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 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:57 pm
Faith without works is indeed dead, as well as works without faith.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:58 pm
windswept_fury marysservant windswept_fury marysservant marysservant windswept_fury That place would be Purgatory, and no, it doesn't exist. You shouldn't say that, I believe what she was asking was if it existed in the doctrine of the Catholic church (you know what I mean). I don't want to write a lot on this issue, so I'll give you a link I found. http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ93.HTM I hope this helps. I'm not very informed on the issue of Purgatory, I read a lot of stuff on it, with a bunch of scriptural evidence, I just forgot, *looks franticly around house for the book "Letters between a Catholic and an Evangelical." I don't want proof from some book. I want proof from the Bible. No where in the Bible does it talk about Purgatory. John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, He gave His only Son, that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." It doesn't say that we have to pay for our sins - Christ did on the cross. And if we believe that he did what He says He did, and that He is who He says He is - we go to Heaven. It's that simple. The proof doesn't come from the book itself, the book just points out SCRIPTURE and has discussions between a Catholic Priest and a Protestant Minister who are both trying to point out the truth. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Well then, you'd best consider posting scripture that supports the Catholics I've yet to see it, unless it's misinterpreted. I will, just be patient.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:02 pm
marysservant Actually no, did James not point out that: "My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actoins do not prove it? Can that faith save you? Suppose there are brothers or sisters who need clothes and don't have enought to eat. What good is there in your saying to them, "God bless you! Keep warm and eat well!"--if you don't give them the necessities of life? So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead." ? - James 2:14-17 And: "Even the Demons believe, and tremble with fear" - James 2:19 Faith, logically, requires actions, but only when there is enough time for actions to take place. If I were on my deathbed, and the moment before I died, I accepted Christ, and had true faith, I believe I would get to heaven. However, this is usually not the case. What you quoted simply points out that one cannot have faith, if they do not intend to do the works, as well as do the works. Now, how does this prove purgatory?
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:03 pm
chaoticpuppet marysservant Actually no, did James not point out that: "My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actoins do not prove it? Can that faith save you? Suppose there are brothers or sisters who need clothes and don't have enought to eat. What good is there in your saying to them, "God bless you! Keep warm and eat well!"--if you don't give them the necessities of life? So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead." ? - James 2:14-17 And: "Even the Demons believe, and tremble with fear" - James 2:19 Faith, logically, requires actions, but only when there is enough time for actions to take place. If I were on my deathbed, and the moment before I died, I accepted Christ, and had true faith, I believe I would get to heaven. However, this is usually not the case. What you quoted simply points out that one cannot have faith, if they do not intend to do the works, as well as do the works. Now, how does this prove purgatory? It doesn't, it just proves her statement wrong, that belief is all that it takes.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:05 pm
marysservant It doesn't, it just proves her statement wrong, that belief is all that it takes. It doesn't prove her wrong, it proves that true belief is all it takes. If there is true belief, there must be works/intended works.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:05 pm
marysservant windswept_fury marysservant marysservant windswept_fury That place would be Purgatory, and no, it doesn't exist. You shouldn't say that, I believe what she was asking was if it existed in the doctrine of the Catholic church (you know what I mean). I don't want to write a lot on this issue, so I'll give you a link I found. http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ93.HTM I hope this helps. I'm not very informed on the issue of Purgatory, I read a lot of stuff on it, with a bunch of scriptural evidence, I just forgot, *looks franticly around house for the book "Letters between a Catholic and an Evangelical." I don't want proof from some book. I want proof from the Bible. No where in the Bible does it talk about Purgatory. John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, He gave His only Son, that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." It doesn't say that we have to pay for our sins - Christ did on the cross. And if we believe that he did what He says He did, and that He is who He says He is - we go to Heaven. It's that simple. Actually no, did James not point out that: "My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actoins do not prove it? Can that faith save you? Suppose there are brothers or sisters who need clothes and don't have enought to eat. What good is there in your saying to them, "God bless you! Keep warm and eat well!"--if you don't give them the necessities of life? So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead." ? - James 2:14-17 And: "Even the Demons believe, and tremble with fear" - James 2:19 Learn to post the whole verse. John 2:19 - " You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe - and tremble!" Anyways, Faith and works do go hand in hand. If you don't feel the urge of the Holy Spirit telling you to help others, you don't have the faith. Proud, haughty Christians are only Christians by name. True Christians are those who know what Jesus did for them and will in turn live their lives to serve Him - by helping others. They don't live so that they may go to heaven. They live that way becasue they know they're saved by grace, and nothing can pay the debt they owe.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:09 pm
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:10 pm
chaoticpuppet marysservant It doesn't, it just proves her statement wrong, that belief is all that it takes. It doesn't prove her wrong, it proves that true belief is all it takes. If there is true belief, there must be works/intended works. Good Lord.. I'm actually agreeing with you, and you're supporting me.. I never thought this would happen. Let me go take a deep breath.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:11 pm
chaoticpuppet marysservant It doesn't, it just proves her statement wrong, that belief is all that it takes. It doesn't prove her wrong, it proves that true belief is all it takes. If there is true belief, there must be works/intended works. What is that supposed to mean? True belief? Satan has "true belief!" He was an angel! You'd think he would believe that Christ was the Messiah, he just didn't worship him as God, although he knew he was God.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:13 pm
windswept_fury marysservant windswept_fury marysservant marysservant windswept_fury That place would be Purgatory, and no, it doesn't exist. You shouldn't say that, I believe what she was asking was if it existed in the doctrine of the Catholic church (you know what I mean). I don't want to write a lot on this issue, so I'll give you a link I found. http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ93.HTM I hope this helps. I'm not very informed on the issue of Purgatory, I read a lot of stuff on it, with a bunch of scriptural evidence, I just forgot, *looks franticly around house for the book "Letters between a Catholic and an Evangelical." I don't want proof from some book. I want proof from the Bible. No where in the Bible does it talk about Purgatory. John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, He gave His only Son, that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." It doesn't say that we have to pay for our sins - Christ did on the cross. And if we believe that he did what He says He did, and that He is who He says He is - we go to Heaven. It's that simple. Actually no, did James not point out that: "My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actoins do not prove it? Can that faith save you? Suppose there are brothers or sisters who need clothes and don't have enought to eat. What good is there in your saying to them, "God bless you! Keep warm and eat well!"--if you don't give them the necessities of life? So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead." ? - James 2:14-17 And: "Even the Demons believe, and tremble with fear" - James 2:19 Learn to post the whole verse. John 2:19 - " You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe - and tremble!" Anyways, Faith and works do go hand in hand. If you don't feel the urge of the Holy Spirit telling you to help others, you don't have the faith. Proud, haughty Christians are only Christians by name. True Christians are those who know what Jesus did for them and will in turn live their lives to serve Him - by helping others. They don't live so that they may go to heaven. They live that way becasue they know they're saved by grace, and nothing can pay the debt they owe. I think we agree here, we just are speaking in different terms. I know what you are saying. *sighs in relief* Back to the issue of Purgatory, k?
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:16 pm
windswept_fury Good Lord.. I'm actually agreeing with you, and you're supporting me.. I never thought this would happen. Let me go take a deep breath. Weird isn't it? marysservant What is that supposed to mean? True belief? Satan has "true belief!" He was an angel! You'd think he would believe that Christ was the Messiah, he just didn't worship him as God, although he knew he was God. True belief = Faith + works. No, Satan does not have a belief in God, he knows God exists. Secondly, Satan did not intend to/did what was commanded of him.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:19 pm
I found more scriptural evidence.
"nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27) How then, are we, filthy sinners, to enter the kingdom of Heaven? Through Jesus Christ of couse! Jesus does eliminate our sin, but, purgarory makes us so that we CANNOT sin.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:22 pm
chaoticpuppet windswept_fury Good Lord.. I'm actually agreeing with you, and you're supporting me.. I never thought this would happen. Let me go take a deep breath. Weird isn't it? marysservant What is that supposed to mean? True belief? Satan has "true belief!" He was an angel! You'd think he would believe that Christ was the Messiah, he just didn't worship him as God, although he knew he was God. True belief = Faith + works. No, Satan does not have a belief in God, he knows God exists. Secondly, Satan did not intend to/did what was commanded of him. I see what you mean. It was just a misunderstanding, I agree with you on this, I just wouldn't call it "True Belief," that term confuses me. Lol. Anyhow, back to the subject of Purgatory.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:25 pm
marysservant chaoticpuppet windswept_fury Good Lord.. I'm actually agreeing with you, and you're supporting me.. I never thought this would happen. Let me go take a deep breath. Weird isn't it? marysservant What is that supposed to mean? True belief? Satan has "true belief!" He was an angel! You'd think he would believe that Christ was the Messiah, he just didn't worship him as God, although he knew he was God. True belief = Faith + works. No, Satan does not have a belief in God, he knows God exists. Secondly, Satan did not intend to/did what was commanded of him. I see what you mean. It was just a misunderstanding, I agree with you on this, I just wouldn't call it "True Belief," that term confuses me. Lol. Yes, I believe that to get to heaven you must have "true belief" in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, but, I believe that we must have our ability to sin "destroyed" in Purgatory, how else can we enter Heaven, what would stop us from sinning? We would have to be cleansed by God's Holy Fire.
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:33 pm
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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