses feet to block? That's actually pretty weird. Other than outside/inside cresent kicks, I don't see how any other kicks can really 'block'.  

[Woglinde]

[draken]

Quote:

Footwork is generally preferred over hard blocks anyway (WTF).

Do you mean that WTFTKD uses feet to block? That's actually pretty weird. Other than outside/inside cresent kicks, I don't see how any other kicks can really 'block'.

I guess another would be if someone tries to kick you with a frontsnap, you could hold your foot out in sort of a low sidekick to intercept their shin, causing them to drive their own shin into the rough sole of your shoe  

[The Draken]

Woglinde

[draken]

Quote:

Footwork is generally preferred over hard blocks anyway (WTF).

Do you mean that WTFTKD uses feet to block? That's actually pretty weird. Other than outside/inside cresent kicks, I don't see how any other kicks can really 'block'.

I guess another would be if someone tries to kick you with a frontsnap, you could hold your foot out in sort of a low sidekick to intercept their shin, causing them to drive their own shin into the rough sole of your shoe

Yeah, but you could also take a step backwards. =/

That would take less time than to get into side-kicking formation.

 

[Keyboard Warrior]

[draken]

That's a lot I didn't know. I'm a WTF black belt, but I've never done any sport-esque things. I have competed, but I have never sparred. That's both a disadvantage (I don't have fighting experience), but an advantage as well. For instance, we use hand techniques a lot, and we aren't taught not to punch in the face, since we don't spar much. Ergo, we have more 'realistic' training as opposed to 'athletic training'.
That's why I prefer Traditional over Olympic style.

While I know that I can fight, I know for certain that I'm not always guaranteed a win. If I get into a fight, I may win, I may lose. It depends on the situation.

...If you've never sparred, how do you know that what you know works? If you've never felt contact, how do you know what to do when you DO get hit? Realistic training my a**.

Oh and WTF is Olympic style.  

[TaeKyon]

[draken]

That's a lot I didn't know. I'm a WTF black belt, but I've never done any sport-esque things. I have competed, but I have never sparred. That's both a disadvantage (I don't have fighting experience), but an advantage as well. For instance, we use hand techniques a lot, and we aren't taught not to punch in the face, since we don't spar much. Ergo, we have more 'realistic' training as opposed to 'athletic training'.
That's why I prefer Traditional over Olympic style.

While I know that I can fight, I know for certain that I'm not always guaranteed a win. If I get into a fight, I may win, I may lose. It depends on the situation.

Quote:

Footwork is generally preferred over hard blocks anyway (WTF).

Do you mean that WTFTKD uses feet to block? That's actually pretty weird. Other than outside/inside cresent kicks, I don't see how any other kicks can really 'block'.

To be WTF TKD and not spar is somewhat contradictory. WTF technically isn't a style per se in that it outlines TKD's curriculum (that's what the Kukkiwon is for) but rather is actually the governing body of TKD competitions (thus why most people call TKD that emphasizes the sport just WTF TKD) Your dojang is probably either associated w/ the Kukkiwon and/or recognized by the WTF in case if anyone wants to compete. (though why your instructor doesn't emphasize it then seems somewhat moot)

We don't completly ignore hand techniques either but we don't use them in competition is all. As for your "more realistic" training, consider the method of your training. Most likely you're in a horse stance throwing punches at air or in some deep forward stance throwing a punch at an imaginary target. When it comes to actually applying a technique there's a lot more to it than the actual technique itself, such as getting within range to deliver that technique in the first place. If you've never sparred before, you thus don't have the training or experience to get in range against a live opponent (trust me, a lot harder than it seems, any combat sport competitor can tell you that). The athlete, even though he doesn't train punching to the face at least has the tools to get in range enough to deliver a punch if necessary. (at which point, they're training in punching is as equal as yours) In that way, the sport training is more realistic; the skills and tools gained from sparring against a live opponent (dynamic timing, realistic force feedback and resistance, dynamic spacing, not to mention the mindset) are just too valuable for a "fighter."

And no no no, I don't mean that WTF TKD use their feet to block. I mean that they rarely block at all (rarely see it in high level competitions) and if they do it's usually a last ditch effort to absorb a kick to the trunk; this is why most TKD athletes don't keep their hands up, they rarely need to block. What I meant by footwork is that it's much more efficient to evade and counter relying more on spacing and timing than hard blocks. Blocking and countering is often too slow for the sport of TKD.  

[The Draken]

TaeKyon

[draken]

That's a lot I didn't know. I'm a WTF black belt, but I've never done any sport-esque things. I have competed, but I have never sparred. That's both a disadvantage (I don't have fighting experience), but an advantage as well. For instance, we use hand techniques a lot, and we aren't taught not to punch in the face, since we don't spar much. Ergo, we have more 'realistic' training as opposed to 'athletic training'.
That's why I prefer Traditional over Olympic style.

While I know that I can fight, I know for certain that I'm not always guaranteed a win. If I get into a fight, I may win, I may lose. It depends on the situation.

Quote:

Footwork is generally preferred over hard blocks anyway (WTF).

Do you mean that WTFTKD uses feet to block? That's actually pretty weird. Other than outside/inside cresent kicks, I don't see how any other kicks can really 'block'.

To be WTF TKD and not spar is somewhat contradictory. WTF technically isn't a style per se in that it outlines TKD's curriculum (that's what the Kukkiwon is for) but rather is actually the governing body of TKD competitions (thus why most people call TKD that emphasizes the sport just WTF TKD) Your dojang is probably either associated w/ the Kukkiwon and/or recognized by the WTF in case if anyone wants to compete. (though why your instructor doesn't emphasize it then seems somewhat moot)

We don't completly ignore hand techniques either but we don't use them in competition is all. As for your "more realistic" training, consider the method of your training. Most likely you're in a horse stance throwing punches at air or in some deep forward stance throwing a punch at an imaginary target. When it comes to actually applying a technique there's a lot more to it than the actual technique itself, such as getting within range to deliver that technique in the first place. If you've never sparred before, you thus don't have the training or experience to get in range against a live opponent (trust me, a lot harder than it seems, any combat sport competitor can tell you that). The athlete, even though he doesn't train punching to the face at least has the tools to get in range enough to deliver a punch if necessary. (at which point, they're training in punching is as equal as yours) In that way, the sport training is more realistic; the skills and tools gained from sparring against a live opponent (dynamic timing, realistic force feedback and resistance, dynamic spacing, not to mention the mindset) are just too valuable for a "fighter."

And no no no, I don't mean that WTF TKD use their feet to block. I mean that they rarely block at all (rarely see it in high level competitions) and if they do it's usually a last ditch effort to absorb a kick to the trunk; this is why most TKD athletes don't keep their hands up, they rarely need to block. What I meant by footwork is that it's much more efficient to evade and counter relying more on spacing and timing than hard blocks. Blocking and countering is often too slow for the sport of TKD.

Mm. Good point(s).
Are there any other ways, aside from sparring, that would allow you to practice your perception of distance, or ability to get in range?

 

[Keyboard Warrior]

[draken]

TaeKyon

[draken]

That's a lot I didn't know. I'm a WTF black belt, but I've never done any sport-esque things. I have competed, but I have never sparred. That's both a disadvantage (I don't have fighting experience), but an advantage as well. For instance, we use hand techniques a lot, and we aren't taught not to punch in the face, since we don't spar much. Ergo, we have more 'realistic' training as opposed to 'athletic training'.
That's why I prefer Traditional over Olympic style.

While I know that I can fight, I know for certain that I'm not always guaranteed a win. If I get into a fight, I may win, I may lose. It depends on the situation.

Quote:

Footwork is generally preferred over hard blocks anyway (WTF).

Do you mean that WTFTKD uses feet to block? That's actually pretty weird. Other than outside/inside cresent kicks, I don't see how any other kicks can really 'block'.

To be WTF TKD and not spar is somewhat contradictory. WTF technically isn't a style per se in that it outlines TKD's curriculum (that's what the Kukkiwon is for) but rather is actually the governing body of TKD competitions (thus why most people call TKD that emphasizes the sport just WTF TKD) Your dojang is probably either associated w/ the Kukkiwon and/or recognized by the WTF in case if anyone wants to compete. (though why your instructor doesn't emphasize it then seems somewhat moot)

We don't completly ignore hand techniques either but we don't use them in competition is all. As for your "more realistic" training, consider the method of your training. Most likely you're in a horse stance throwing punches at air or in some deep forward stance throwing a punch at an imaginary target. When it comes to actually applying a technique there's a lot more to it than the actual technique itself, such as getting within range to deliver that technique in the first place. If you've never sparred before, you thus don't have the training or experience to get in range against a live opponent (trust me, a lot harder than it seems, any combat sport competitor can tell you that). The athlete, even though he doesn't train punching to the face at least has the tools to get in range enough to deliver a punch if necessary. (at which point, they're training in punching is as equal as yours) In that way, the sport training is more realistic; the skills and tools gained from sparring against a live opponent (dynamic timing, realistic force feedback and resistance, dynamic spacing, not to mention the mindset) are just too valuable for a "fighter."

And no no no, I don't mean that WTF TKD use their feet to block. I mean that they rarely block at all (rarely see it in high level competitions) and if they do it's usually a last ditch effort to absorb a kick to the trunk; this is why most TKD athletes don't keep their hands up, they rarely need to block. What I meant by footwork is that it's much more efficient to evade and counter relying more on spacing and timing than hard blocks. Blocking and countering is often too slow for the sport of TKD.

Mm. Good point(s).
Are there any other ways, aside from sparring, that would allow you to practice your perception of distance, or ability to get in range?

Are you looking for every reason NOT to spar? I mean, seriously, if you want to be an efficient fighter and not some pansy a** martial LARPer, then spar....and spar hard and continuous.  

[TaeKyon]

[draken]

Are there any other ways, aside from sparring, that would allow you to practice your perception of distance, or ability to get in range?

Sparring drills? But at that point you may as well spar. You really can't get a realistic impression of fighting against a dynamic and living opponent w/out that living dynamic element.

I suppose shadow boxing might be a possibility, tho that's still limited and still assumes you have experience to base your visualizations on (otherwise you're still assuming what you can do and unaware of how an opponent will react or move). Shadow boxing is a good way to make static training more "alive."  

[The Draken]

Keyboard Warrior

[draken]

TaeKyon

[draken]

That's a lot I didn't know. I'm a WTF black belt, but I've never done any sport-esque things. I have competed, but I have never sparred. That's both a disadvantage (I don't have fighting experience), but an advantage as well. For instance, we use hand techniques a lot, and we aren't taught not to punch in the face, since we don't spar much. Ergo, we have more 'realistic' training as opposed to 'athletic training'.
That's why I prefer Traditional over Olympic style.

While I know that I can fight, I know for certain that I'm not always guaranteed a win. If I get into a fight, I may win, I may lose. It depends on the situation.

Quote:

Footwork is generally preferred over hard blocks anyway (WTF).

Do you mean that WTFTKD uses feet to block? That's actually pretty weird. Other than outside/inside cresent kicks, I don't see how any other kicks can really 'block'.

To be WTF TKD and not spar is somewhat contradictory. WTF technically isn't a style per se in that it outlines TKD's curriculum (that's what the Kukkiwon is for) but rather is actually the governing body of TKD competitions (thus why most people call TKD that emphasizes the sport just WTF TKD) Your dojang is probably either associated w/ the Kukkiwon and/or recognized by the WTF in case if anyone wants to compete. (though why your instructor doesn't emphasize it then seems somewhat moot)

We don't completly ignore hand techniques either but we don't use them in competition is all. As for your "more realistic" training, consider the method of your training. Most likely you're in a horse stance throwing punches at air or in some deep forward stance throwing a punch at an imaginary target. When it comes to actually applying a technique there's a lot more to it than the actual technique itself, such as getting within range to deliver that technique in the first place. If you've never sparred before, you thus don't have the training or experience to get in range against a live opponent (trust me, a lot harder than it seems, any combat sport competitor can tell you that). The athlete, even though he doesn't train punching to the face at least has the tools to get in range enough to deliver a punch if necessary. (at which point, they're training in punching is as equal as yours) In that way, the sport training is more realistic; the skills and tools gained from sparring against a live opponent (dynamic timing, realistic force feedback and resistance, dynamic spacing, not to mention the mindset) are just too valuable for a "fighter."

And no no no, I don't mean that WTF TKD use their feet to block. I mean that they rarely block at all (rarely see it in high level competitions) and if they do it's usually a last ditch effort to absorb a kick to the trunk; this is why most TKD athletes don't keep their hands up, they rarely need to block. What I meant by footwork is that it's much more efficient to evade and counter relying more on spacing and timing than hard blocks. Blocking and countering is often too slow for the sport of TKD.

Mm. Good point(s).
Are there any other ways, aside from sparring, that would allow you to practice your perception of distance, or ability to get in range?

Are you looking for every reason NOT to spar? I mean, seriously, if you want to be an efficient fighter and not some pansy a** martial LARPer, then spar....and spar hard and continuous.

No. I'm looking to see if there's any alternatives to sparring.
I'm very open to the idea. I've done it once or twice in the past.

And thank you, Tae Kyon.  

[Kitsune_Moon230]

Many put TKD down. I believe it is not the art of Tae Kwon Do that is disappointing to some, but it is the instructors. I have been taking Korean TKD for awhile now, and I have come to like it, no........LOVE IT! I have never felt so discipline nor in such great spirtitual and physical condition. I have great traditional and hard working instructors, their influence has made our schools great.  

[The Draken]

Kitsune_Moon230

Many put TKD down. I believe it is not the art of Tae Kwon Do that is disappointing to some, but it is the instructors. I have been taking Korean TKD for awhile now, and I have come to like it, no........LOVE IT! I have never felt so discipline nor in such great spirtitual and physical condition. I have great traditional and hard working instructors, their influence has made our schools great.

There is no such thing as non-Korean Tae Kwon Do.