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I didn't meant that we don't get second chances. I mean by putting a human face on god, we feel like we can better relate to god. We can understand a walking, breathing, living thing, but we can't understand an abstract, cloud-like form.

Sure that wasn't Leviathan?

He's got a point but some of us do anyway. I think his point was to scare us to do good things. We should do them on our own.

I'd very much like to take a look at that. Are there any good English translations of the Jewish (and NOT Christian) version?

and

Ok, let's start with these. first thing to note is how Satan is adressed - he's listed as one of the "sons of G-d." In the Hebrew, the word translated as Satan in these passages is more accurately "the satan" ('ha-satan;' not capitalized as a name would be)or 'the adversary.' But, clearly, he is not G-d's adversary, because he's a welcome part of His court. Too, Satan apparently spends his time wandering the earth, and though we don't know why, during the rest of the Book of Job, he plauges Job with all manner of afflictions under G-d's command. (Incidently, all of the tribulations visited upon Job are prefigured/mentioned in Dueteronomy (chapter 2 cool and some portions closely parallel descriptions of afflictions/trials in Isaiah (ch 52 - 53) - but given that many people see Job as an allegory, that isn't too unusual.)

Satan only appears briefly in the first section (Job is generally acknoledged to consist of 3 seperate parts of unequal length), but it is clearly as G-d's agent on Earth and not as a foe or competitor.

here's a link to a copy of the text of Job in English - specifically the King James version (which I don't particularly care for).

(As another aside, though some consider the story of Job to be alegorical, others consider him to have been an actual person. Job is also mentioned as a figure in Islam (as a prophet, no less), and can be foung in the Qu'ran in a few places - however, his name is of course rebdered differently (something close to Ayyub). )

Actually, the whole "Lucifer" thing isn't such a mystery if you read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. Lucifer is a Roman/Latin translate for light-bearer, yes, but it is used for several different things in the Bible.

Typically, Christians tend to draw the name Lucifer for Satan from Isaiah 14:12
In Hebrew, this line translates something like:
How you have fallen from the heavens o shining star son of the morning...
In Greek it is:
ho 'Eosphoros ho proianatellon or bright light that rose in the morning

Compare this to Reveleation 22:16 which in Greek is
aster ho ampros ho proinos or the bright and morning star

So... is the morning star Satan or Christ?

The answer is both. "Morning star" in both of these cases is actually a matter of rank in a spiritual hierarchy/cosmology.

Going back to Job 38 which in Greek is ote egenephesan astra, enesan me phone megale pantes aggeloi mou and the Hebrew it is translated from is something like "when sang together the stars of the morning and shouted for joy all the sons of G-d" Here we can see that there are more than one of these morning-stars; too, the Hebrew phrase used here for "stars of the morning" (kokawb boquer, for a rough transliteration) could easily be figuratively taken to mean "princes." (The construction of the phrasing of the verse in Hebrew could indicate that the morning-stars were created after the sons of G-d if one were so inclined.)

So, the satan (or the adversary or Samael or what-have-you) is one of these morning-stars or light-bearers, and the Christ takes up the same status/station/rank at some point after his ascent or return.

(As another aside, the ancient Babylonians (who weren't too far removed from the Jews remember), also had a light-bearer (again as a state of status or rulership). Their light-bearer however was Ishtar. But, Ishtar could appear in one of two ways - as the morning-star or as the evening-star. In her role as the Evening Star she was love (specifically of a sexual nature, but love nonetheless), but in her role as the Morning/Day Star she was a goddess of war.)

I didn't like the yellow text; it's obnoxiously hard to read on my screen.

This line is actually from a fictitious Christian Poem, Paradise Lost written by John Milton published in 1667. I would not really call the poem a Christian text.

Really? Cool. I just quoted Milton. I've read the poem in my English class but hadn't made the connection. The fact that that is a line from his poem is pure accident.

And I apologize for the yellow. I was going to use green, but then I remembered how another member of a different guild had had trouble reading it. I just went for the most dramatic change from black without it being whilte.