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 Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:15 pm
Joselle`Stark Just in case nobody caught this one, I think the original poster meant no woman wants to NEED an abortion. No woman really wants to be put in the situation to have to choose, BUT if they find themselves in that situation, we want them to have the RIGHT to choose. Thank you. *bows* That is exactly my point, and it's people who believe that we need to appeal to. Modern politics seem to show that it's one of two types of people who hold the real power in politics: The undecided and the person on the edge. This is the common ground I mean. But, it requires compromise and willingness to listen to what they have to say. I've seen Mulgrew, whom I mentioned earlier, bashed for not being "pro-choice" and saying that abortion does not fit into her philosophy. But, she has never said she would vote to make it illegal, in fact, she thinks it should have some restrictions lifted. She is not an enemy, she merely thinks differently but respects the right to choose. It's the type of thinking that casts her as an enemy that I fear will do the most damage, and could lose the maybe one person whose vote could make a difference.
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:33 pm
Katsuhagi Joselle`Stark Just in case nobody caught this one, I think the original poster meant no woman wants to NEED an abortion. No woman really wants to be put in the situation to have to choose, BUT if they find themselves in that situation, we want them to have the RIGHT to choose. Thank you. *bows* That is exactly my point, and it's people who believe that we need to appeal to. Modern politics seem to show that it's one of two types of people who hold the real power in politics: The undecided and the person on the edge. This is the common ground I mean. But, it requires compromise and willingness to listen to what they have to say. I've seen Mulgrew, whom I mentioned earlier, bashed for not being "pro-choice" and saying that abortion does not fit into her philosophy. But, she has never said she would vote to make it illegal, in fact, she thinks it should have some restrictions lifted. She is not an enemy, she merely thinks differently but respects the right to choose. It's the type of thinking that casts her as an enemy that I fear will do the most damage, and could lose the maybe one person whose vote could make a difference. Having one belief but not holding everyone else too it = Pro-Choice.
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:41 pm
MipsyKitten Having one belief but not holding everyone else too it = Pro-Choice. Exactly. I believe there are far more people on the pro-life side who fall under this definition but do not know it than people who do not. What we need to do is make them realize that and inform them what's at stake, which we are already doing in part.
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:19 pm
Abortion isn't some fun walk threw the park.
It’s a (sometimes) painful surgery, which can cause some physical or emotional scarring.
It's a big decision and it can put a lot of stress on a woman.
No woman I know wants to have to go threw that purely electively. Like, women don't get pregnant just so they can have an abortion.
And if they do, I have to say that they are pretty masochistical, or maybe screwed up mentally.
No woman should want to be in a position in which she is almost forced to have an abortion.
But women want that choice of being able to have an abortion.
So if they do find themselves in a tricky position, they want that option to get them out of it.
That one night of pleasure doesn't cost them a lifetime of hell.
Life is hellish enough with all its punishments and consequences, why do we constantly add more?
I know some of you are going to disagree with me on this.
But in the majority of cases, I view abortion as a self and societal induced punishment.
It's like the way society is set up right now, that if women do enjoy and have sex and end pregnant when society says they shouldn't be so, and then they have to either have to have an abortion or give up their dreams and have the kid.
Sure some women just don't want to have kids at all and abortion is seen as a great thing, but should they have to put up with people who want to take that only option away from that because they deam it immoral in their minds and don't care what other people think or wish?
Everything is just too sexist towards women and child bearing.
Having children is a natural thing, and we've turned it into something that feared, hated and disgusted. Looked down upon.
Babies are so cute and precious and what not “but only when the mother is married virgin with a man to support her!” and it’s oh “so sad and horrible that that 16 year old slut couldn’t keep her legs closed now she’s popping out kids!”
So even though abortion is an option for women, to me it just seems like another punishment for some women.
Because society makes it so you can't have the kid and pursue your dreams without going threw hell and back.
To me that’s just not right.
The whole attitude about women, sex, abortion, child bearing, needs to be totally reset.
We need to start over.
We need to accept people for who and what they are.
Not judge them with morals from some zealot who gets his ideas from a 2000 year old story book that also says it’s okay to kill other people who don’t believe in what you believe.
We need to have more respect for ourselves and others before any of this can happen.
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:51 pm
Trite~Elegy We need to have more respect for ourselves and others before any of this can happen. Exactly. We cannot claim to run on a platform of acceptance of choices while not allowing people within our own community to express their differing opinions and make choices. It is by that which we will lose the people who could really make a difference.
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:10 pm
Kata Samoes I respect your efforts and attempts, I truly do.
However, when a person believes they should control or limit what women do, this cannot be a common ground within. As long as there is the threat of an imposing belief/person, we can't find one.
All because those people are offended by abortion, and whatever else they're trying to strip away from people. BAM, exactly what i was thinking. some of these pro-lifers are beyond any logic or reasoning. they're stuck in their own little world where women can still be sold for two goats and a pig. well, maybe not that far back, but it sure seems like it sometimes. i think maybe if we stepped up and educated some of these people "on the fence" or the pro-lifers that base their pro-life beliefs strictly on propaganda that some zealot handed out to them, we could make a difference (not that we aren't already making a difference, just saying surprised ). i've already educated quite a few people about the facts of abortion. ironically, those people (who used to be my friends) wound up stabbing me in the back. what a funny world it is...
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:57 am
I understand what everyone is trying to say. I think what's not coming across is that the OP wants to limit REASONS that women get abortions - for example, more and better education about birth control. For people who feel that they couldn't support a baby financially even if they really wanted to keep one, there should be more help for them. In situations where women want the child, but feel like they can't have it for whatever reason, I would rather there was more help for them. I think that's what the OP is saying.
There will always be women who do not want children and will abort. I'm fine with that. I will vote for choice.
Ignorance breeds pro-lifers.
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:10 pm
Trite~Elegy Abortion isn't some fun walk threw the park.
It’s a (sometimes) painful surgery, which can cause some physical or emotional scarring.
It's a big decision and it can put a lot of stress on a woman.
No woman I know wants to have to go threw that purely electively. Like, women don't get pregnant just so they can have an abortion.
And if they do, I have to say that they are pretty masochistical, or maybe screwed up mentally.
No woman should want to be in a position in which she is almost forced to have an abortion.
But women want that choice of being able to have an abortion.
So if they do find themselves in a tricky position, they want that option to get them out of it.
That one night of pleasure doesn't cost them a lifetime of hell.
Life is hellish enough with all its punishments and consequences, why do we constantly add more?
I know some of you are going to disagree with me on this.
But in the majority of cases, I view abortion as a self and societal induced punishment.
It's like the way society is set up right now, that if women do enjoy and have sex and end pregnant when society says they shouldn't be so, and then they have to either have to have an abortion or give up their dreams and have the kid.
Sure some women just don't want to have kids at all and abortion is seen as a great thing, but should they have to put up with people who want to take that only option away from that because they deam it immoral in their minds and don't care what other people think or wish?
Everything is just too sexist towards women and child bearing.
Having children is a natural thing, and we've turned it into something that feared, hated and disgusted. Looked down upon.
Babies are so cute and precious and what not “but only when the mother is married virgin with a man to support her!” and it’s oh “so sad and horrible that that 16 year old slut couldn’t keep her legs closed now she’s popping out kids!”
So even though abortion is an option for women, to me it just seems like another punishment for some women.
Because society makes it so you can't have the kid and pursue your dreams without going threw hell and back.
To me that’s just not right.
The whole attitude about women, sex, abortion, child bearing, needs to be totally reset.
We need to start over.
We need to accept people for who and what they are.
Not judge them with morals from some zealot who gets his ideas from a 2000 year old story book that also says it’s okay to kill other people who don’t believe in what you believe.
We need to have more respect for ourselves and others before any of this can happen. I don't see abortion as a punishment. I see it as just an option. On an off-topic note, why do you post in smaller print? It's not the nicest to try and read on here. I keep seeing people doing it and I don't understand why they bother.
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:30 pm
Rinaqa I understand what everyone is trying to say. I think what's not coming across is that the OP wants to limit REASONS that women get abortions - for example, more and better education about birth control. For people who feel that they couldn't support a baby financially even if they really wanted to keep one, there should be more help for them. In situations where women want the child, but feel like they can't have it for whatever reason, I would rather there was more help for them. I think that's what the OP is saying. There will always be women who do not want children and will abort. I'm fine with that. I will vote for choice. Ignorance breeds pro-lifers. That's essentially what I'm trying to say. In a perfect world no woman would ever have to get one, and while I'm not completely idealistic I'd prefer to use education to prevent many of them, since in my opinion that would lessen the strife on both sides and be better for everyone in the end. I'd much rather see a proactive rather than reactive approach to an issue like this where the circumstances surrounding abortions are often ugly and hurtful (but not always).
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:26 pm
I had a debate with a very religious man in my class yesterday about abortion. For our final evaluation in Women's Studies class we were asked to plan a dinner party around a specific women's issue. I chose abortion. He also chose abortion. We had a debate about it, and the one thing that I had to continueously ask him "Where do you come to the idea that your religion belongs in my uterus?" and then he would quiet and wait and begin on something else before shifting back to "god placed this child in the womb because... yada yada and on and on. There was no way for us to find a common ground, even though I would consider myself to be a non-practicing christian, I don't want his extreme belifs influencing the rights that I have to my body. It was actually a really good debate but I think when you consider how much fo the pro-life side is pro-life because they were brought up as Christians or Catholics... there is no common ground to be found. It's all based on God to them, and it's all based on the woman to us... what is the common ground there? Should we leave the decision to the men?! I think not.
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:42 pm
I think a common ground we can find is that we would prefer for abortions not to have to take place in the first place, by advocating for better sex education and access to contraception and information. I think that is a place both sides can work together, since if there doesn't have to be an abortion there is no potential for life (my term for it) that has to be aborted. Abortions usually come about from very bad situations where a mother cannot or does not want to raise a child, and I think both sides would like to see the total number of them go down if the reasons they occur in the first place (lack of education, double standards, lack of contraception) can be addressed. That's what I meant by a proactive approach.
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:31 pm
Tsamikayu I don't see abortion as a punishment. I see it as just an option. On an off-topic note, why do you post in smaller print? It's not the nicest to try and read on here. I keep seeing people doing it and I don't understand why they bother.
not two dirastic life changing routes that may leave many unhappy.
there is no 'in the middle' decision and thats what bother me quite a lot.
Example;
I'm a high schooler with plans to go to college and end up one day with a masters.
but what if in between fulfilling that dream, I meet someone I fall in love with and end up with a surpise pregnancy.
Now sure I want a family in the future and everything so it might come hard to me to have to choose.
Do I drop out and have the kid (you'd have to take time off for giving birth and giving it up for adoption I would never just throw my kids away) or do I abort, and continue on with my education so that I can get a good high paying and stable job so I can fulfill my future families needs?
sure some women try to do both but 75% of the time it ends up in disater or takes way too long with way too many struggles and tears.
society has made it so you can't do both, and I just can't stand that.
It's either one option or the other, no in between.
So could you see how in that angle how it could be seen as a punishment?
I know it's an option, just to let you know.
Smaller print? Because it comes out looking neater and more organised, plus I've found from being on gaia in general (mostly in the GD) that if the type is smaller, the paragraph will be smaller and more people will be inclined to read it all instead of complaning "I DON'T WANT TO READ THAT MUCH!"
Usually I post at a 9 point but I start my threads off on a 10 point.
this right here is a 10 point. is it better then a 9? (which I used on the post you quoted)
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:42 pm
Just FYI I don't have a problem reading Trite-Elegy's words, but I have a LCD monitor that's pretty clear.
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:51 pm
Katsuhagi - I respond with such vehemence because pro-lifers seek to remove MY RIGHTS. If a group of people sought to legislate the inferior social position of black people, removing from them rights white persons have (such as the right to NOT be raped, and the right to NOT have your organs removed without your permission) would you ask black people to kindly sit there and NOT fight with all their hearts and souls to prevent such legislation from passing? Would you call their anger unwarrented aggression? Would you say that when they call these people "racist" and "anti-black" and "against civil rights" that they are being antagonistic? No. You wouldn't. To me it is no different with pro-"lifers" who want to remove my rights and legally classify me as inferior. I'm not at all sorry that fighting with all my soul seems antagonistic to those who would happily see me held prostrate against my will, made a slave - a mere incubator for the government, so that their "moral" sensibilities are not offended. Katsuhagi Joselle`Stark Just in case nobody caught this one, I think the original poster meant no woman wants to NEED an abortion. No woman really wants to be put in the situation to have to choose, BUT if they find themselves in that situation, we want them to have the RIGHT to choose. Thank you. *bows* That is exactly my point, and it's people who believe that we need to appeal to. No, you said no woman wants an abortion. It is entirely different to say no woman really wants an unwanted pregnancy - which is obvious in the most basic ways: A=A, you know. Pro-lifers and Pro-choicers will agree that stopping unwanted pregnancy is important. Pro-lifers will seek to control other people's bodies by legislating abstinence until marriage, forbidding birth control (hey, they've tried). Pro-choicers, as always, will support the individual's right to control his or her own destiny free from constraints of moral systems to which they do not adhere. I'm not sorry to say that there will be a lot of aggression on this front as well - I will not surrender my life to be a slave to a moral system I do not believe in or follow and that has no logical or reasoned justification except "some deity you do not believe in told me that you ought to live this way!" We see how well such legal systems work out in the middle east, now don't we? I'm not interested in compromise with those who would do NOTHING but RESTRAIN me and remove my rights for their own personal pleasure. Sorry, just not interested.
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:00 pm
I still feel you're missing one of my points. I'm not going to try to convince President Bush to become pro-choice, I am not that idealistic. What I feel we need to do is convince those on the pro-life side who might not get an abortion themself but support the rights of others to that we are on the same side. There are always going to people absolutely opposed to abortion, but I believe there are many more who are reasonable if both sides can just talk to each other and drop antagonism. I'm not interested in talking to the people who will take away our rights (remember I'm actually a woman) but rather those who lean more towards the middle, in other words the people we have a chance of reaching.
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